Starsman

Liquid, I think Castle just means that Aid Self will buy a tanker more time than it will buy a blaster, if you manage to trigger it uninterrupted.

He already stated he wants to boost healing flames and i do bet we may see a 25% healing flame soon, altough that wont be enough to fix the extreme weakness of fire as a tanker.

I think I can see part of what Arcanaville means, even if I don’t agree 100% with his points.

How I see it: 50% resistance is weaker in a scrapper than in a tanker, but even so they decided to give scrappers 75% of that, so a 50% resistance becomes 37.5 resistance, coupled with high hp, this means a WAY greater gap than just the 25% many people think separate tankers from scrappers, with a 50% number, we end up having a gap of about 42.86%, and this gap becomes bigger with higher resistance (that’s part of the general tanker issue now, the numbers are so low in some sets the gap becomes less meaningful)

So, leaving it the same for both ATs, would mean the gap would be way lesser and then we do can say tankers overall don’t have enough of an advantage over scrappers in survival, we need both, the high HP AND the higher base number.

So on a similar fashion, you would think, that although a 25% heal is stronger on a tanker than on a scrapper, you would make a self heal equally more powerful on the tanker than you would on the scrapper, so not only should healing flames be stronger than it is, but it should be 25/.75 as strong (in other words 33.3%). Using the formulas I describe on the guide on my signature, though, JUST giving 33.3% base to healing flames would make fire tankers just as good as non-granite stone tankers unless you are facing fire damage. Not what I’d ever call overpowered.

[ QUOTE ]
10% is 10%, no matter the AT.

100 health vs 140 health is defintely not the same, especially considering in most cases that 140 health is being applied to someone with a good deal of damage resistance. It means that the tanker with the same scale of heal will almost certainly survive longer than a blaster with a 100 point heal.

Surely, you agree with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

You just confused me. Yes, a tanker with a 10% heal will last longer than a blaster with a 10% heal, and by longer I mean proportionly longer.

But if you give a naked tanker a 100 POINT heal (not %) it will stretch his life the same ammount of time it will for a blaster. Sure with Resistance factored in there is a diference, but i am confused since you noted first a 10% heal across ATs and then a 100 point heal comparation between blasters and tankers.

[ QUOTE ]
All we need to do now is combine Arcana's monster defense equation with your hp benefit equation and make some kind of overall survability factor equation, and I think we'd have the one equation to rule them all (tm)

[/ QUOTE ]


I just posted my updated guide, you may want to give it a look, check it out here and let me know what you think.

I dont use Arcana's formulas mainly because this guide is based on I7 changes and Def there will be overly simple as it wont be having any huge disparities based on your enemy, and as noted there, its about mitigation not full survival against X or Y enemy.

There are multiple layers that stand between you and death, many players just account for Def and Res, and give only Resist all credit and glory, but there are quiet a few other things that can be used to prevent kissing the ground.

This guide is meant to help you know how all these armors and enemy debuffs stack together.

Keep in mind that each type of protection is like a big wall between the enemy and you, something will not get to be affected by the third wall if it was stoped flat by the second one.

I want to take a moment to clarify this guide is meant to quantify mitigation. By mitigation i mean the reduction of the damage you would normally receive. If you fight a minion that always misses half the time, mitigation only takes those 50% of the hits as the only true damage to be reduced.

Lets go through them in the order they affect you, shall we?


Recharge

-Recharge slows down the recharge speed of enemies’ attacks effectively reducing the amount of hits you can suffer in any period of time. –Recharge suffers of three disadvantages:

<ul type="square">[*]The first wave of hits (the so famous Alpha Strike) is unaffected by it, as all attacks there are already charged up the moment you jump the enemy.[*]The effect is of lower impact against higher level enemies, since it is a debuff.[*]Although it increases the recharge time of an attack, it does not increase the activation time. Meaning that an attack that takes 2 seconds to hit, and 4 seconds to recharge will only have the 4 seconds increased, not the full 6 seconds, making the benefit a bit more random[/list]
The formula to calculate the mitigated damage by this is:
RechargeBenefit = 1-1/(1+(Debuff/100))


-Acc and Defense

Defense increases your chance to entirely deflect an attack.

