Stone Daemon
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:This really is hilarious btw. How long did it take you to think it up?Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm glad you finally came around to realizing (and evolving your posts accordingly) that Light Form is not the "magic bullet" for all PB build situations. -
Quote:Is that what set you off? Me saying that it makes the shields redundant? I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but it does, from a strictly numbers viewpoint. I'm not sure what else to call it when one power does more than 3 separate powers combined. Just because you don't like that doesn't make it any less true. And just because your, and I quote,Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm not going to bother to over-analyze your reasoning here. It's clear that I've rained on your perma-Light Form parade and for that I apologize.
You keep thinking I hate Light Form. Just because I see no overwhelmingly good reason to "perma" it doesn't mean I hate it. I simply realize that you only need it up maybe 5% of the time, regardless if you're talking about having it on a SO build or not.
Light Form is perfectly fine as an "AV fight" power and it's good that you're recommending it as such. I'm simply picking on your original point that "[you] find that Light Form makes the human shields redundant to the point where there is no need to take them" in a thread where perma-Light Form was never really an option to begin with. I'm glad you finally came around to realizing (and evolving your posts accordingly) that Light Form is not the "magic bullet" for all PB build situations.peacebringer doesn't need any help from lightform except in the toughest of fights does not mean that others might find that it's actually useful from time to time in normal content. Try thinking of someone besides yourself.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
fully level shifted level 50 incarnate who's fully loaded with ATO/PVP IOs
And, as I've said (and kept saying throughout your little tirade), none of that matters for all intents and purposes of this thread. Each post I've mentioned light form, I've said that it was nothing but a survivability boost and panic button. You were all too eager to ignore that and start ranting about me and the evils of perma Light Form, though, and probably chased away the OP with your ranting. Well good job there, hero. Never ONCE did I tell the OP he should try to make it perma, or forgo the use of his shields. That was you, pushing your little agenda. And if you don't believe me, try reading over what I said. Those words aren't going anywhere, and they aren't edited.
It's nice that you're finally starting to read what I write, but you'll forgive me if I laugh at your "graceful" way of conceding the point.
Edit to add:
You know what, I finally realized what caused this whole mess. You took my reply to you out of context at the bottom of the first page. At least, it's either that or you just like derailing threads. Or both. -
Quote:Whatever you say.Originally Posted by Lothic
And eventually they might even realize that these powers are probably -too- good for their own good. I've seen many lesser useful things than this be nerfed in the past. *shrugs*
The only thing that's a mystery is why you're making such a huge deal out of finding excuses to dismiss everything I say. Did I kill your cat or something? It darted out in front of me, I swear I couldn't stop in time.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
PBs were -designed- to be primarily team oriented. Cosmic Balance only works with teams. If I'm not using Dwarf Form then why on earth would I be the main team member taking Alphas and/or Tanking for the team? Was this question about PBs and Mezs really -that- much a mystery to you?
I thought your "point" was to tell the OP he didn't need to perma it? Which wouldn't be possible for him anyways. Yeah, very productive.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
And there's -my- point about this. I never said I NEVER use Light Form. I simply said I only use it when I NEED it.
I'm simply poking fun at the uber min/maxers who love to "perma" things that don't actually need to be "perma". I understand the idea that it might be a challenge to build a build that can do these things, but just because they can be done doesn't mean it's absolutely necessary.
It's strength can make them redundant, yes. Here, take a look at what I actually said:Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
Your main argument has been "Light Form makes Human shields redundant".
Quote:Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Granted, on an SO only build it will be more of a panic button, since you can't perma it. But it is still a great power to have, and still useful on an SO build. Perhaps arguably more useful, actually, since the OP seems to be premium and wouldn't have access to the padded mitigation that bonus sets provide or incarnate powers.Wow, good job repeating what I've been saying all along. Seriously.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
That may be true, but NOT if its NOT perma, which probably would not be the case in the OP's SO build.
Oh look, you can read. Sort of? I'm not sure where I've said that it would be anything more than a panic button on his build (more of your issues with Light Form coloring your reading, judging by your use of the word "crutch"), if you would be so kind as to show me where I said that I will ensure to fix it.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
You actually mentioned that this is not possible with a SO build yet you kept stressing the "wonderfulness" of Light Form like it was anything -other- than a crutch power that's only truly useful during AV fights.
O RLY? Please provide me a quote from me that says (or even implies) that. While you're searching my words line by line, take a gander at the build I gave to the OP. You're the only one wasting time talking about perma LF when it's not possible for the OP.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
You talk of people swinging out on tangents to confuse the OP - I'd argue you were trying to sell a vision of Light Form (a perma'd vision) that unfortuantely had no place in this discussion.
