Steampunkette

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To everyone else. I honestly cannot see a way for a Zombie Mastermind to be a true hero and hailed as such by the community (Level 50: Hero of the City)


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I'll give you a few, including the repeat of one above:

- Person volunteers. People give their bodies to science, after all. Why not voluntarily sign something before death saying they're up for reanimation by a hero to be used as such?

- Illusion. Kind of a cop out, perhaps. But similar to the Batman-esque "What would cause fear in those I face" - someone who's big on zombie movies growing up may project "zombies" for the psychological effect.

- Robotics/animatics. For the same reason as above. They're not "really" Zombies, but are shaped that way for effect.

Just off the top of my head. The first is closer to the "strictest" definition, perhaps, but all would explain a hero "summoning zombies."

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And all of those are perfectly logical examples of something that -could- be accepted by the community.

Though you're right. I should've put the first one as an addendum. People would likely be -somewhat- less upset if people were giving their consent before death.

Of course, then you get into the same arguments of Stem Cells from the umbilical cord being decried as evil. And i do seem to recall there was a huge scare over organ donations from people who -didn't- sign up for it... Still. It'd be far more socially acceptable than raising a random corpse from a graveyard without permission.

-Rachel-

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Nethergoat... Did you even notice that you're standing on top of a soapbox pointing fingers at everyone else for being on soapboxes? Wagging your finger at people wagging their fingers?

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I don't care how anyone plays the game (not even you) which leaves me without an audience to lecture and scold.

I'm just mixing with the crowd, heckling the stuffed shirt on the platform trying to impose their definition of 'fun' on the whole world.

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I take this to mean "I make fun of others positions and opinions to make myself feel better, rather than adding to the conversation in question"

Am I close? You're not adding to the conversation. Voice your opinion and be done with it, Nethergoat. Pointing out flaws in others is a waste of typing. And look what you made me do? Several sentences of keystrokes -wasted- to explain that to you.

Disagreeing with me is -fine-. I don't mind if you disagree. Noone should, really. But when you deride others for having an opinion you frustrate and upset people. And that's just not cool.

-Rachel-

Bookeeper Jay and Perfect Pain.

Get out of the thread. If this is a discussion about how people handle the RP aspects of a character and you don't RP, don't care to RP, and hold people who do RP in contempt or disdain (LoLRP) then you've nothing to add to the discussion.

To everyone else. I honestly cannot see a way for a Zombie Mastermind to be a true hero and hailed as such by the community (Level 50: Hero of the City)

Yes. Anti-Heroes. Vigilantes. Etc. True hero beloved by the community raising the dead as puppets: No.

If you RP your Zombie mastermind as having zombies that still have the spirits they had in life, being redeemed in death: That's not a true Zombie. YOu're skirting the borders on undead, which can be accepted by a community.

But meat puppets made from the flesh of loved ones is no different than Vahzilok's toys.

Mind + Soul = Undead with redemption

Mindless + Soulless = Meat Puppet.

-Rachel-

Nethergoat... Did you even notice that you're standing on top of a soapbox pointing fingers at everyone else for being on soapboxes? Wagging your finger at people wagging their fingers?

Just checking.

-Rachel-

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[Z]ombies would likely do most of our menial labor. From digging ditches to fetching water and building materials.

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Since you and I have already found we share a taste in music, how about movies? Given the subject, I recommend Fido.

(Also, trailer for Fido)

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... I have -got- to see this movie. O.O

-Rachel-

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Plenty of heroes get their powers from 'evil' sources. Don't Spawn and Ghost Rider have demons or something like that to thank for their powers?

The Punisher and Jack Bauer do many questionable things for the sake of good. To them the ends justify the means.

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Both Spawn and Ghost Rider received their powers from Evil Sources. However the power they wield isn't inherently evil.

A Guy buys a gun from a drug dealer and uses it to make a citizens arrest on a drug dealer. The weapon is neutral, even if the source is evil or wrong.

A Guy buys a gun that fires puppies at 300 feet per second and fires on criminals. The gun in this example is evil, even if the guy he's shooting is evil, too.

-Rachel-

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I don't understand why some people claim that certain things can't ever be seen as good. A common complaint I see is the concept of a Necromancer mastermind doing good deeds but who is to say that all necromancers are evil or cannot be redeemed? What if the person is a scientist who has managed to learn the secret of bringing the dead back to life? This same scientist has decided to dedicate his research to reviving the dead in order to combat crime.