-Accuracy lowers the chance of the enemy hitting you.

-Acc and Defense both act together but they dont stack. Against unbuffed enemies this does not trully makes a diference and its as if they did stack. Since I7 they will be affecting all enemies equally and basically 10 Defense really means 20%, since it will give the enemy 20% less chance to hit than normal, I wont get on the reason for this here, all you have to know is 1 = 2 once it comes to defense.

Defense is not really reliable, not because it does not work, because it does, but because you never know at what point your luck will run out. Its one of the few things in this game that is truthfully random. The main differences between –Acc debuffs and Defense are:

<ul type="square">[*]-Accuracy is a debuff, and therefore is less effective against higher level enemies[*]-Accuracy affects all of the affected enemies' attacks while Def usualy only help against specific types of damage or method of attack.
As noted on the introduction, this type of protection only works on the attacks that did go through the slow effects of –Recharge.[/list]
Formula to calculate the mitigated damage by this is:
DefenseBenefit = (AccDebuff + Def)/50 * 100 * (1- RechargeBenefit /100)


-Damage

Damage debuffs are rather simple: They reduce the damage an enemy can do by a percentage. If an enemy can do 100 and you debuffed his damage by 10% he will now hit for 90. Again, as all debuffs, this protection suffers a penalty the higher level the enemy is compared to you.
Formula to calculate the mitigated damage by this is:
DmgDebuffBenefit = DmgDebuff * (1- (DefenseBenefit +RechargeBenefit) /100)


Resistance

Very similar to –Damage, Resistance lowers the damage an enemy inflicts upon you. The difference is, it is lowering the already lower damage. So, using the above example, if the character has 10% resistance and is already doing 90 damage (since it went down on the example above,) he will now do 81 damage. As you can see, despite them doing the same thing, we cant just sum the two numbers. A disadvantage of Resistance is that it tends to only cover up certain damage types, while Dmg Debuff lowers all incoming attacks.
Formula to calculate the mitigated damage by this is:
ResistBenefit = Resist * (1- (DmgDebuffBenefit + DefenseBenefit +RechargeBenefit) /100)


HP and HP buffs

All damage that was going to be mitigated has been mitigated at this point. Now on you get the reminder of the damage. But there is another thing to keep into account and it’s your HP. You see, not all ATs have the same HP, and some power sets have means to boost their base hp. To understand the true benefit of HP you have to entirely forget about it as a fixed number and start to think about it in terms of percentages. All that truly matters is that the little progress bar that indicates health doesn’t go from 100% to 0%.

So, to truly measure the impact HP has on your damage mitigation you first need to know what is the HP of your AT relative to others. Here is a table that shows just that:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>AT RHP%
Tanker 175.0%
Brute 140.0%
Scrapper 125.0%
Blaster 112.5%
Kheldian 100.0%
Corruptor 100.0%
Controller 100.0%
Defender 95.0%
Stalker 95.0%
Dominator 95.0%
Mastermind 75.0%</pre><hr />

RHP stands for Relative HP. As you can see, Corruptors, Controllers and Kheldians are the baseline. Anything above that is considered to have a bonus, while anything below it is considered to have a penalty.

Lets say that an attack does 20% damage to a corruptor after all mitigations and you are a scrapper. You want to know how that 20% translates to you. But wait, before we do that, there is another issue. You may have an HP buff on similar to Dull Pain that may enhance your HP further off the base and it must also be accounted for.

The formula for this is:
HPBenefit = (1-1/(((RHP/100)*(1+(HPBuff/100))))) * 100 * (1- (DmgDebuffBenefit + DefenseBenefit +RechargeBenefit + ResistBenefit) /100)

Lets run a tanker example of this one here. (You can just jump to the bold number at the end if you are not interested in the math) In this example we will assume that HP is the only thing protecting you from death, in other words, zero in all the previous mitigations. We will use no dull pain either.

