Starsman

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Long long ago, in a post far away, one of the devs mentioned the way -Resistance worked. Now, What I've heard that post mentioned was that -Res wasnt actual -Res but a damage multiplier. Is this correct, or is this one of the fallacies just randomly flying around?

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Resist Debuffs are resisted by Damage Resistance.

If your 100 damage attack hits someone with no resists, it does 100 damage.
If that person had a 25% Resist Debuff, damage taken would be 125.

A 100 damage attack vs someone with 50% resists would take 50 damage.
If that person had a 25% Resist Debuff on them, damage taken would be 62.5.

EDIT: The above assumes the Resist Debuff is resistable. Defenders debuffs are not resistable in PvP.

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I hear the same goes for Damage Debuffs, if i can hit for 100 points with some punch and have 50% smash resist, and get a 50% damage output debuf, i would also be hitting for 62.5 instead of 50. Is this true? And if true, is it intended?

Thanks, was bored yesternight due to bad internet connection that prevented me from playing

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A defender has low health, low defences and low damage output. What they do have are the capacity to buff and heal others. To me this says they are made more for teaming. Knowing this, going solo into a PvP zone as a defender will leave you at a disadvantage reguardless of build or tactics.

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Are you serious the only one that applies to is empathy that's it. Rad, storm, dark, kin have damage that rival that of blasters thanks to their debuffing/buffing abilities they are not at a disvantage. The only people that are at a disadvantage is any poor sap that aims for them thinking they are easy prey. There is no way for my brute to take down dark, rad or storm, kin can be a mix bag. The only way to win is if I sneak on them that's right a brute sneaking on people. Your entire analysis is based on false propaganda I have played enough defenders to know this is very very false.

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I think his point is simply that squishies WHERE designed to be extrmely vulnerable, not that they are entirely helpless, but that if as a defender some one gets the upper hand, it may be over before you get any chance to fight back. If i get with my SS tank close enough to AS and hit, i found they wont be flying away from me no more and i'll be able to stay close enough to kill them with extreme ease, but as you noted, i must get up close first and that may be tricky. Stalkers will almost always be able to sneak up on a defender (or blaster or controller) and that is what i think the poster meant.

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Did you miss this sentence in my post? I doubt it.

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Let me rephrace (and i tought i did that before posting it):

Or simply accept that you cant posibly survive against every single AT.


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I think things like "info" that allow a Stalker to size you up in detail before striking should be disabled in PVP zones.

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Sort of agree. Sort off because I think the only thing you need to disable is the power information tab, bio, badges and pvp ratings should still be visible to anyone.

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But the pretention that one should have to buy a specific power to counter each AT strikes me as odd. That means 9 powers we'd have to buy to have a counter to each AT.

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Or simply accept that you cant posibly win against every single AT.

As for other ways to prevent being killed by a stalker, +Def WILL help you against stalkers (AS is not auto hit)

Sure, its usualy coupled with a lot of acc buffs, but still it is posible to miss.

The only thing i would say does need some change, and this is not only for stalkers, is supression. The 4 seconds that are there currently are too short. After attacking players there should be a 15 to 20 seconds of supression of travel powers (teleport included), phase shifts, and stealth powers. This would actually make the desition to attack a real risk one.

Right now being able to jump in, kill, and run away is a bit unrisky. 4 seconds can be too little for a human to get to target you, specialy on a crouded space where tab will just jump arround everyone and targetting with mouse can get tricky.

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A build that performs well in PVE ought to be able to perform decently in PVP. That's why these answers of "get tactics" are a bit funky. You shouldn't have to get a specific power or to be decent in PVP.

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No, a performs well in PvE does not has to be decent in PvP, it simply should not be entirely useless in other words, it should function in some situations. The topic at hand is oneshot, not every enemy can oneshoot, and stalkers are just one of 5 posible enemy ATs you can find if you play a hero on PvP. The fact that if you dont build for it you are vulnerabel to 20% of the ATs does not make you by any chance useless, not even close to just decent.

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There was a similar issue with Status protections . People used to say "get acrobatics", but you shouldn't have to get a specific power or pool to be decent at PVP. And, lo and behold, status protections are now sprinkled throughout the shared pools.

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Status protection is the realm of melee, and few powers actually provide any status protection.


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I'd suggest they do the same thing with +perception, but +perception stacks much better than status defense do.