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Typically the -act- of raising the dead is considered evil. And if he's bringing people back to life: Why is he forcing them to help him, rather than letting them return to their grieving families? If he's -NOT- bringing them back to life and is in fact using zombies: He shows no respect for the dead, or their families. Again, generally considered an evil or at least extremely RUDE Act.

Like reaching into Grandma's casket at a funerl, stuffing your hand in a hole you cut into her back, and using her as a ventriloquist's puppet.

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Showing a lack of respect for the dead isn't inherently evil. It's perhaps a violation of some of our social mores, but dead people are just sacks of decaying meat. Someone with a certain moral flexibility might well see them as a resource that can be used for a greater good.

While his radical ethical ideas might well make him an outcast, there is no reason such a person could not be an anti-hero, and it's the anti-hero that Going Rogue seems perfect for capturing the spirit of.

My own necro/storm isn't a bad guy. He's actually very much a gentleman and quite charming. He's even compassionate and cares deeply about the plight of the ordinary people with more than a little sense of Noblesse Oblige. He is, however, largely amoral (which is not the same as immoral, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorality) and therefore does not feel constrained by normative ethics.

When Going Rogue comes out, he may well be a candidate for changing sides (quite possibly more than once).

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That's all fine and dandy, well and good. But in this alternate version of reality social mores are what shapes acceptable behavior.

If the public doesn't like Zombies (And I think it's clear they're not a HUGE fan of mindless undead running around) then having mindless undead puppets puts you in the same boat as Vahzilok and other villains in the minds and hearts of the people.

You can throw a thousand and one examples of 'it could be considered good if' and it would still have to be almost universally -accepted- as good before it would make sense from an in-character standpoint.

A Vocal Minority is enough to take a television show off the air, or force an officer to turn his badge in. Since all heroes are licensed by the City Government they're under similar limitations.

Do enough Evil Acts and you're not allowed in Paragon anymore (You become a villain under the new system) If you agree that the act of raising and using corpses is an evil act then you agree that to do so repeatedly will eventually earn you the enmity of Paragon City, and a boot to the Rogue Isles (As per the alignment system set up)

-Rachel-

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Even if the zombie gave consent?

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A Zombie cannot give consent if it's a zombie based on the game's definition thereof. Since it's a mindless puppet being used by the Mastermind.

If the Zombie -were- to give consent it would be solely due to the Necromancer -forcing- it to say so.

-Rachel-

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If the zombies are mindless he can be using raising the dead as a necessary evil in order to fight crime and corruption. While it's true that he could be using a loved father's corpse to fight this crime and while that could stress out/upset certain people it could also save people's lives. This, to me, sounds like the concept of the expansion. The line isn't as clear as it used to be, another dimension is trying to conquer our own, and should we deny the help of someone who's willing to risk his own life to protect our world just because he uses a morally questionable practice?

Remember, in our own reality there's people who don't believe that animals have souls, that they don't have true emotions, and roll their eyes at those who go out of their way to protect them but at the same time will help their fellow man. A necromancer can view the same towards a corpse. That it's an empty shell, that it can be used for justice, and that it's illogical for people to persecute him for simply using his own talents to save the lives of others.

Again, you have to look at the individual. While many people may not be able to accept his practice, if he uses corpses to fight evil and take some of the most dangerous people off the streets their will be those who will overlook his talents. Or maybe the person doesn't require any fame at all? Maybe he doesn't mind that others refuse to see what he's doing as good but does it anyway because he feels he's doing the right thing? You may be unable to accept it but it doesn't change the side he's fighting for.

Of course.. such a man can end up viewing everyone as shells, becoming arrogant and seeing himself as a god, etc. Corruption which would lead him back to being a villain.

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Well how does the general populace view his act, is the question. Does the general public of Paragon consider zombies to be evil (Vahzilok, Banished Pantheon, Halloween Zombies) or do they view them as tools to be used?

If it's the former, then a Hero Zombie Mastermind would likely have his license suspended or revoked based on public outcry. If he continues heroing he could be arrested.

If the latter is true, however, then zombies would likely do most of our menial labor. From digging ditches to fetching water and building materials.