= (1-1/((175/100)*(1+(0/100)))) * 100 * (1- (0 + 0 + 0 + 0) /100)
= (1-1/(1.75*(1+0))) * 100 * (1- 0/100)
= (1-1/(1.75*(1+0))) * 100 * (1- 0)
= (1-1/(1.75*1)) * 100 * 1
= (1-1/1.75) * 100
= (1-0.5714) * 100
= 0.4285 * 100
= 42.85

So, we have that the naked tanker can theoretically resist the same damage as a Corruptor with 42.85% resistance to all damage types.

Running the same with Dull Pain will yield a 59.18%.

Now there is one tricky thing about HP buffs and High Base HP, as you have seen, the HPBuff yields a resist like benefit, however there is a gotcha: This resist like benefit also applies to all outside heals. Yes, this means that the same way this makes damage harm less of your overall HP, it also makes outside heals heal less of your overall HP. HB buffs are wore, as those make your own self heals be resisted. I'll cover the implications of this toughly on the next section.


Regeneration and Heals

This was the part I ran into issues last time, my biggest issue was I was not accounting for the time factor, if anyone sees any incongruence this time around please let me know.

Unlike all other protections this one actually becomes more useful the more mitigation you had on the other areas. Basically, for an enemy or group of enemies to kill you in a limited amount of time, he must do your entire HP worth of damage plus the entire HP that you can regenerate within the amount of time.

Example, if a hero has 100 points of hp, and he regenerates at the standard regeneration rate of 25% of his hp in a minute, and the enemy must be able to kill the hero in exactly one minute, he must do 125 points of damage during that time, or in other words, about 2.084 points of damage per second. Add a percentage of mitigation trough any means to that (def, resist, anything) and you are lowering the damage per second the enemy does, so now he must increase his damage by an amount that compensates so he can kill you within that amount of time.
There is the reason why a long fight favors a build that is based on healing, because you have more HP that must be removed to successfully kill you. And that is the same reason too that alpha strikes almost ignore regeneration and self heals, the damage per second of such a wave of attacks is so high that you never get the chance to heal up. This is the reason why you got to keep time into the formula, because I bet in house, the devs actually balance all enemies around how long they should take to kill X or Y build.

That being covered, there are two ways to increase your recovery rate:


+Regeneration

+Regen is simple, it’s a multiplication of your base regeneration factor. We regenerate at 5% every 12 seconds. We calculate our regeneration per second like this:
Regeneration = (0.05*(1+Regen/100/12)*100


Self Heals

Self heals are a different issue. First off, they work off our base hp, not our buffed HP, we must keep this into account because by this point we already equaled all hp values on the HP buff stage. First off all self heals must be calculated to aquire how much healing per second they can provide, then we sum all those self heals together (in the case of more than one) and we then use the value we get (HPS) trough this simple formula:

FinalHPS = (HPS/100*BaseHP) *100

So, our final maximum recovery per second is:

HPRecovery = Regeneration + FinalHPS

And now finally we get to the end line. At this point we analize balance. The formula to account how much damage per second must be done to kill you is this:

((1+(HPRecovery/100*Seconds)) / Seconds / (1-Mitigated/100))

Seconds is the amount of seconds you want to balance around. I think between 45 and 60 seconds is the average duration of fights in this game but you can toy with any number, you may find a better balance between sets that are more heavily tweaked towards healing on the 45-60 second range though. Going for longer fights tends to give benefit to the build with higher recovery based survivability while shorter fights tend to go against those same sets.
Now we have a final number we can compare with, but we still have to go around guessing what to compare it against, not to mention the number can be huge sometimes. What I did for ease of comparison is I predefined a small formula that just calculates the amount of DPS needed to kill the baseline, and I divide the result of the previous formula by this one.

