Starsman

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Just curious... 150% is this in reference to the global recharge that could be monitored on a toon? Or does number also include the recharge slotting for individual powers?

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You get to pick.

Basically it assumes the power gets 150% recharge, part of it can come from slotting part form global recharge. It could all be pure global recharge. Obviously it all can't come from slotting as the ED cap will be 95%.

In the end for my calculator it's irrelevant where it comes from.

Kruunch faded after my post (that he did not read) noted clearly how "gauntlet" accuracy is enhanceable. By this point he may had already labeled the entire thread pure minutia and walked away.

Lacrymosa may eventually post replying only to BrimstoneBruce and claim the only reason it works for mud pots is because it does damage, he wont bother checking Sarrate's demo records.

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Hey Starsman,

I didn't see if you said you'd be willing to make up a chart of a high recharge dom (ie perma dom rech, with hasten, and decent rech in each attack)?

I'd say: 80% global, hasten, and 60% in each attack (I know you just use it as one value, just breaking it down to show the rationale), but anywhere in that neighborhood would be awesome.

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Here you go

Its set at 150%, bit higher than you noted but figured I'd stick close to the High Recharge value I use in my other melee charts.

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Okay, since I didn't want to bother any of my friends, I made a quick AE mission with 3-5 Cyclops/Minotaur EBs and 1 EB Fire Blast / Fiery Aura ally. (Ally is brain dead and tends to unnecessarily eat AoEs.) Since I don't have FRAPs, I took a coh demo of the four characters I tested. All test runs were done on Unyielding setting facing lvl51-52 enemies. None of the auras have taunt enhancement.

Zip file of demos

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More fallacies dressed up as fact filled evidence to cover-up dev fanboism and life lacking number crunching individuals!

Don't you guys realize you look cooler if you ignore facts, act as if your misinformation was accurate and and insult others that post facts bragging about how much you ignored them!

You idiot, elemental swords fade when you let go of them... jumping on it once it poofs does nothing!

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Videos

I made two videos. They aren't the most scientific things in the world, but I think they suit our purposes well enough. I took my old shelved Level 50 namesake into the back corner of RWZ. I was accompanied by a friend on his 50 Elec/Elec blaster. Using only Mud Pots, I rounded up a group (usually around a corner) and let the blaster cut loose on them. For this, Mud Pots was slotted only with 2xEndredux. I used no other powers other than Granite.

Video 1
Group of level 51 Rikti. Corner pulled, then unleashed the blaster. The blaster pulled a couple mobs, but I think they may have been out of range of my taunt aura. The group got pretty large when the Comms officer started summoning. Although he nabbed a couple away, I was able to take them back by moving within range.

Video 2
Almost identical results to video 1, except here we had level 53 Rikti. Held aggro well, lost a couple due to range issues, and was able to re-establish aggro through the blaster's attacks. (Oh, and have mercy on my Stone Tank... I wasn't paying attention to his health, and he's currently a tad underslotted defensively.)

There was a third group, but I forgot to turn on the recorder. That was a group of level 52 Rikti, and I did not lose aggro on a single critter throughout the fight.

Well, that's about the only evidence I have, since it's my only lvl50 tanker, and finding volunteers for something so boring is difficult. It wasn't purdy, I ain't teh uber, but there it is.

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How dare you provide evidence that backs up our dev fanboiism?!

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Does VS use the pet damage scale? If so, the changes won't affect it, but since pets have a higher base ranged damage than Dominators (even after the changes) that's no big deal.

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VS uses pet mods, yes.

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Oh, Starsman, just curious... what program do you use to make those charts? It looks like you have some pretty fancy calculations going on that seem like more than just Excel can handle...

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Google Docs Spreadsheet. All functions I use are supported by excel but one, one that makes the cornerstone of it all (a resort selection formula that does not require manual resorting of a full section.)

Definitively, they would be doing more damage than any blaster in the game too.

BS

Freedom is the "i dont care what you are, join me and lets get the ball rolling" server.

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i15 is the most useless issue they have ever put out

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Knocks at cranium
*listens to echo and bat noises*

Ah......

The reason Elec "went down" (mind you, not by a lot) was because of some extremely high Damage Per Activation Time powers being reduced in damage/recharge. These powers will be up more often but also yield less damage per activation time. The net result is barely palpable after the base modifier increase, though.

Hmmm... I think I was having VS buffed by domination in my "Before" now that you mention it... i don't think VS benefits from domination so I got to review that....

I never accounted it scourgeing, btw.