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Add too many options and suddenly everyone will auto negate Hide and stealth without even trying, that is definitively overpowered.

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Oh? You mean there is a definite, absolute history of the etmology of the phrase "PvP not influencing PvE" for these boards? If there is, would you please do me the courtesy of citing it? And if not, could you please do us all the courtesy of not asserting your own ideal as the greater, better, truer meaning?

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Yes, Statesman and company have stated many times that what they mean with their offten missquoted line is mainly they will not take desicions that affect PvE due to PvP. Mainly it really means: no nerfs will come to PvE due to PvP.

As for finding you a quote, i'll do a search but these forums get inactive threads deleted every week so i may not find any currently. You can always PM states himself if that is what he means, he takes his time, but often if the PMs are serious he may reply.

Now, PvP is an entire diferent playstyle, and as such, if you want to be optimal you do need to build for it instead of PvE. Heck, there are builds that are done specificaly to deal with one type of enemy and farm them to death even if they fail against other types of enemies, it is imposible to expect there to be a build that can work optimaly on every single situation.

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Aside: Yes someone could use Tactics etc, but as has been stated many times, PvP should not infulence PvE. It should not be necessary for any player to take a power or powerest in order to participate in PvP. If Tactics become essential, this is not the case.

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PvP not influencing PvE means that the devs will attempt all they can so that any change to the game because of PvP does not affect PvE.

It does not means that you should be able to taunt and herd and burn players as you would in PvE or so on. If you wish to take active part of PvP you SHOULD be influenced drasticaly by this on your desitions. If you, however, decide to ignore PvP, you should never be forced to do something that is PvP oriented. That is all that ideal stands for, dont go around twisting it.

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Very true, stalkers should be able to one shot some mobs, but you also have to remember that you're dealing with heroes with super powers.

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And can you tell me where it says that being able to heal other people would make YOU inmune to a bullet trough your eyes?

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I can't say I read a lot of comics but would you ever expect wolverine to be taken out of comission in two hits?

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If he gets jumped by two equaly strong enemies that can strike from the shadows, sure i can.

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or Storm or Jean Grey in one?

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Cant count the many times i seen these get KOD in one shot. Heck, i seen Spiderman be KOD in one shot. Few are the heroes that can actually stand more than one well delivered punch.

Well, i think they do, but then again, he never told he played a tanker.

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There's a problem of course. If they go in as devs (i.e. known) they will not be able to get "normal" play out of the players for obvious reasons. If they go in "incognito" they will get normal play, but, there are ethical concerns (i.e., they could be accused of "spying" on the player base). So even that is not as simple as it sounds.

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They already play incognito with the playerbase, mostly on pickups. This was noted by States himself on the "Ask Statesman"

This is something that may help alviate a lot of pvp issues:

If you attack a player, travel power does not gets supressed for 4 seconds, but for 15, also, teleport is disabled too, same for temporary phaseshift powers (not the ones you get from poolpowers).

This would help not only with stalkers, but anyone that attempts any alpha stryke. The issue i do find sort of wrong is, I can try to assassin some one, and if i miss, i simply have to dodge for 4 very short seconds and then travel off before almost anything can be done against me. This applies to all characters, people dont really take the risk of attacking since they still joust out. Again, this is only if used on a player target, not touching pve at all. Wont stop oneshoots, or alphas, or blabla, but do will force people to take consequences for their actions.

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Stalkers teaming up to do an alpha-strike is no worse than any other team combination alpha. The solution to being attacked by a team is to be in a team yourself. The problem is that Stalkers can attack players in a team, 1-shot, and get away without significant consequence or risk.

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Once the stalker assassins, his travel powers and stealth suppress. A fast reacting team will be able to take him out before he can get away (maybe unless the guy is a teleporter)

While playing a stalker myself, i'd only assassinate some one that is on a team if
1) he is a squishi
2) his team made sure to let him "safely" away from the heat (ie, vulnerable to me)

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Individual players having to build for PvP so that they can avoid being ganked will lead to a small PvP population. Most people aren't going to respec just to avoid being killed by a Stalker in PvP.

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Stalkers are not the only ones that can stealth. You know how deadly /traps corruptors or masterminds can be with stealth? Do you know ninja masterminds can hide their pets, and these will also crtical from hiden? And you surely dont want a dominator that is ready to dominate to sneak on you, specialy if you are a melee. So, going for something like tactics does not means that you are just specing only to prevent assassins. Also, I dont mean to make a build that is purely PvP, i mean to make a build that is created with PvP in mind. There are loads of powers people never bother with, because due to AI are entirely useless in PvE, but these are amazing for PvP. Asking that your purely PvE optimized build to do well in PvP is really not close to fair.