((1+0.05/12*Seconds) / Seconds)

The complete formula is:

((1+(HPRecovery/100*Seconds)) / Seconds / (1-Mitigated/100)) / ((1+0.05/12*Seconds) / Seconds)

I am calling the number that comes out of the whole formula the CCK score. This stands for Controller/Corruptor/Kheledian since those are the ATs that are considered to have 100% HP, and it basically means how many times that must be used to kill you.

If the game is truly balanced around 1 hero = 3 minions, the CCK*3 should be the number of even minions you should be able to handle with some challenge.


Closing

These are a LOT of formulas, I know I would never go around doing all this by hand, so I made a small excel sheet that allows you to fill in the blanks so you can analyze your builds against the different damage types.

You can find the calculator here. If the link for some reason breaks please do send me a PM telling me about it.

You can find that here

Additionally I did a Min/Maxed version where all builds have every single possible power on their sets PLUS tough/weave/health all 3 slotted, and combat jump or hover single slotted for def.

You can find the minmaxed comparison here



[/ QUOTE ]
PLEASE do try to find errors on this but also dont do it just because of gut feelings, do it because you actually think something should be added or multiplied or whatever in a specific way and not the way I did.

Sorry I confused my forumla versions, if you just want to see the benefit of the hp buff itself you use 100 not 1. Not a typo, a full fledge messup on my part.

Also on the HPBuff i also expect a full percentage, so enter 60 not .6, thats why i divide by 100, to convert percentages to decimals. I made the formula to be used on an excel calculator of mine and wanted the user not to worry about 60% meaning .6 so I added that to allow a user to enter a percentage there.

BTW, note that in your example you divided RHP by 1000 on the second step, not by 100. 1/100 = .01 not .001

As for the division by 1 that you say seems to not do anything, I am not sure why I have it there, I know my full formula includes a load of other stuff so it may be a reminder of my extraction of this part. Taking out other calculations sort of made it redundant and I forgot to take it out before placing it on the guide, its the same as the whole RHP/100 * part being redundant if you are not going to compare diferent ATs.

As it stands it does is safe to remove it.

Here is the example (with that final division removed):

HPBenefit = (1-1/(((RHP/100)*(1+(HPBuff/100))))) * 100
HPBenefit = (1-1/(((100/100)*(1+(60/100))))) * 100
HPBenefit = (1-1/((1*(1+.6)))) * 100
HPBenefit = (1-1/((1*1.6))) * 100
HPBenefit = (1-1/1.6)) * 100
HPBenefit = (1-0.625)) * 100
HPBenefit = 0.375 * 100
HPBenefit = 37.5

I use the following formual on my guide:


RHP = Base HP relative to Peacebringers human form (tankers have 1.75)

HPBenefit = (1-1/(((RHP/100)*(1+(HPBuff/100)))/1)) * 100 * (1- (DmgDebuffBenefit + DefenseBenefit +RechargeBenefit + ResistBenefit) /100)

If you only want to think on pure HP benefit just use this part:

HPBenefit = (1-1/(((RHP/100)*(1+(HPBuff/100)))/1)) * 100


If you only want to measure the HPBuff that will provide you a resistance your self heals, just asume an RHP of 1.


Here is a sample sturdyness table with ATs and how they end up being "sturdier" (not counting hp buffs like dull pain)

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>AT RHP% Sturdiness
Tanker 175.0% 42.86
rute 140.0% 28.57
Scrapper 125.0% 20.00
Blaster 112.5% 11.11
Kheldian 100.0% 0.00
Corruptor 100.0% 0.00
Controller 100.0% 0.00
Defender 95.0% -5.26
Stalker 95.0% -5.26
Dominator 95.0% -5.26
Mastermind 75.0% -33.33</pre><hr />

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure that heals that heal you for a % of your life, which all self heals do, scale from dull pain, as does regeneration, which would mean from just your own point of view, a DP health boost by 60% would be like 60% resists that multiply on top of your real resists, although you resists straight number heals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im 100% they dont. Very easy to tst with a regen scraper, activate dull pain, afterwards activate reconstruction. You will see the heal back is based off your base HP.

