Stillhart

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Post Deleted by Moderator_08

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Wait, you can place people on ignore on a forum?? That's awesome! That could be the best invention since putting people on ignore in-game (which I use liberally!)

Ahh, sweet blessed silence from the trolls. Cat, you're my new hero.

Post deleted by Moderator 08

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1. Yes, this can be done.

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THIS IS WHY I CAN'T AFFORD NICE THINGS!!!

I wonder if we'd be able to explain these points (takes too long, isn't all that profitable) to a "marketeer-hater" and have it "get through".

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This is one of the big myths I wanted to debunk in my ill-fated guide. I get sick of seeing this silly example of market manipulation over and over again...In the two weeks I've been on this forum, I must have explained it 3 or 4 times already (not all in this forum, btw).

I've given up on that idea. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Especially when Rush Limbau...err i mean Another Fan is there telling everyone that we shouldn't be leading them to water cuz only [censored] and democrats do that.

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This contradicts the prevailing wisdom

Be prepared to be told how what you did does not satisfy the criteria.

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Prevailing wisdom says wasting all your slots and salvage inventory to make 6m inf per day is ridiculous. He just proved that it can be done, which is cool, but he also proved why we don't bother.

BTW, I don't know what the criteria of the challenge were. I haven't been here that long. But I did just win a lowball bid (~5m) for a recipe that sells for 50m-80m crafted. I'd rather use my slots for that.

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Sometimes I would be quite happy to pay 500K for a Spell Scroll. Are you saying you wouldn't like to sell me one for 500K?

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On the subject of gouging, I find myself in need of some temporal tracers for one of my flipping projects. I looked at the last 5 and they were selling at around 100K with a low bid of 5K. So, just for fun, I put in a bid for 10,100 and got an insta-buy. All you have to do is outbid the flippers, not pay the max price in order to get your salvage an an opportunistic price.

Oh, and in the time it took me to type this post, the rest of my stack of 10 had filled. Yup, that's some hardcore gouging going on by some ebil marketeer, I tell you what! Now just imagine if I turned around and listed my stack for 99,760 and sold each for 100K. That's a profit of approx. 850K. Not a bad chunk of change.

Edit: By the time I'd posted there were a few more posts so I added the quote for reference.

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FYI, one of my alts has been flipping those. I log on to her twice per day, put up a buy order for 10 at ~1k and a sell order for 10 at ~35k. It's one of several pieces I've been flipping...so rather than put all my eggs into one basket, I diversify. Anyways, if they sell for 100k, it's none of my doing.

You should put the links in on your OP in that thread. I missed the point of this post the first time thru.

More feedback later when I have time to read through the whole thing.

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Please allow me to present a different perspective (and like I've stated before I consider the market to be a necessity).

For every "winner" making billions in the market there is a "loser"... directly or indirectly. And in some cases, the "loser" is all of us. Here's a thought: Do you enjoy the whole inf farmer spam e-mail deluge? Why do these guys exist? Where's all that inf they are selling going? So who gets bothered by what farmers do and who rings up the inf cash register in the end? [Edit add: And this, if I read it right, is what was being touted here: "Despite the exchange rate, make billions in the market to convert to prestige to improve your base."]

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Okay wait, you just jumped from gold-spammers to this thread?? I'm not following that logic at all.

And just to be clear, you read it wrong. The intent of this thread was to discern if people actually used the exchange so we could determine if it was an effective money sink. Someone in ONE post mentioned how he could help people earn more money if they wanted and the whole thread blew up.

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The whole market thing is a game within a game. The extent you play it and enjoy it is up to you. I bear no malice toward those that do [edit add: legitimately that is]

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You could equally say that the whole running missions thing is a game within a game. I could log on every day and run no missions, just street-sweep or market or pvp or MA etc etc.

Sorry, I just wanted to clarify some points because I think you're being a bit unfair to the original intent of this thread.

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Hey guys....hoping this is the right forum. Anywho I've come across some LoTGs from the merit vendors and I was intending on posting them on the BM but I decided to announce on this forum if anyone would like to purchase them directly. 80 Mil each, they're the Recharge ones you get from the merit vendor. I can meet you anywhere red side in Virtue

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I'd like to buy all of them.