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Well, when they faced a similar problem with controllers, they converted the PREVENT inspiration to a RESPOND inspiration.

You can do the math from there.

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Nothing similar there. The problem with breakfrees were many before, between them, if hold, you may easily go afk for half an hour to come back and find you still slowly dying.

AS, by nature, is something you should prevent, not counter. And even if they add any rule they add, you may start seeing stalkers teaming up to do 2 chain assassinations. No mater what, you cant prevent oneshoot kills.

How about a full group of stealted scrappers suddenly using all at the same time their heaviest attack on you? That would oneshoot you still, if they stop AS and traps, they should also prevent this. Why dont we, while at it, prevent it that you can be hit twice in a period fo 2 seconds, to avoid that bad bad feeling of beig ganked?

Yes, there are issues in pvp, but oneshoot kills, are not really between them. You also may find that teaming up will change how it all goes, and almost nullify AS.

Some also may want to review their build for PvP, including things like the leadership pool. 2 or 3 members with tanctics should make those stalkers and stealters visible.

PvP is open war. No soldier lives long in open war solo. Yes, right now stalkers are doing just that, but because they pick the other solo soldiers out there.

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In CoH Beta, players were able to push NPCs rather than the other way around. Quite reliably, players would then herd the NPCs all into a small area, causing AI issues and horrible server lag.

I hate being pushed around, too, but I don't believe it will change any time soon. (NOTE: I could be wrong!)

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What about removing colission detection from decorative NPCs inside of door missions?

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I understand the sentiment, but I forsee a likely outcome I am strongly opposed to: that having a healer/buffer requires a counter aggro magnet for that character to survive.

I see nothing about current conditions that warrant even risking that outcome.

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I don't see why it'd be a problem, actually. I meanif tankers are going to need defenders to survive the aggro they draw, why shouldn't defenders need tankers to hold the aggro. If anything, it'll give tankers more reason to hold that aggro.

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Not to mention the controller would still do just as good of a job to keep you out of that agro. And that you can tone down your healing and buffing mid battle. Yea, right now an empath can easily set healing aura on auto and face no consequence, healing people even if they dont need it. If agro was drawn for every ally healed, they may think twice of going arround spamming heals like that, and they may even find their single target buffs/heals more useful while at it!

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lets see if we flip the coin to be slated to compare to a scrapper a tank has .75 or had that much a scrapers dmg prior to the last dmg buff they got. Now we have somewhere around .68-62 of scrapper dmg. Ok as far as resists/def if you say scrappers have 1 we have 1.33 times more def/resists. Why does this variation in comparision styles matter? because when a defender adds +50% def via a power or 30% resists it sits on that final diff in scale. '

Ergo: invuln:TI 22.5 s/l scrapper 30% s/l tanks both * 1.57
=35% and 48%
ok now add for example a 30% resist bonus due to sonic buff
that is by scale a 30/35% = 85% resist buff, for the tanks its 30/48=62.5 resist buff. But in the end the diff between them is 65% and 78%. 78/65=120% which makes the tanker 1.2 times better then the scrapper or the scrapper is 83% effect of the tank.

Now lets look at tanker dmg vs scrapper and dmg buffs
tanker is .75 of old scrapper dmg and a scrappers current is 112% which is 67% . k so now on to the dmg
a 6bi attack such as shadow maul, vs tanks version = 6*.67=4.02
ok now we slot w/ 3 so's and buildup
that is 6*2+.8=16.8
tanks version 4*2+.8=11.2
Note this is before any buffage! ratio diff is 11.2/16.8. Now we add in some kin buff of 200%
6*4.8=28.8
4*4.8=19.2
ratio is still .67 or so. or flipped is 28.8/19.2=1.5!

The defenders buff in effect didnt have a mutliplier change it merely added right to the def/resists. Where as buffing a tanks dmg always puts them at a disadvange.

NOTE this is ingoring the fact that scrappers get criticals as well!!

SO in conclusion tanks are .67 dmg of scrappers OR scrappers are 1.5 of tanks when fully buffed

and tanks are 1.33 def/resists base which gets skewed to 1.2 with buffs or scrappers are .75 which gets skewed to 83% or higher depending on buff.