Also may be a bit harder, but if you got an HP buff badge on a fire tanker it may also be easy to check, Activate healing flames and it will be healing 17.5% of your original base.

Regeneration is based of a % of your HP bar, regardless buffs or anything so it will be "boosted" with hp buffs numericaly, but it simply stays the same speed for the % of your hp bar, and thats the reason you can call HP increase resist-like, else it would be messier.

[ QUOTE ]
I should clarify what I mean by multipling on top of your real resists. What I mean is if you have 50% resistance, and 60% pseudo resists from dull pain, in a way you have 1/2 * .4 = .2 = 80% resists. But it's only true as long as you don't take external heals into account and you are comparing you vs your old self.

[/ QUOTE ]

As i noted, HP buffs make you resistant to damage and also to heals. BTW, dull pain fully sloted is a 59% hp buff and that equals not 59% resistance but 37.11%. The reason for this is a bit long to explain right now (i have a guide i'll post soon as i have to revise a bit on the formating) but the easier to understand example is that 100% hp buff would be like 50% resistance because your hp bar becomes twice as big and therefore damage would do half the damage to the % of the bar as they would normaly do.

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, something just doesn't feel right calling the hp boost resists, but the numbers work out anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

For this reason i like to call the benefit i get from HP buffs and high hp not resitance but sturdyness. Every type of mitigation in the game has its disadvantages, defense is not reliable on a hair from death because it rellies too much on luck, resistance is always typed and has holes here and there, -dmg and -acc debuffs are debuffs and will become weaker against stronger enemies, healing and regeneration will never stop one shooting as its not trully mitigation but fixing, and so on. HP sturdiness has the issue of making you stronger against the benefits of heals and self heals.

[ QUOTE ]
More base health is exactly equivalent to an increase in Res,

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly but there is more. Increased base HP equals increased natural resistance, or basicaly, its the same as having the same hp as everyone else but inherent resistance, only its a second layer of resistance that does not stack with the resistance we know now.

Additionaly, higher base HP does not only resists incoming damage, it also resists incoming external heals.

HP buffs in a similar maner also make you more resistant to both, damage and external heals, PLUS they make you resistant to self heals.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.

[/ QUOTE ]

T H A N K Y O U ! ! !

And all fear, if castle is not nerfing aid self yet its because they have not figured how to prevent its use for tankers without hurting squishies or because he has not convinced Geko to give the green light, but it will happen sooner or later!!! :P (just joking but it may be true)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Burning Aura cant really be counted as an advantage, every tanker but invuln has a damage aura.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but all the other damage auras do less damage.

That's like saying that, since every tanker set has a resistance auto, we should ignore them in balance considerations. But I wouldn't put RPD and Permafrost in the same category, just as I wouldn't include Blazing Aura and Icicles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not saying it does not get to be considered, I mean it cant be pointed as as an "advantage we must penalize your survivability for"

As for it doing more damage than other auras, i'll see if i run some tests on that to see how big of a diference it is.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll try to remember that when I take the alpha next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Heal per second is not what helps you against the alpha, its the big HP buff that does

[ QUOTE ]
There is more utility there than health recovery.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didnt argue the HP point you made, comparing those two powers heal sides alone, healing flames simply does more healing over time than dull pain. Im not arguing the power to be better overal.

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure what you mean by Burn is the only argument there...

[/ QUOTE ]

Burn is situational, if you cant hold/imob the enemy its no use, this means the mayority of fire tankers see no benefit from it.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you excluding Consume and Burning Aura

[/ QUOTE ]
Burning Aura cant really be counted as an advantage, every tanker but invuln has a damage aura.