On another completely unrelated note, I have LoTG's for sale for 160m each. They're red side on Virtue.

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Place your bids ladies and gentlemen, 10 inf is what I'll be asking.

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Blue or red?

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I find it highly amusing that I tried being the voice of reason for a week and even tried getting this thread back on track several times and none of the market-haters said anything...but the one time I take a swipe at stupid people doing stupid [censored], Another_fan is there to flame me. JUST IN CASE we weren't sure if he was a troll or just a bad mix of passionate and condescending...

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This makes the first time I have said anything in reply to your comments on this thread. Would you care to show were I flamed you ?

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You're right, I apologize, it wasn't you who directly replied to my post.

You did, however reply to a reply to my post and called me a curmudgeon, which hurt my feelings. I'm not THAT old yet. Call me an [censored] if you must, please.

Also you flamed other people...though I tend to agree with the fact that a lot of people you flame are rude to you first and usually deserve it, you do tend to invite the rudeness with your constantly condescending attitude and frequent claims to moral high-ground as if the condescension is all in our heads. There's a reason people around here don't like you and it's not your opinion, it's your delivery.

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Now see what you started Stillhart?! A troll invasion. Great! And the cleaning lady was JUST here. We'll be cleaning the troll poop off the ceiling for weeks. Nice going ... trying to make a "guide" to "help" people!

/Sarcasm

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I find it highly amusing that I tried being the voice of reason for a week and even tried getting this thread back on track several times and none of the market-haters said anything...but the one time I take a swipe at stupid people doing stupid [censored], Another_fan is there to flame me. JUST IN CASE we weren't sure if he was a troll or just a bad mix of passionate and condescending...

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because I can see bunches of 5001 price buyouts that weren't there 30 minutes ago , I then put money down all the way up to 100,000 and could not buy 1. Because the person who did it bragged about it in the channel which caused the discussion last night.

I think the Dev's should make Salvage available at the Uni much like the IO recipes, this way I can pay cheaper at WW or a high fixed price if I don't want to play this gouging game.

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Don't worry, the whiners have won again. Patch notes for i15 say you can buy common salvage with tickets now.

BTW, if you'd waited a few minutes with a buy order up for 5002, you could have gotten a whole stack. Don't blame the market or the gouger for your impatience and short-sightedness. If everyone just left their 5002 orders up instead of creeping up to 100k, they'd never sell at 100k, he'd be out his listing fees and relisting lower. But I guess that just makes too much sense. Must have it NAO!!!

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And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.

Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.

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That's just fallacious right there. If a flipper can get it for e.g. 30m, so can anyone else. You don't have to be a market-lover to see that!

Well I tried keep my thread on track. It's too bad this helpful forum has to devolve into petty squabbles on every [censored] thread.

I now understand why all the marketeers voluntarily take on the "ebil" mantle. The choice it to either relish in it or have it thrust upon you regardless by market-haters who confuse the people for the mechanic. If we have to be labeled ebil either way, why not be a dickhead to everyone who comes in here spouting ridiculous [censored]? Being offensive is much more fun than being defensive and it seems that's the only choice marketeers have.

Well [censored] all you luddites. If you're too [censored] stupid and lazy to make money on the market, you deserve to have a terrible play experience. And if you hate this game (and guess what, the market is PART of the game!!!) and yet continue to play, you deserve to be unhappy and bitter. You reap what you sow.

Anyhow, I'm done with this thread and probably the whole market forum for a while. I'm off to go make casual players miserable, steal from the poor, manipulate prices, force the devs to make the game less fun for everyone else, block reasonable changes to the game that would make it better, and club some baby seals. o/

Well...this thread certainly turned left at Albuquerque. I really didn't intend, or WANT, this thread to turn into a market vs anti-market discussion. Quite frankly, thre are people on BOTH sides of the discussion that are way off base; rather than helping their sides, they are just pissing the other side off.