Seriously Lothic, if you want to continue this pointless tangent we're having right now, please make a new thread on the kheld forums. Something titled "I hate Light Form and everyone who uses it." I'll be sure to drop by. -
Good stuff, thanks. I was getting ready to just /bug it, myself, if I didn't hear anything.
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So I looked at your build, Aries...
It needs a lot of work. You've wasted many slots on enhancing defense debuff in your attacks, as well as knockback and even stun. I would highly recommend changing all of those, and educating yourself on enhancement base values, so you can know what is worth enhancing, all while keeping in mind the primary purpose of your attacks.
I took a rough stab at it:
This is closer to what it should be like, but it isn't optimum.
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Quote:You should definitely give it a shot. They're quite different beasts, you may find you like one more than the other. But I would recommend taking that shade as far as you can, and don't give up early. The lower levels can be harder on newbie kheld players.Originally Posted by Hermeneas
Now, semi-related question. Would trying a Peacebringer be a horrible idea? I know that the majority of people seem to prefer Warshades, but as I look over what Peacebringers have to offer, they really seem more up my alley - self-contained, and more of a toggle and go mindset, particularly if I go human-form.
Perhaps trying my hand at one of them would prove an easier transition than going straight to Warshades? -
It looks like you main out of Virtue, so you may want to look up Dechs and hang with him, see if he can spot anything out of the ordinary. And of course, I would be remiss not to add an invitation to join Kheldian Fridays on Protector if you ever get the chance.
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Quote:It's not exploiting if they knowingly gave it the same recharge and strength that Eclipse has had, for years. Unless you're trying to say that they don't know about Eclipse? Because I can guarantee you a lot more people have been perma-ing that for a lot longer than Light Form.Originally Posted by Lothic
Sure but anytime "virtually everyone" semi-exploits a power like this for an AT it does raise red flags for the Devs.
Did I say it was? Because I don't recall that I did, so I'm not sure why you are arguing this point.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm not assuming perma-Light Form is doomed for unavoidable nerfage quite yet, but I will stand by my experience that using perma-Light Form is not -absolutely- necessary for a good Human-form PB build either.
Yes. And they made it better.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
If by some circumstance Light Form does get itself nerfed it won't be the end of the world for me - I'm simply reminding you the Devs have already tinkered with it once...
And there you go. Unless you're taking alphas and tanking for the team in human form, of course you're not getting mezzed.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
As I implied most of the time I team with my PB
Again, I'm not quite sure why you're putting words in my mouth, but if you are that desperate to argue with someone, you might want to check what the other person is actually saying. Regardless of what you believe me to be saying, I don't actually disagree with anything you've said about Light Form so far. What I have said is that has aspects to it that make it more useful than the shields in many ways. Enough to make the shields redundant, but again, not on a SO build.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
Also the few times I solo with this PB I keep things set above the "standard fight as 1/1 hero " settings. Mezzing for a level 50 PB should never be a serious problem for any competent build regardless of Light Form usage. Sorry to hear you seem to think that you must have perma-Light Form to save you from all that.
I don't know how to say this without offending you, and saying "No offense" usually implies the opposite, so I'll just have to say it with this warning label so you know I'm trying to couch my words.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
My main point directly applies to the OP as far as Light Form goes. Not only can you "suffer" with not having Light Form perma'd but it's actually quite easy to live without it because again it's not actually -necessary- to be perma. I'm simply concluding that people sometimes get obsessed with things like perma-doms and perma-Light Form when in reality those things can, at the very least, be wasted overkill.
Your main point seems to be that you have a chip in your shoulder about Light Form, and you want everyone else to know that you are uber enough to never need it. That's great. Nobody NEEDS light form. Nobody needs hasten, for that matter. There are a lot of things people don't need, but are still useful. My main point, on the other hand, is that it is a useful power, and the OP should take another look at it to make sure he knows what it does before dismissing it. -
It sounds like you're doing things right. I imagine it's either your build or certain enemies giving you issues. And sometimes, just plain bad luck. Hang in there, it'll get better...and in the meantime, try to get us your build when you can so we can look it over for you.
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Quote:Eclipse seems to have survived long enough, and it's virtually the same (except better, since it covers the psi hole).Originally Posted by Lothic
This is exactly why I fear that sooner or later it will be nerfed. Let's just say I'm a little bit reticent to rely on that one "miracle" power for everything. Just seems like the Devs let the current version of that power be a little too good for its own good.
Stacking mezz will do it, but it's frequency will depend on what difficulty you run at and your playstyle. I can think of a few reasons why your PB wouldn't get mezzed;Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
My PB almost never get mezzed so this is a wash...