That being told: VS actually is free damage so no, it does not pull down the set. On the other hand, without it you do much less damage. I like to think about it as a focused damage aura. You can't control who will be hit every tick, but it will hit some one. If facing a single foe it will stay put on him. With many foes it may spread the damage a bit.

Edit: double checked, I didn't.

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There goes your chance at the bug hunter badge

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If I thought badges were worth anything I might find that disheartening.

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It's also not true.

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Finding a bug that the devs find worthy of a bughunter badge will only yield the badge if you keep it quiet and report it. That was the original point and it does is true.

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i thought i read somewhere (badgehunter.com?) that Bughunter is no longer rewarded..

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It is still awarded, much more often than before, though. They used to be a bit more picky with rumors saying if you dared mention the badge you would not get it even if they were considering to give you one to begin with. It has been claimed this is not true. The badge is, in big part, used to lure people into quietly reporting potentially exploitable bugs.

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To be more precise: it was an issue with Gauntlet in tankers (and to a lesser degree all targeted aoe attacks with very small radius.) True single target attacks never had the "impossible to hit moving targets" issue.

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Single-target attacks had a different issue. You couldn't get them to activate reliably. You could queue an attack and chase after a running opponent, and it was significantly unlikely that the attack would actually activate unless you ran past the opponent, rubbing shoulders with it the whole time.

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That was more of a PvP issue and how Auto Follow works, and Auto Follow is the best way to deal with moving foes in pvp if you are melee. Not that it made huge difference there, you still have to rub shoulders but now you don't have to do it so darn close.

In pve it was just a bonus as pve critters rarely move a much.

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...

Issue 0, release, whatever the hell you want to call it, had PvP? You still aren't getting it.

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I figured we were still talking about the issue that encouraged melee attacks to be moved from 5ft to 7ft.

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Actually Starsman would it be possible for you to do up one more chart demonstrating a heavily IO'd dom live vs test.

I'm thinking:
60% rech enhancement
70% hasten
80% global rech
210% rech, or 3.1 modifier.

Basically single stack perma dom with accompanied recharge levels vs that same build on test?

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Right now I'm assuming 50% recharge that can come from anywhere, be it slotting or set bonuses.

I can increase the number easily the question is to how much while expecting it to be realistic the used powers will be properly slotted for damage.

I'm using 50% recharge.

Look at the far right, if you sum the percentages by the names and don't get 100%, then there do are gaps. (no I have not checked that rushing to a meeting.)

Still, using those powers Fire is keeping up almost tied with energy, gaps or no gaps.

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Per usual I didn't read Starman's babbling, but I have to say that I am impressed he constrained himself to two sets of bullet points and no graphs.

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Hey, i have not babbled even half as bad as you have through this thread

But you should read the thing if you don't want to look like a fool correcting people on things you are wrong about

But who am I kidding, we both know you read it.

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This implies that you do not understand how Gauntlet works precisely. The fact that you are unaware that the accuracy of Gauntlet is not enhanceable and the fact the you aren't sure whether it does indeed need a toHit check per mob it attempts to effect leads me to question your "tests" and your general knowledge of agro in terms of how it applies to Tankers versus my knowledge through what I've experienced in game playing with normal groups.

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The fact that you think Gauntlet's accuracy is not enhanceable leads me to question anything you say about what you think is right, however you do are right in that Gauntlet does need a to-hit check.

As for the enhanceable bit: A power is either entirely enhanceable for accuracy or it's not. All melee attacks in tankers are AoE and they have their respective accuracy values that is enhanceable. This applies to the gauntlet attribute and any other attribute.

As a rule of thumb: anything that is on the base activation trait of the power (if you go to city of data this would be the [More Detail] box) exists in only one form and not independent for each trait.

Now, a power attribute can actually be set to do one of two things that make it's accuracy behave different from the overal power:
<ul type="square">[*]It can override auto hit traits[*]It can self-impose a tohit debuff[/list]
The later just means the to-hit of the trait would always be behind the to-hit of normal effects but it still is enhanceable.

All tanker gauntlet taunt traits suffer such a penalty, they have a -20 To Hit De Buff but only against AVs and other "raid" targets, but the base is enhanceable. Taunt The Power does not suffer this penalty, its auto hit on all situations (outside of PvP.)