My whole idea with this apparently-forgotten guide is to have OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE statements that cannot be argued. These can be used as backing arguments in any discussion on the subject going forward. This means no opinions, no hearsay, no anecdotal evidence, etc. I see now that it will be very difficult to achieve this, but I hope that I can get at least SOME factual data out there.

I know that people will ignore it if they don't want to hear it. That's fine. But I'd rather not have to explain for the Nth time that "playing the market" and "playing the game" are the same thing or that people actively making money on the market, for the most part, are actually bringing prices closer to equilibrium.

Once those facts are established, then we can move on to arguments about how people who hate the market are lazy and impatient and people who love the market are capitalist pig-dogs.

So, can we push this never-ending argument out of this thread and try to collect some facts? If not, well, that in itself will show something, no?

PS - Thanks to those that already contributed facts, way back earlier in the thread.

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There's a considerable amount of emotional investment involved in people's antimarket stances.

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The people who are anti-farming are even worse. These people (from both 'anti' groups [market and farming]) will simply here the word market or farm and automaticly stop listening and proclaim how either have ruined the game.

For those who believe, no proof is needed. For those who do not believe, no proof is possible.

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Yep, same for people anti-pvp (note not like me not interested in PvP but really anti it) and a lot of other parts of the game they view as wrong with it.

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I like PvP but I think the anti-pvp people have a point. I think the reason LOTRO is such a fun, balanced game is that they have a policy to NEVER make class balance changes because of pvp. Pvp balance changes can really [censored] up the game for pve folks and I really think that's inappropriate in a game that doesn't cater specifically to pvp.

Off topic, but I'm drunk and thought I'd chime in on it. Now to go flip some salvage that I bought for 1k each and sell it for 50k each. MWAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!

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Hmmm perhaps I could write a guide that leaves out flipping.

I could call it the "A Morally Superior guide to profitting at an Altruistic Wentworths."

Anyone think that would fly?

I wouldn't do a red side guide since the red side folks are SUPPOSED to be evil and take advantage where they can.

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That's the other peeve of mine around here. "We're supposed to be super heroes! We shouldn't be profiting at anyone else's expense!" *rolls eyes* Give me a [censored] break. RP is fun and all, but it shouldn't inform game design decisions...and fortunately it didn't.

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Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone. It's more of a public service to US, the people that are constantly explaining the same things over and over. I'd rather be able to point someone to a guide that does its best to remain factual and objective on basic misconceptions. It's a tool that anyone can use to convert or not as they please. A reference.

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Sounds more like a FAQ geared towards debunking.

Which would be a good idea, because, as you've pointed out, a lot of the same things get explained over and over and over again in here. And that can be a problem...

Answer 1: "Well, I can certainly understand why you've developed that perception, my friend, but, I assure you, it just isn't the case. Please allow me to explain..."

Answer 10: "No. You're wrong. And I'll prove it..."

Answer 25: "No no no no no no. False. Wrong. You think that's how it works? Prove it. Otherwise, shove off. You're talking crap."

Answer 50: "You're a [censored] moron. That is all."

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This is 100% exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks!

And here I was just about to post how you guys are no flippin help at all!

Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone. It's more of a public service to US, the people that are constantly explaining the same things over and over. I'd rather be able to point someone to a guide that does its best to remain factual and objective on basic misconceptions. It's a tool that anyone can use to convert or not as they please. A reference.

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Someone named this sort of thing "Flopping." It actually increases the supply of cheap salvage, which allows other people to do more "fun stuff." I believe the Devs are in favor of more fun for more people.

Tendentious, irrelevant story: When ED hit, I sent a tell to CuppaJo saying something like, "You know that [some 2-person combo] will be just as tough as [some individual build] was?" She went, "Oh... I'll look into it." At some point I decided, with no feedback, that "two people playing together to become uber" was something they wanted to encourage, because it was social and more interesting than "one person who doesn't need you, but is letting you tag along to increase spawn size."

So my view is "more fun, more social, more good= encouraged."

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Good points. I was looking at it more as using dual-accounts to get rewards in a way that wasn't intended by the devs, which is the definition of an exploit IINM. But I can see why they wouldn't necessarily care in this case.