What this tranlates to is that tanks need some serious over-haul. New inherints, new systems of powers, something to make them worthwhile.

the 20% difference in effect between them for defenses doesnt need to be made larger, im not calling for scrapper nerfs, tanks need more dmg/inherint or just scrub the AT and let us re-roll as scrappers! Something ,anything is better then the current mish-mosh.

oh if someone sees any fault with my math let me know.

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/em Stands up and claps

YOU SIR, would get 5 stars if they were still arround. Heck, i would buy the game over to give you 5 more stars!

I personaly dont think we will ever see a big resistance boost, after all, truth is, even if we got it, we still would not be that useful to teams that dont need us that much anyways, and it may make us again unkillable in the eyes of the devs. I personaly would love to see some sort of increase of damage, but i dont want something like a plain base damage boost, something interesting, a true overhaul, must be there. A variation of fury or something like that, but something.

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His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?


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The goal of the game is to make sure there isn't an ideal team composition. So, yes, a Scrapper, with buffs, can tank, but not as well as a Tanker. Why? Because 1) a Tanker starts with higher resistances/defenses and 2) he has Punchvoke and thus can manage the aggro better.

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1) does not matter because a tanker will still need the defender or controller buff to do desent tanker, meaning the tanker does need the ideal team composition while everyone else doesn't.

2) only one at, but Brutes can keep agro almost as easily, with taunt on their auras, their AOEs, and 5 hit taunt, plus single target punchtaunt they can easily get to the same agro cap.

Oh dont forget keledians in dwarf form, those can also tank without buffs as long as good strategy eliminates/locksdown the quantums.

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3. If the Stalker has both hide and stealth you can stand right on the hero and he can not see you with goggles or tactics. If they have both goggles and tactics on they still can not see you if you have both hide and stealth on.

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Here is how i think it works: It does not makes much sence that the secondary effect of a pool power plus a temp power would be able to penetrate the primary effect of a secondary power plus primary effect of a pool power.

In other words:

(1 Secondary set power's primary effect + 1 Pool Power Primary Effect) > (1 pool power secondary effect + 1 temp power's primary effect)

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That means that if I have started a miss streak, using a power such as Aim or Build Up, or using an Accuracy inspiration will actually have no appreciable effect- (as they increase my current accuracy, but do nothing for the accuracy of previous attacks in my streak) Is that intended? Perhaps activating one of the above should force a streakbreaker to take effect. Err, in PVE only, I mean...
(yeah, that would make your next attack 'auto-hit', but heck, it's only 1 attack)

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"Hey I just missed once, that means I can now hide and autohit assassinate my next target!"

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Streak Breaker (I just talked to Poz about it
If you miss three times in a row, then your next attack will always hit.

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That would make the minimun posible to hit for heroes 25%... I am presuming this is only if your ACC is at or over 25%...

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Then this...

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...There is no "Accuracy Wrap Around" -- otherwise Blasters with Targetting Drone + Aim + Build Up would never, ever hit, which is not the case.

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And this...

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I'm well aware of how wrap-around works. There were several arcade games back in the '80s I had problems with this in as far as score went...

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Are contradictory statements.


Why would you state the first, if you are 'well aware' of the second?

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Because all those buffs, if warp arround, may take you to something like 5% IF there was warparround?

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However, I really think out of all the sets you mentioned that Dark Melee, and to be really specific Shadow Maul, needs to be looked at again.

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Shadow Maul (and other cone attacks) has been confirmed to be bugged, those powers DO are missing more than they should and they are working on it.

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You don't get them for buying the game, you get them for pre-ordering the game.

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Ok, let me rephrase:

Is there a way to get the four helmets without having to preorder the game four times on the four stores?

:P

As for complaining about free stuff, i just feel that

A) they are messing the stores up, as i would actually be encouraged to buy somewhere else than my favorite or cosest store

B) make some people upset of not being able to use the only one they can get from their only nearby retailer due to sex or just pure taste, while they may had been able/want to use another one they just cant get their hands on

C) Its like releasing those old Mega Special Edition Collector Comic Books with 10 diferent collectors covers. You bet the collector and completists will want them all.

I bet there are more reasons why this practice will upset many players.

Hmmm... is there any way we can get all the items other than buy the game four times? :P