-Rachel-

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Typically the -act- of raising the dead is considered evil.

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What if it's not forced? What if the Necromancer asks the nice spirit if he wants to come help? Sort of like a voodoo witch: "Hear me, oh spirits of darkness! ... That's the guy. *point*"

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Generally acceptable, I think? Pointing spirits of vengeance towards a criminal, that they might handle it. Yes. That could be considered a good act.

But using Zombies as they are typically understood to exist in this game (the dead given some semblance of life for the sole purpose of serving their master) is evil. Using a Corpse-puppet is at the very -least- extremely disrespectful to a family.

-Rachel-

That's actually something that's -always- upset me. Take a look at these powers...

Howling Twilight

Activating this power channels the power of the Netherworld to weaken your foes, in an attempt to revive all nearby fallen allies. You must stand near your defeated allies to revive them, then select a foe. The selected foe and all nearby foes will be Slowed, Disoriented, and drained of some life. Revived allies will have full Hit Points and Endurance and will suffer no ill effects and are left protected from XP Debt for 20 seconds

Twilight Grasp

You channel Negative Energy from the Netherworld through yourself to a targeted foe. Twilight Grasp drains the power from that target and slowly transfers it to you and all nearby allies. The targeted foe's chance to hit and damage are reduced, while you and your nearby allies are healed.

Despite the description, the healing is instantaneous, not gradual. Furthermore, the description doesn't mention that this power also debuffs its target's health Regeneration rate.

The Mastermind version of Twilight Grasp has half the healing radius of the others.

Siphon Life

You tap the power of the Netherworld and create a life transferring conduit between a foe and yourself. This will transfer Hit Points from your enemy to yourself. Foes siphoned in this manner have their chance to hit reduced.

Dark Regeneration

You can tap the dark essence of the Netherworld to drain a small amount of life from all enemies nearby, thus healing yourself. The more foes affected, the more you will be healed.


None of them say ANYTHING about sucking soul... Untill you get to these three.

Soul Transfer

Should you fall in battle, you can perform a Soul Transfer, sucking the life force of all foes around you to bring yourself back from the brink of death. The more foes nearby, the more life is restored to you. Drained foes are left Disoriented. The dark effects of this Soul Transfer will actually leave you invulnerable for a brief time, and protected from XP Debt for 20 seconds. There must be at least one foe nearby to fuel the transfer and revive yourself.

Soul Drain

Using this power, you can drain the essence of all nearby foes' souls, thus increasing your own strength. Each affected foe will lose some Hit Points and add to your Damage and chance to hit.

Dark Consumption

The dark power of the Netherworld allows you to tap the essence of your foe's soul and transfer it to yourself. This will drain the Hit Points of your enemy and add to your Endurance.

And those right there are the reasons I can't bring myself to take a Dark/Dark scrapper hero -seriously-.

Killing is a horrible and deplorable act for a hero to commit. You're ending someone's life. It creates pain in the form of remorse (Typically) for the hero, pain for the victim's family, and a total lack of feeling in the Victim.

But tampering with and damaging someone's eternal aspect is a -far- more heinous act. As it damages them eternally.

-Rachel-

4 Crab Spiders, 2 Bane Spiders, 2 Fortunata. ITF. Pwnt.

Wonder how we'll handle the STF after Going Rogue...? =-3

-Rachel-

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I don't understand why some people claim that certain things can't ever be seen as good. A common complaint I see is the concept of a Necromancer mastermind doing good deeds but who is to say that all necromancers are evil or cannot be redeemed? What if the person is a scientist who has managed to learn the secret of bringing the dead back to life? This same scientist has decided to dedicate his research to reviving the dead in order to combat crime.

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Typically the -act- of raising the dead is considered evil. And if he's bringing people back to life: Why is he forcing them to help him, rather than letting them return to their grieving families? If he's -NOT- bringing them back to life and is in fact using zombies: He shows no respect for the dead, or their families. Again, generally considered an evil or at least extremely RUDE Act.

Like reaching into Grandma's casket at a funerl, stuffing your hand in a hole you cut into her back, and using her as a ventriloquist's puppet.

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His view of the death is that the person who used to inhabit the body are long gone and now the corpse can be used in order to protect those who are still living. Changing the story around, you can even use the same concept with a magical character. In reality it's the same concept as a demon summoner forcing demons to fight against their own kind.