BTW, I'm not saying *I* care either...just pointing out that it seems pretty 'sploity to me.

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There's a considerable amount of emotional investment involved in people's antimarket stances.

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This is the exact reason I want to get this guide out there. Separating fact from opinion is the first step in hopefully getting people to feel better about the market...or at least not want to spit on you. And I really don't want to explain why marketeers don't care about common salvage (or whatever) 100 times.

I know I've also seen Nethergoat denounce the lazy/impatient a million times and it'd be nice to get his valid point down in an objective and informative manner so it doesn't piss so many people off.

D

So I'm thinking of putting together a guide with common misconceptions about the market in CoX and facts to debunk them. I'd like to get feedback from you, the ebil ones, about what kinds of things you think belong in there, threads with good info, etc so I'm not recreating the wheel. I see a lot of the same fallacies going around and it'd be nice to have a guide to point people at and say, "You're wrong about X and this link shows why," rather than having to explain anew every time.

What do you guys think?

Some things I've been thinking about:

Myth: Rich marketeers ruin the common salvage market
Fact: Rich marketeers don't bother because of the low profits and limited slot usage, proof, etc etc

Myth: People who make money on the market cause prices to go up
Fact: Pull some good stuff from the inflation thread

Myth: "Casual" players can't afford stuff because of evil marketeers
Fact: etc etc

Myth: Average players are worse off because of the market
Fact: etc etc

Myth: Marketeers feed on the poor
Fact: Marketeers feed on the IMPATIENT, etc etc

Maybe throw in some simple money-making strategies or point to some of the awesome existing guides for this stuff.

I'll post more as they come to me. I'm at work and can't put a ton of thought into it right this second. Thoughts?

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Just a small issue, you seem to recognize that not all RL economic models work in the game enviroment, then you try to use a RL model to claim that the market in our game is not a zero-sum game.

This is just not true.

The reason why RL isn't zero-sum doesn't have an equivilent in the game. Market PvP is not a fallacy, and it is a zero-sum game.

If you take two players and they only use the market, and do nothing else in the game, their only profits can come from the buying and selling of other player's drops. They can not add to the total Inf supply, they can not add to the total number of items available, they don't perform any of the functions that in RL makes trading a better than zero-sum affair.

So, I'd say on that point, it is just flat out wrong to say there is no Market PvP. I can't take the proceeds of my marketeering and open up a more efficent Enhancement factory. I just keep buying and selling the enhancments that come out of everyone else's factories (their actual playing of the game), and those factories churn out at a fixed rate (essentially).

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Okay fair enough, given what I said, you make a good point. I think I failed to express my point as intended though.

The point I was trying to get across is that everyone can benefit from the market (in this game) without anyone feeling like they're losing. This is because there are so many people out there who don't CARE that they're throwing inf away. They pay millions more for crafted items than they're worth just because they can. As Nethergoat said, if I take 1m inf from everyone in the game with 1b inf, I'm rich and they're STILL rich.

So, technically speaking, the market in this game is actually LESS than zero-sum because of the transaction fees. However, the way the economy works doesn't make it feel like that at all. People can get rid of stuff for good prices and people can buy stuff they normally wouldn't have access to. It's a win/win in that sense.

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Long post warning. Tl;dr is the last line.

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This going to be a long response. I think you make some good points, but I think you are also confusing several issues that aren't related.

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1) I am not an economist but having lived in the 'low income' bracket for most of my life I feel qualified to speak on it.

2) I see the current system as unfair to the 'little guys' (new players or players new to the Market...not always the same thing). More on this below.

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Unlike real life, there are no barriers to entry in this game. You get exactly as much as you put into it. A person may be low income their whole life because there's just no opportunity to change that due to the way the RL works. In CoX, you can start a new character and have a million inf by level 6 easily. I've done this on several characters at this point and I've been playing for less than two months.

It's important to keep this distinction in mind...we're talking about a video game, not RL, and the rules are different.

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3) All arguements of 'Market PvP' are wasted on me because every other facet of PvP in the game is voluntary. Yes, you can still choose not to use the Market but unlike PvP the Market is such a large and pervasive part of the overall game now ignoring it would be like driving a car with 3 tires.