Dwarf Form, which defeats the purpose of this whole argument, because your shield toggles will drop. (Light Form will still be active, though.)
Clarion, which doesn't matter because the OP won't have access to incarnates.
A conservative playstyle and/or low difficulty, where you won't run into the risk of getting mezzed as often.
Well, that's nice for you. Doesn't help the OP much, though. You'll have to remember the build he's dealing with won't be the same as your "AV munching billion influence build."Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
Obviously it's useful. But I still usually only really need it when I'm facing AVs solo though. With the Human shields up I rarely need it any other time.
P.S. Just to be clear my PB is a fully level shifted level 50 incarnate who's fully loaded with ATO/PVP IOs. Let's just say it's having -no- problem not using perma Light Form.
I believe we've derailed this long enough for the OP to get an idea of what Light Form does, though. WanderingAries, you may want to look at the kheldian section of the forums, there is currently a thread up going over an SO-only build for peacebringers. It's not exactly what you're looking for (to your specifications for this build), but perhaps it will help you get an idea until someone else posts something to help you here? Just, uh, ignore the tangents and trolling over there, eh?
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Quote:Light Form alone lets you easily hit the resist caps when slotted right, so yeah, I imagine having the shields on top of that would make it there too.Originally Posted by Lothic
Thing is that with both Light Form -and- the Human shields you can easily hit the RES caps.
They do get suppressed, though.Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
(BTW they don't detoggle when MEZed)
In the end, all of this is moot because the OP will not be able to perma it. I think you agree with me that the power itself is useful, though, yes?Quote:Originally Posted by Lothic
I understand a lot of people like to try to keep Light Form perma, but to be honest there really is no need for that, especially if you normally run your PB in teams which (let's face it) is what their Cosmic Balance was designed for. -
Quote:Part of it might be that the game is just simply tough on warshades before you get your pets and unchain, but that is only a factor. Tell me, do you leverage Gravity Well to knock out the problem targets before you start the AoE madness? And are you making sure to switch back to human to use Stygian Circle whenever you start to lose health? I've found that it's easy to get into the mindset where you just want to race them and blast them before they kill you--but if you forgo switching back and forth to keep yourself healed and such you suffer a greater DPS loss being dead than you would by switching to keep yourself alive.Originally Posted by Hermeneas
I'm running at +0/x3 right now. I attempted to bump it up a bit higher in the hopes of having more corpses to fuel my Mires/Stygian Circle, but that only led to me faceplanting faster.
Generally, my strategy is as follows:
With a combination of Shadow Cloak and Sprint with a +Stealth IO, I get myself into the best possible position to target the majority of any given group. I then use Gravitic Emanation to stun them/knock the stragglers into the rest of the group. That's followed up by my Mires, and then a quick shift to Nova to lay down the AoE goodness. Then I use a mixture of Nova and human attacks (I'm only recently finding slots to spare to devote to the Dwarf attacks, so I believe only Smite is enhanced) to mop things up, assuming that I haven't been beaten to death yet.
Generally, that works fairly well. Things die, I move on with my life. But there are times that, for reasons that I can't begin to fathom, things are killing me before I can kill them. It happened occasionally earlier on, but it's happening more and more often as time passes.
I don't actually have access to Mids right now, but if I recall correctly, I'm running with about ~40% global recharge and Hasten. That's the most noteworthy thing, as my build was centered around recharge bonuses - I'd like to get some more defense in there, but given my budget (read: I'm broke as hell), I can't afford purples, so getting the amount of recharge I wanted meant that I couldn't fit in many defense bonuses at all, let alone ones that I would have room for at my current level.
Honestly, I'm thinking that it might just be that the play style isn't compatible with my way of doing things. The closest I've ever come to relying on bodies/enemies to consistently heal/buff me was using Dark Regeneration on my Staff/Dark Brute, and even taking that into consideration, I'm not used to branching out of my 'toggle up and hit things until they die' mindset. Could that be the problem?
Which is why building defense before you're adept at playing the AT could be a bad thing, and handicaps you from learning key survival traits. -
Quote:Well, he may also be confusing it with the way it used to work, which essentially trapped you in the puffball of energy until it wore off. It no longer works that way, thank goodness.Originally Posted by Lothic
I suppose if you were completely new to the Peacebringer concept that the name of the power "Light Form" might confuse you into thinking it was a completely separate shapechanged form just like Nova/Dwarf. At least that seems to be the mistake that might have been made here. *shrugs*
To be honest over the years I've found that between Light Form and the other various human-form PB shield toggles that Dwarf Form is almost redundant, especially as a level 50 incarnate. But before level 50 I suppose it can still be useful.