As for consume, the damage it does is the most pitful thing you will see in this game, damage wise. I think Cobra Strike does more damge over the same ammount of time against 3 enemies (and yea i may be exagerating but its horrible for damage on a horrible timer, you use the power for the weak end drain, that does not compares to Ice's Energy Absorbtion)

[ QUOTE ]
Look- this has been going on for a long time now.
Fire has the lowest hp of all tankers
Fire has the lowest heal of all tankers
Fire has the highest damage of all tankers
None of this is disputable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Burn is the only argument of damage in the fire tanker (auras are in other sets and fiery embrace... a no acc buildup with double the recharge... yea... right...)

Burn is situational, and not everyone likes the power anyways. It does not do that much damage, defnitively not enough to make the tanker weaker than a scrapper, for you get not the offense of a scrapper with it even on those rare situations.

Oh and heal wise, truth is, healing flames is better heal per second than dull pain.

[ QUOTE ]

this is distorted. ED closed the gap between min max builds and casual builds by cutting off the min maxers at the knees. the rest of the game didnt change; casual players wern't greatly effected.

[/ QUOTE ]

The joint of I5 and I6 didnt only lowered the max capability of the tanker, it also lowerd the minimal capability. Yes, the gap between min and max is shorter now, but min is extremely low and max is, depending on the tanker, far from enough (fire, non granite stone) or simply holding there (ice/invlun)

[ QUOTE ]

Casual players weren't affected by ED, they were affected greatly by I5.

[/ QUOTE ]

ED also affected.

I was never a min maxer until I5 came arround, and i was pushed worse with I6.

I5 hurt casual players the most i agree, but with I6 i was able to six slot just 3 powers and feel way closer to a real tank (we all know fire was never the strongest thing arround).

So, to get back power i had to go for tough and other minmax build options, even so i perform poorly compared to invuln and ice. Having 3 powers 6 sloted was not really minmaxing, it was actually the first thing you would think about doing as a noob, to six slot the power that keeps you alive or the attack you feel is the best.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Healing Flames slotted with 3 Heal SOs and 3 Recharge SOs yields a heal of 582 available every 30 seconds.

Aid Self slotted with 2 Interrupt Reduction SOs, 3 Heal SOs, and 1 Recharge SO yields a heal of 651 available every 15 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. I hate fire tanks in general (still sour from the i4 days when they made all my hereos obsolete ), but that's messed up.

Can anyone pull this same comparison for all the other tanks and scrapps self heals?

[/ QUOTE ]

With proper sloting and, pool powers and no regeneration powers:



Brutes of 1.4
Scrappers of 1.25
Stalkers of .95

Tankers
Fire tankers heal 1.105 * 1.75 = 1.93375 hp per second
Invuln, ice &amp; stone heal 0.422 * 1.75 = 0.7385 hp per second

Brutes
Fire heal 1.105 * 1.4 = 1.547 hp per second
Invuln &amp; Stone heal 0.422 * 1.4 = .5908% hp per second

Scrappers
Invuln heal 0.422 * 1.25 = .5275 hp per second
Regen heal 2.005 * 1.25 = 2.50625 hp per second

Stalkers
Ninjitsu heal 1.583 *.95 = 1.50385 hp per second
Regen heal 2.005 * .95 = 1.90475 hp per second


I do have to say, note that it matters not much how much one power compares to others in other sets because other powers in this set may actually give such a high benefit that thigns do are balanced.

Unfortunately fire tankers are geting the short end of the stick on every aspect since the combination of all it's powers end up being sub par to other sets. I sugested a simple change to Consume earlier, to make it similar to energy drain, that would make set it in line with fire and ice sets. I posted it on this same thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget that the hp boost from the dull pains also makes aid self work that much better.

I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless Aid Self works diferently, all self heals work of your pure base. You can test this on a regen scrapper easily by activating dull pain and then using recontruction, you will see how the ammount healed back is the same as if you used whithout dull pain.

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to recall of my observations that Healing Flames healed a min. of 25% of Health. And Fire Tanks friend of mine had remarks about the difference in Healing Flame between the past and now. Something seems to have changed recently. And much later then Sept 2004 at that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, while everyone has been saying it was on I5 that it got messed i have been constantly telling i think it has been this way almost forever. Its just after I5 that people start noticing the issue since ED took everything down to a point where every bit of power is now required, forcing even the casual players to min max builds and bump into this issue really fast. So its not something that resent, its just something that we trully feel we need fixed now.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here's the scoop.