As an example, lets say you have an attack that has a base 75% tohit, well, gauntlet there will have a 55% chance to hit. Somehow enhance the thing to take you to 120% tohit (soft capped at 95%) and your taunt will have a 100% chance to hit (soft capped to 95%) but this is only against AVs/Giant Monsters/Hami/etc


The cases for the auto-hit override are rare but can be seen in Mud Pots damage component. You will notice the last 3 lines state:

<ul type="square">[*] 0.18 Fire damage Not auto-hit [*] 1.00000 Melee_InherentTaunts Taunt (mag 4) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20% [*] 1.00000 Melee_InherentTaunts Taunt (mag 4) PvE only, not a Raid mob (like Hami) [/list]
You will noitice that in this power, the last taunt trait affects any foe with the power normal accuracy rules (in the case of Mud Pots, it's auto-hit.)

Also, mud pots is one of those rare auto-hit powers that accepts accuracy enhancements precisely for those traits that are flagged to override the auto hit nature.


Now, there is one gimmicky way the devs could make the accuracy of gauntlet independently non-enhanceable but it would be darn messy. It would require that you just hit the foe and summon a taunting pet, the taunting pet can transfer aggro to it's master once it poofs but if set to ignore accuracy it would result in "unenhanceable" gauntlet.


Straight enough?

Edit to add:

Note that Sorciere said: That is what I believe is currently the case.

Sorciere did not claim not to know, she just happens to be a player that despite knowing the theory does not believes it until tested. The reason you happen to know is because you did a test yourself. Not one highly controlled and with high margin of error but one that managed to prove the requirement of to-hits for taunt. Additionally you been criticizing her for something you did after seeing an oddity, don't you think that's rather hypocrite?

You know, you got to... well.. go there to the critter to, well... have that melee range aura hit them in the first place?

Not everyone will be within reach just because the tanker jumped in the center of the spawn and posed pretty. The things have 8ft radius not 50ft.

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If you were a *real* Tanker playing with a *real* group of people (not a controlled experimental setting (seriously?)) you would know that taunt auras by themselves do not hold agro well enough.

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In simple terms: you are wrong, unless the taunt aura is Willpower's.

OR if the tanker decides to stand still and not follow the critters.

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There goes your chance at the bug hunter badge

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If I thought badges were worth anything I might find that disheartening.

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It's also not true.

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Finding a bug that the devs find worthy of a bughunter badge will only yield the badge if you keep it quiet and report it. That was the original point and it does is true.

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To be more precise: it was an issue with Gauntlet in tankers (and to a lesser degree all targeted aoe attacks with very small radius.) True single target attacks never had the "impossible to hit moving targets" issue.

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Single-target attacks had a different issue. You couldn't get them to activate reliably. You could queue an attack and chase after a running opponent, and it was significantly unlikely that the attack would actually activate unless you ran past the opponent, rubbing shoulders with it the whole time.

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That was more of a PvP issue and how Auto Follow works, and Auto Follow is the best way to deal with moving foes in pvp if you are melee. Not that it made huge difference there, you still have to rub shoulders but now you don't have to do it so darn close.

In pve it was just a bonus as pve critters rarely move a much.

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No doubt. I'd hesitate to quickly recommend fire for anyone looking for a ranged dom unless they plan a high recharge build. Whereas it was the ticket before. That said, high recharge fire looks very good.

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For what I see both energy and fire share similar recharge rates so both may need similar recharge levels to hit a gapless chain.

That being told, Fire is just slightly behind, Energy has a score of 2.07 and Fire 2.03. they are so close I'd call it almost a tie, only Energy has better mitigation built in and fire also gets to be nasty AoE.

More changes just for the sake of precision.

<ul type="square">[*]I find endurance efficiency to be an important prioritization factor, therefore I did a change on attack priorities based on the damage modifiers to take advantage of the higher melee modifiers. This means that melee powers will be favored over ranged ones.

The priority assumes a 10% advantage by using melee attacks, therefore a ranged attack's damage per activation second must exceed a melee one by 10% to be considered "better", anything less than 10% and the melee attack will be preferred even if its not really better damage wise. For one, this make Telekinetic Thrust be used in attack chains.

In the old world the discrepancy was even bigger, 15% to be exact, so in the "before" cases melee attacks are even more preferred than ranged ones.

However, in theory, this lowers the dps of sets that rely more on ranged damage.
[*]As requested by _Ail_, here is a link to a version (with dom) that refuses to use melee attacks. It does, however, uses all cones, just avoids PBAOE and strictly melee attacks.[/list]

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Overall the ST damage seems to be an improvement. Starsman's chart in the other thread shows this. I'm just a little let down by the piddly AoE portion of TS.

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Well, the set is not really oriented towards AoE damage. It's a more ST centric set.