It's quite the opposite for me, though. I find that Light Form makes the human shields redundant to the point where there is no need to take them. It's better than them in just about every way. It can't be detoggled/supressed, it provides higher resistance, and it boosts your recovery. Granted, on an SO only build it will be more of a panic button, since you can't perma it. But it is still a great power to have, and still useful on an SO build. Perhaps arguably more useful, actually, since the OP seems to be premium and wouldn't have access to the padded mitigation that bonus sets provide or incarnate powers. -
Quote:I may be misreading this, so please correct me if I'm wrong...but you're under the impression that Light Form works like Nova/Dwarf? It's just a click power with a minor crash that greatly boosts survivability. I would think you would want it on what is supposed to be a tankier build.Originally Posted by WanderingAries
I guess it got missed in the stream of posts, but I mentioned that I'd focus questions on a Dual-form (Human/Crab) build First and when that's settled I'd stear the thread towards a secondary tri-form (Human/Crab/Light) build.
That explains the few dedicated powers, but not the slotting choices. The secondary effects you were enhancing weren't really worth dedicating slots to, in more ways than one.Quote:As for the example build from the brute, I think the decision was based on a combination of the desire to bulster my attacks and the limited tray space I use. Without a picture it's kinda hard to see, but I allot about 6 spots for attacks (the right half of tray 1) and use the 2nd tray to hold my defensive/AOE powers. The third tray holds all of my accolaids (a sort of machine gun tray for when I pull out all the stops on an AV). If I have more than 6 attacks it gets hard for me to manage the toon. Since I use the mouse sparingly (dexterity issues), I also restrict the number of click-to-aim-powers and that makes for a few sacrifices on my buffing toons. I hope that makes sense. -
I'm curious, what difficulty are you running at, Hermeneas? I find that there is a delicate balance while soloing--too little and there aren't enough targets to use Stygian Circle to keep yourself alive, too many (pre final build) and you go splat.
Beyond that, your build and chain/strategy (and what types of enemies this is happening to you with) will explain the rest. -
Quote:You've explained everything else, but why not light form?Originally Posted by WanderingAries
I'm looking at the Mids screen now and I've started looking at powers that I Won't take. IE: things related to group fly and probably not the team heal as I'll be treating this more like a Tank than a Healer. I think that when I'm in Human form I'll be using Ranged powers since the Crab is Melee geared.
Not Taking:
Light Form
Also, and this hopefully doesn't reflect on your plans for your PB, but it looks like you're enhancing just about every single aspect in each attack that is possible to enhance in your brutes build (tohitdebuff, taunt, immobilize, etc). Why? And you gimped your Siphon Life, which one of your two strongest attacks? -
Quote:Obviously, it's time for some Protoss action.Originally Posted by Kederren
My luck, it'll be Nids/Zerg.
No, they did that in DA
Maybe Eldar.
...what? We have those? They're called Rikti?
...
Nevermind then, carry on. -
Quote:Sure, sure, and Ex just happened to not get on until 2 hours after start time.Originally Posted by Zaloopa
So believe it or not, I didn't ditch the Synapse run on purpose.
Even Sept decided he would rather help someone move rather than join us. But it's ok, this week we'll have a Yin, perhaps followed by something else as well. -
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I haven't seen this addressed anywhere else, but is Lifegiving Spores detoggling when mezzed WAI? As it doesn't affect the enemy, I would think that it should only suppress, but it shuts off every time I get held/stunned/etc.
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Quote:Ah, good to know. I thought something was off there.Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Just a quick note (4 days later :B), Mids actually has the incorrect endurance cost in Lifegiving Spores.
Lifegiving Spores actually drains 1.04 endurance every 4 seconds (so about 0.26 a second, which is about half the cost of typical support set toggles). It grants 1% Endurance every 4 seconds though, so even unslotted, as long as the caster stands in the AoE, it only costs about 0.01 endurance a second to keep on.
I trust Omega to know what MM was looking for, so I tried to leave his build choices as is.Quote:Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Anyway... out of curiousity, why does neither build include Regrowth? -
Don't know if it's already been discussed, but is Lifegiving Spores being detoggled when mezzed WAI?
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Quote:Even if that's true, you're splitting hairs. Their damage cannot be avoided or resisted by any existing powers.Originally Posted by Tidbit Jr.
If memory serves, the crystal titan and hamidon do their own kinds of damage that aren't unique so much as missing from the roster, which (h)ambrosia grant resistance to.
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Pictures from the few people that didn't ditch the tf:
Next week is Yin. -
HB;CR
(Hurt Brain; Couldn't Read)
For anyone coming in after me, I believe what the OP is trying to say is that he wants to be able to buy purple recipes with PVP rep.