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The difference is the Demons don't have loved ones still mourning the loss of Grandma.

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At the same time I hear a lot about how Kheldians would never do evil but this simply isn't true either. A Warshade can feel the allure of his past crimes calling back to him and slowly end up reverting back to his Nictus ways. Afterall, he was once a nictus before so becoming one again isn't an impossibility. At the same time, in the story, they mention that there's over zealous peace bringers that REFUSE to accept the Warshades. The only reason they do so is because their leader manages to keep them under control. Because he has faith in their cause but what's to say a Peacebringer doesn't rebel? That he can't see it not being a ploy and that Warshades are one of the greatest threats?

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110% agreed. Nictus are evil Kheldians who've modified their essence. Nothing wrong with an Evil Nictus. As for Kheldians: If a human can be evil, why not a squid?

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What if his prejudice pushes him into feeling betrayed, that everyone is being used, and seeing the Paragon heroes that trust the Warshades as the ones who are wrong? A peacebringer who has become much like the witch hunters of old and even going as far as to side with the Rogue Island Villains in order to fight against the Nictus threat. Believing that what it's doing is best for humanity as a whole?

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All perfectly logical and acceptable reasons.


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No matter what any of the ATS can be used for good or evil. So many of you are thinking in terms of black and white. These aren't the only possible scenarios but are simply examples. As for the Kheldian bit (because I see this one the most), remember that Nictus were once Peacebringers. Peacebringers can go corrupt and aren't infallible beings.

Thugs mastermind? Remember, with the right amount of cash and maybe some manipulation you can pay most people to do anything.

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Agreed. But a Zombie Mastermind is still dragging people out of their graves to fight for him. An evil act, even if his -intent- is good. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. And each evil act is another step towards damnation.

So while I agree with all of your other points (Money for Thugs? Why can't they just be a gang of hero-wannabes fighting crime with the help of a low-grade hero as their leader?) I have to, respectfully, disagree with the Zombie Mastermind being accepted as a good person. Demons are pure evil, generally speaking, so manipulation into redeeming acts could be perceived as good. Making Grandma do 'The Robot', however, cannot be viewed as a 'good' thing, in many people's opinions.

-Rachel-

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Numina's a toughy...

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Mad World, by Gary Jules. At least, I think it fits for a living ghost.

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You mean the Gary Jules cover of Mad World by Tears for Fears... >.> Right? =-3

-Rachel-

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Yes. That. Sorry. (I actually LIKE Tears for Fears, too! They're no Duran Duran or Rush, though.)
Gary's version still fits better for Nummie. Slower and sadder.

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Totally Agree! =-3

-Rachel-

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Numina's a toughy...

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Mad World, by Gary Jules. At least, I think it fits for a living ghost.

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You mean the Gary Jules cover of Mad World by Tears for Fears... >.> Right? =-3

-Rachel-

Why does everyone feel the need to focus on Back Alley Brawler being black, rather than what he accomplished?

Seriously. Come on! He was a big street hero who busted drug cartels as the head of the Regulators. He was a super-heroic Narc.

Everyone seems to be focused on Street/Black/Hip Hop/Rap. Give me a good rap song which contains lyrics about busting drug dealers and we'll talk. :P

-Rachel-

*Edit* On that note 'Momma said knock you out' is probably the best of those suggested, IMO >.>

Honestly. I don't know. But after flipping through a few videos on Youtube looking for a good Daft Punk instrumental I ran across this little gem.

We need that tiny robot as an evil mastermind villain in the game. It should be named Internet (to fit with Radio and TV) and command forces of brainwashed fodder into battle.

The soul of the internet downloaded into a creepy robot! FTW!

-Rachel-

Daft Punk? Heck Yeah! Though... Harder Better Faster Stronger is a little overdone... How about something else from the same band? I like

Aerodynamic for Citadel because it's got calm portions and more action oriented sequences as well. Which lends itself to the video having different feals. Where Harder Better Faster Stronger is just the same phrases repeated ad nausem at different pitches and tempos, sometimes faded out.

.... I think my problem is that I'm just a fan of Instrumental theme music, rather than songs filled with words that get in the way of the character, or have to be interpreted.