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The concept of "market pvp" is a fallacy. Before WW2 and Bretton Woods, the world was fully Mercantilistic...RL market pvp if you will...and believed the market was a zero sum game, i.e. my gain was necessarily someone else's loss. We've since discovered that that's completely untrue and that's why you're seeing a proliferation of free trade agreements all over the world. I'm not gonna go into details, there are plenty of macroeconomics books that talk about this. Suffice it to say, the idea that all marketeering is "market pvp" is a fallacy.

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4) I heavily favor taxing the rich, in RL and in the game. Why? Because they can afford to pay it pure and simple.

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*sigh* I'm not gonna touch this one, it's far too emotionally loaded. It doesn't make sense in the context of this game for multiple reasons tho. Refer back to my first point.

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5) My problem is not with just the Market but the manner in which it functions with the Crafting System as well.

6) The Markets from redside and blueside should have been merged from the start. Barring that they should have been merged some time ago. As it is the redside Market, a big attraction to some players, is very sluggish. This directly the number of redside players which directly affects the amount of redside content.

Ok, on to the meaty part. I personally think that the Crafting system is borked because some higher-level Recipes require salvage attainable only by lower-level toons. When a lvl 40-something toon needs an Alc Silver or other piece of Common Salvage he thinks nothing of paying 50-100k for it because he can earn that much in a few minute's of play. If a character in the teens or 20s needs it they may have trouble competing with the price and get shut out.

A real world analogy would be bread. Yes, the wealthy still buy bread, however some of them buy the ultra-pure and expensive designer bread (yes, designer bread...) that lower or middle income people avoid simply due to the price. You never hear of someone buying all of the bread in town and then flipping it at a huge profit.

Personally I think that all recipes should require salvage that only drops in the level range of the recipe. Purples need more high-end salvage and are a good example of this to me.

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I think this is a great point, but not for the reasons you specified. Read back on some of my other posts in this thread for why people can't really manipulate pricing effectively in this game. Basically, all you have to do is leave a buy order up for like a day and you can get any salvage you want for a reasonable price. I still agree think that this is a great idea, it would cause people to be less dependent on the market and give people less reason to irrationally hate it.

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My other problem with the Market is manipulation. I have always felt since I9 launched that there should be Market controls to prevent a few characters from cornering the Market on a single commodity. Something listed as Common should always BE Common in that there should ALWAYS be a supply of it on the Market. No one player or cartel should be able to bottom the Market on anything.

Another RL bread analogy: If Don Trump came to my home town and decided to buy all of the bread in town in a single day he likely could...and at the store's price. Wow...no more bread for anyone else...for that day. More bread would be delivered that day or the next. If he continued to do so the local bread makers would see the golden goose for what it was and begin making more bread because the stores hate running out. In the real world supply always increases to meet demand unless the supply in controlled by the powerful few.

Now in-game we have the problem that supply does not increase with demand thus prices can be manipulated. This often hurts the little guys more because they do not have the earning power of the bigger ones. I think this stifles the whole Crafting system. Sure, you might get lucky and sell a recipe or salvage for a million at lvl 10 and be rolling in it. But what if you want those lvl 20 IOs a few levels later but can't afford to craft them because all of the salvage for them has spiked over 50k?

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Again, price spikes for common salvage last hours in this game, not days. Leave a buy order up overnight and you'll be sure to get them at a normal price. And again, it's really REALLY not hard to make enough inf at early levels to invalidate the whole "50k for common salvage is too much!" argument.

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To sum it all up I think the Market should be designed in such a way that there is ALWAYS a minimum number of salvage pieces available. If the amount gets too low the Market generates more to meet the minimum number at whatever the Vendor price is. Common items would have a minimum of 1000 pieces, Uncommon 100 and Rares 10. This would also benefit Redside with it's sluggish Market.

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Admittedly I have only been around for a couple months, but this seems really off to me...I have NEVER tried to buy any salvage that WASN'T available on the market in the amounts you just specified. Using a technique like this to control prices is a waste of their time because market forces do it for them. I just haven't seen the type of massive manipulation you're attempting to correct with this idea. I think that if it were put into the game, it would have no effect whatsoever on prices because you're basing the idea off a false premise.