Heal Self is not affected by AT Mods directly any longer. I'm not certain when this changed, but it was before 9/21/2004. The Heal Self Table is now a straight 10% of the AT's base (unbuffed) Health. So, Tankers still see a greater effect from a Heal Self of even scale than a Blaster or Defender because their base health is higher.

So, these values ARE correct.

[ QUOTE ]
A level 30 Tanker using an unenhanced Healing Flames gets 178.5 health. With 2 SO's, that would increase to 296.31. 178.5 is 17.5% of a Tankers health at that level. 296.31 is 29% of a Tankers health at that level.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not tested Aid Self, but i have tested and analyzed Reconstruction vs Healing Flames.

They do not yield a better benefit to the tanker for having higher HP, actually, they give the exact same benefit to both, as 25% of a scrapper base HP is 17.5% of a tanker's base hp.

I have also not tested it personaly but i have been confirmed by various peacebringers their self heal in dwarf form actually gives then 25% of their dwarf form hp.

So, bug or no bug, changed or not changed, will it remain at 17.5%? Do you actually think its right for it to be so?

I can see part of our diferences then, because the numbers you started to dispute were pure mitigation.

Also, the formula you state is not constant and require to know what enemy you are fighting, so its only useful to determine how you fare against a specific enemy. Mitigation lets you to check how good you are against all enemies relative to other sets. If i was comparing against other ATs id also include the "mitigation" that comes from having a naturaly higher HP base.


[ QUOTE ]
And I'm a programmer too, btw

[/ QUOTE ]

Shame on you for simplyfing formulas then, thats mathematician thinking!

[ QUOTE ]
Another reason, why it is important to have that 50% in your equation

[/ QUOTE ]

As i noted its just the way i do it because i feel better having the 50 visible as it also means less explaining as to where the number came from. Its exactly the same as the Def*2 you pointed, i dont argue that. But if tomorow they changed the multiplicative base to 55, id just have to change 50 for 55 while the whole def*2 becoems invalid.

Call it programer's preference, keeping variablesa arround that dont seem to have an aparent reason at the moment but can be used to tweak the process later on if there was need for it. Again, your def*2 is not wrong.

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I'm afraid I'm just going to have to disagree with you, and we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this part. I think knowing that 50% is important because I think it makes more sense to say, "The enemy is throwing out 1000 damage attacks, but I'm only taking 10% of that over time", not "The enemy is throwing out 1000 damage attacks that hit 50% of the time, and I'm taking 20% of the damage that hits over time". That's what I meant when I said its only sort of true in the i7 world.

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Lets run one example.

One minion, he can toss 100 attacks in a minute (just imagine) each of 1 point of damage. His accuracy is of 50% so he will only land 50 of those. This means the natural DPM of the enemy is of 50 damage per minute.

If you are naked, no buffs, no resistance, no defense, you suffer 50 damage per minute on his hands. That’s pure damage. That’s your enemy potential.

If you add a 46.8 resistance, that goes down to 26.6 damage done to you. You lowered his normal dps by 23.4 points of damage, or 46.8%.

Once fully slotted invuln gets 12.94 Def and 34.00 Resist. This is counting the unyielding debuff and only one enemy in melee range.

Out of the 50 minion hits, now we take away 12.94 (I’ll go with fractions even if truth would you can only miss or not for what it matters, so now the enemy only hits 37.06 times, causing only 37.06 damage in one minute.

Now you have also resistance. You can reduce this damage by 34%. So 37.06 become 24.4596 points of damage. That is, by now you have reduced 25.5404 points of damage, or 51.08% of the incoming damage.

I7 def changes make sure this holds true across all enemies regardless of rank or level difference.