>.>
Sorry. I'll stop! >_<

-Rachel-

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=...mp;view=videos

Really good channels for some contemporary instrumentals. =-3

-Rachel-

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You -do- realize that 'Street' in the 80s meant something FAR different than 'Street' today, right?

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As a matter of fact, I do.

But we're talking about a 2009 audience

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And a 2009 audience shouldn't be given music that doesn't fit the character. The lyrics of Flo-Rida's modified refrain aren't even -veiled- sexual innuendo. Brawler's a married man who is also a retired (More or Less) hero. Having him run around talking about oral sex doesn't fit very well.

-Rachel-

No. Like These:

Poor Impulse Control Interact with 10 mission objectives during architect missions.
Button Masher Interact with 25 mission objectives during architect missions.
Impulsive Interact with 50 mission objectives during architect missions.
Unpredictable Interact with 100 mission objectives during architect missions.
Pressed the Red Button Interact with 250 mission objectives during architect missions.
Workaholic Complete 5 non-required objectives during architect missions.
Show Off Complete 10 non-required objectives during architect missions.
Hotshot Complete 25 non-required objectives during architect missions.
Went the Extra Mile Complete 50 non-required objectives during architect missions.
Overachiever Complete 100 non-required objectives during architect missions.
Extractor Rescue or kidnap 1 hostage during architect missions.
Do Gooder Rescue or kidnap 5 hostages during architect missions.
Safekeeper Rescue or kidnap 10 hostages during architect missions.
Savior Rescue or kidnap 25 hostages during architect missions.
To the Rescue Rescue or kidnap 50 hostages during architect missions.
Destructive Destroy 1 object during architect missions.
Decimator Destroy 5 objects during architect missions.
Obliterator Destroy 10 objects during architect missions.
Marauder Destroy 25 objects during architect missions.
Cataclysmic Destroy 50 objects during architect missions.
Ticket Taker Defeat enemies and complete missions to earn 100 tickets total.
Ticket Hound Defeat enemies and complete missions to earn 500 tickets total.
Ticket Fiend Defeat enemies and complete missions to earn 1,000 tickets total.
Ticket Master Defeat enemies and complete missions to earn 5,000 tickets total. (required for Mission Engineer Badge)
Golden Ticket Defeat enemies and complete missions to earn 25,000 tickets total.
Activated Earn 10 inspirations while playing a published arc
Encouraged Earn 50 inspirations while playing a published arc
Motivated Earn 100 inspirations while playing a published arc
Energized Earn 500 inspirations while playing a published arc
Galvanized Earn 1,000 inspirations while playing a published arc
Architect X Earn 10 Architect Entertainment Badges
Architect XXV Earn 25 Architect Entertainment Badges
Architect L Earn 50 Architect Entertainment Badges
Architect LXXV Earn 75 Architect Entertainment Badges
Architect C Earn 100 Architect Entertainment Badges
Eliminator Defeat 50 Custom Critters on published arcs.
Liquidator Defeat 100 Custom Critters on published arcs.
Executioner Defeat 500 Custom Critters on published arcs.
Assassin Defeat 1,000 Custom Critters on published arcs.
Terminator Defeat 5,000 Custom Critters on published arcs.


I feel all of these badges should be per character. Meanwhile all Test mode and publication badges should be account-wide.

-Rachel-

You -do- realize that 'Street' in the 80s meant something FAR different than 'Street' today, right?

Need I remind you all of the horrors of missing your bus?

-Rachel-

*Edit* It's also worth mentioning that he was around 20 in the 80s. How many Forty+ year old guys do you know who like modern hip hop covers of songs they didn't like when they were twenty? :P

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THIS THREAD IS EXCITING! I'M EXCITED!

*runs around like Ruprecht*

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Is it as exciting as fire? Because fire is -very- exciting!

-Rachel-

Almost all the MA Badges should be global, since the system is global.

If I can log on three different characters, three different times, to make modifications to the same mission they should all get the badges from the architect.

The only caveat I would have would be play through badges. Like the destroyer badges and rescuer. Things of that nature.

-Rachel-

Do they -have- to have lyrics?

If not... Positron

*Edit* Could start out the video (in the slow section of the music) with him -before- the lab accident which gave him his powers. Then, as it picks up, the accident. Then the aftermath. And finally: Positron kicking all kinds of behind all over the place. Trapped in his tin-can.

-Rachel-