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I don't think we should increase fees or anything like that at all. I simply think that the best way to curtail the amount of Inf in the game is to reduce the amount that can be earned at the top end.

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True, since this is the main place that all that inf is generated, as has been stated many times in this thread.
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Since many more times the Inf can be earned in the Market than actual play I feel this is where it needs to begin.

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Whoa back up. Earning info on the market isn't the same as generating inf by killing things. When you play the market, you're destroying inf thru transaction fees. You're not actually contributing to the inflation or deflation or whatever it is this thread is about.
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Lower the amount of cornering the Market on Common Salvage the the overall Inf amount in the system will go down.

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Huh? This doesn't follow logically. See my last point.[ QUOTE ]
This holds true for anything that would only be useful for lower-level toons like common IOs under lvl 25 or so. If the 45-50 level guys want to have massive bidding wars on purple recipes and whole sets of 45-50 recipes let them...none of it will reflect on the rest of the playerbase at all.

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Common IOs are already price controlled since you can buy the recipes at a set price. Common salvage price is determined by the drop rate, and cornering the market just doesn't happen for more than a few hours at a time. As someone's sig says, "If you didn't leave the bid up for a day, you didn't actually try to buy something." It's already been stated multiple times in this thread that purple recipe prices are going up and everything else is pretty much the same as it's been.

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As I see it the easiest way to reduce the amount of Inf in the system is simply to lower the amount that the uber-rich can earn.

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There is a limit to the amount the uber-rich can earn. It's 2bil per character. Are you suggesting lowering that limit? What does that have to do with the rest of your post?

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Nah there are other SP3's. There don't seem to be many, but I know I'm not the only one, and not the first. Just the one that coined the term

Also, why the panic about upcoming Dom changes? Castle has made it clear many a time that permadom is not changing. Permdom existed prior to IO's...you just needed hasten about 4 kin corrs to SB you......the Devs have known about Permdom since Dominators came around, it is not going anywhere.

And yes, SP3 aint cheap. But as a SP3 mind/energy.....well....lets just say that things become almost....too easy. If you are looking for a budget, then go for permdom/permhasten, set dom to autofire and know that when dom goes off you need to check hasten and have it ready.

My Fire-psi is an Ascended Permdom and should I rack up the funds then he too will evolve to SP3, but it's not a priority.

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I was under the impression that they were taking damage out of Domination, which was the main reason to permadom. Without that need, permadom is less of a "must have" and more of a "cool bonus". I admit I'm not well-read on the subject so please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Also (slight hijack here...), you're one of the only people I've read on these boards who touts /energy. I was thinking of making a /energy since that power boost skill sounds like a great buff. I figure it's just begging for a primary with sweet secondary effects to feed off it. I was thinking of going grav since propel is pure win. Gimpy? Doable but not worth the investment? Best idea ever? What's a good primary to go with energy if I simply must use it?

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You would need Purple sets, some non Purple Sets and some LOTG. My SP3 is missing 2 LOTG which would top her off at about 145% recharge. However they aren't needed as she is past the milestone for SP3 already so I'm not rushing for them. Also it was built before the addition of the new PVP sets but from what I see on the market those are not cheap and I bet they don't drop very often.

As to the final price tag, it depends on your power sets and pool powers and just how far you want to go. At the very least I'd go for permdom+permhasten.

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Well I know myself. I don't want to be watching both buttons to press immediately, and since you can only have one auto-fire, I'd sooner have SP3 and not worry about it. Of course, that's ridonkulously expensive so perhaps it's best to just go for semi-permadom...enough hasten/recharge to let me chain dom for 10 or 15m before I lose it...something like that. Then again, with the upcoming changes, perhaps I should just forget about perma-.

Still, the exercise of creating a perma-build from scratch in theory (using mids and excel) sounds like a lot of fun to me...and after creating it, I might as well just build it and play it.

Are you the only "SP3" around, Nericus?