I got to say you are the first person I ever seen that wants to pass an enemy's naturally low accuracy as part of your own mitigation.

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To say it doesn't matter is to ignore a vital part in how defense plays a role in damage mitigation

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An enemy wi th 50% acc will hit 50% of the time himself, you are not mitigating the damage he tosses, HE is the one with lower damage output, its not mitigation on your part, so you cant account that. Enemies damage IS balanced arround how much they miss. You can only call mitigation to the reduction of the damage that would normaly go trough. this means, an enemy with 50% acc that attacks 10 times per minute at 10 dmg has a normal damage output of 50 dmg per minute. THAT is what you will go mitigating.



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This can be simplified down to Defense benefit = Def * 2. This assumes the gneral rule that one defense = 2 resistance, which is NOT accurate in the current i6 world.

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I did noted i am using I7 def changes, and i note it that way so that the 50% acc base remains visible on the formula. I simply like seeing it there, if it was to change i can change it there.

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It is true in the i7 world, but only in a sense.

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I seen nothing to show anywhere an exception of why it would not be so in I7. If you know of somemething that will change that, plese post it.

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What is it about a red name post that bring everyone together to talk about a lot of different issues.

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Healing flames has been discussed as part of the many issues fire tankers face now, the dev here posted on it alone but its not an isolated thing because it is simply a sub set of the fire tanker issues.

If Castle wants to keep the things focused ONLY on the healing flames issue i do can see that, but you cant expect talk about fire balance to go by without everyone that has solid observations about fire balance being messed up not commenting.

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It only takes 2 enemies in melee range to make the invuln better than the fire against energies.


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For example, 46.8 resists from a fire tanker against an even con minion mitigates 77.1% of the incoming damage (50% base chance to hit).


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1) you cant do that. 46.8 mitigates 46.8 nothing else. The fact that the enemy has 50% acc does not matter.

As to how to come up with the numbers?

Here:

DefenseBenefit = Def/50 * 100
ResistBenefit = Resist * (1- (DefenseBenefit) /100)
HPBuffBenefit = (1-1/((.01*(1+(HPBuff/100)))/1)) * 100 * (1- (DefenseBenefit + ResistBenefit) /100)

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Is that including the -5% DEF debuff on Unyeilding Stance? That seems a bit high with only one person in melee.

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Yes i include the debuff, i also include tough hide, invince and pasives all being 3 sloted for their stuff.

And for one enemy the number is rather low not high. Try to survive against an energy/elemental AV without backup like that.

I stoped complaining about tankers being too weak a while back, my current grudge is against specific power sets and fire is one of the worse sets in the game. [third to energy aura (2nd) and scrapper SR(1st)]

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Not sure if you're being serious. But you are aware that Invul gets defense and resistance pre-32? Invul is much better on Sm, Le damage, a lot worse on Fire, almost the same on Cold resists and worse on Eng, Neg.

But Invul also has defense.

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Er, unless it's changed recently, Fire/ gets 30% resistance base to En/Neg damage through one power. Invuln/ gets 17.5% through two powers. Even if you include the defense in Invuln against an average-sized group, that's hardly breakeven.

Comparably, Invuln/ gets 12.5% more Sm/Le resistances if my numbers are right.

I'd consider universally applicable benefits, for less of a power investment, and reliable powers to be well worth the defense difference.

But, yes, Burn needs to have some purpose attached to it.

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Once you stack up resists and defesnses with I7 changes, invun mitigates about 76.4% of the incoming energy/element damage once he has 10 enemies arround.

Full comparation:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Enemies: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Mitigation: 46.11 49.52 52.92 56.32 59.72 63.13 66.53 69.93 73.33 76.74
w/dullpain: 66.11 68.25 70.39 72.53 74.67 76.81 78.95 81.09 83.23 85.37</pre><hr />

This is with 3 slots in each power.

Resistance for fire tankers to energy/n.energy would be 46.8

It only takes 2 enemies in melee range to make the invuln better than the fire against energies.

Edited to include mitigation with dull pain up