Starsman

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I've never found this to truly be the case. Yes, a team might not Want the second tanker, but frequently the second tanker IS valuable. There are many many rooms with several groups easily aggrod but not close enough to keep taunted easily. The second tank is very useful there.

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Definitely. Multiple Tanks can also pull those groups together to wipe them out with AoEs even quicker. Or you can split up the team to speed up a defeat all mission.

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I don't agree with these tactics being possible on most of the missions, although they can work. However, even if they were accepted you can't stretch that to a third tank.

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Or you can just go all Tanks and be a rolling ball of destruction.

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Immortally slow destruction

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QR

We already have this problem but I understand that I16 may magnify it.

Removing buffs may be beyond the game engine however we may be able to convince the devs to add some setting that prevents us from being buffed by non-teammates. In teams, if you don't like them you can quit.

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It's not beyond the game engine. We can remove empowerment buffs. By rightclicking on them in the powerlist. They should be able to code the same thing to do it from the buff display.

I would like the ability to remove thermal and sonic buffs, the graphic effects give me headaches.

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Empowerment buffs are not buffs, they are temporary powers.

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Since changing you colors will be -20% damage how many of the non-carebears will actually do this?

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That 20% is a maximum value. Remember, it scales depending on how far you deviate from the correct color.

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You are misleading them with this statement, you forgot to tell them the correct color is NOT the base one all start with and they have to guess what the correct color is. Imagine my surprise while playing mega-closed-beta and find that the "correct color" for dark melee was bright pink.

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No, I'm genuinely sorry.

If people had stuck to their guns instead of rolling over and taking it or walking away from the game, Tankers wouldn't be rodeo clowns.

Tankers got screwed over, and people with attitudes like that allowed them to be screwed over.

I'm not trying to bait you into anything, because like I said, I think you've been broken. And the only thing useful broken are pack mules, which appropriately, are what Tankers are little more than.



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"Damnit, people! How dare you start enjoying this game? Why can't you hang on to your pointless rage!? What do you think this is, some sort of entertainment device!?"

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Unlike J_B, I was not able to sit for long on this chair while playing. Got one of these and found the game much more fun since. J_B should try them, they make your characters look SO much better.

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Is a damage boost even necessary on a team, though?

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Something is needed in a team to make a second tanker useful. ST damage is the less intrusive thing I can think off. It's even less intrusive than the often desired Bodyguard as Bodyguard has the potential side effect of making the team WAY too safe.

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It would also increase survivability, especially considering the existing amount of ST and AoE mitigation available to Tankers.

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Under less threat, since they're being defeated faster, so the boost may be short-lived and less noticeable. Especially considering the usage of AoEs in those circumstances.

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The funny thing is, the faster you kill the faster you loose damage. You may find eventually sticking to old fashioned AoE damage (that is not buffed at all, just as it always was) may be a better strategy.

As for AoE mitigation, its always been there and would not change at all.

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I don't think the "I can/can't solo well" argument was even the premise of the Dom changes. It seems to be a change in order to give Doms more team purpose, especially in situations where control is more or less mitigated (AVs).

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The point? If it was not a point it means that we can indeed buff tanker solo without a point.

However it was a small point. Doms were considered to, for the most part, perform perfect while in perma domination, and sub par while out of perma-domination. This was in all levels, team or solo.

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Only assuming that Tanker damage mods aren't re-balanced to keep them from being OP. Without a change, it seems more than easy enough to womp that tough boss in seconds and then AoE the numerous minions to smithereens--such a situation, honestly, seems to make me believe that "number of enemies" isn't as good of a gauge as perhaps level of enemy * rank with quickly diminishing returns.

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You may want to read my very basic proposal again.

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A wild idea popped into my head today. What if Gravity's Dimnsion Shift power, not only rendered mobs intangible, but invisible as well? The biggest problem that DS has on teams is most people not understanding that the shifted mobs have been removed from the fight. Basically, players aren't sure who to attack and who to leave alone.

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I think you are on to something here... It's not the only problem but it would make thematic sense for DS foes to become invisible.

Still would like something more hands on for all shifts, though. Invisibility for Sonic's or Force Fields cages do not make sense and it would be better if they just became impossible to target. I know the flag exists because there are critters that can't be targeted at all, and the Striga TF has robots that you don't even know are critters until that flag is removed and they jump off the assembly lines to fight you.

Stealth would be a quick way to do it, if the flag can't be set by powers. Regardless it makes sense for DS to make foes invisible.


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Those shifted mobs should probably become visible again, a few seconds before their intangibility drops. That way the team could prepare for the fight without being caught by surprise.

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Well, technically there may still be surprise, few will memorize that the sapper was between the shifted foes.

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Also perhaps turning this power into a toggle, so the caster can control exactly when the mob re-appears.

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Would be nice, now it is possible, but not sure how willing the devs will be to change how the power activates.

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Here are the real reasons I see for a tanker damage buff:


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Let's not refer to anything we talk about here as a 'tanker damage buff'.

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That skipped my proofreading, i didnt wanted to note damage buff but not because of what you note, instead because there are other altenratives that may make tannkers viable other than offensive boosts of any type.

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That'd be fine if it doesn't make much of a load on the servers. Still wouldn't be enough for some people who apparently insist on doing enough damage to solo an AV on any Tanker combo, though honestly they don't count as sensible, and are thus disqualified from grown-up talk .

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Properly balanced it won't be the key to soloing AVs, however, it will help in AV fights if implemented close to what i noted because the count wold be weighted on the foes surrounding you.

An AV would, off course, yield a much higher value than a boss.


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Still don't really find a need for this though, as it's generally quite easy to solo anything short of an AV as is. That is, unless as part of this change, Tanker base damage was actually dropped such that a buff with 3 minions in range would bring them back to roughly where they are now. That'd allow for high peaks but lower valleys. It'd also make things suck in the lower levels and probably feel slower levelling into the 20s.

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Here are the real reasons I see for a tanker buff:

<ul type="square">[*]In teams, a second tank is redundant and usually undesirable, taken only because the first tank sucks, because nothing else was available while forming the team, or it was a buddy. Damage offensive even if stuck to single target makes the tanker a bit more desirable.[*]Although the tanker does not dies often he soloes slower than scrappers due to lower endurance efficiency. Tankers pay ~50% more end for their attacks than scrappers making them not only kill slower but also use much more endurance. This is not counting the tanker is forced to use his toggles for longer burning even more end if they want to "leverage" their survivability.[*]Going Rogue will bring Masterminds over, and players may realize that masterminds (yes masterminds, not brutes) are a better alternative to tanks in 90% of the game content. (Defenders face a similar threat with Corruptors, and despite arguments to the contrary I honestly can't see such a level of obsoletevity threat to any other AT in any side) [*]Supposedly the devs are trying to make dominators more popular, if popularity is indeed a goal then tankers need a hand too, as they are at the bottom of the hero side popularity barrel, and it's likely the last two points are the reasons. [/list]
Rewarding the tanker that surrounds himself with dangerous foes with more ST damage would help leverage survivability in a meaningful way.

Giving tankers more ST damage would make multiple tankers work better while together.

The "i can solo well" argument does not go far because, well, I was able to solo my Dominators and look what they doing to them now. Other than defenders (perhaps personal play-style) I have never had issues soloing any AT, yet most ATs have been tweaked in one way or another.


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In other words, a change that would be fun and exciting in the higher levels, where your survivability is good enough to handle large numbers of foes, but something that, due to balancing reasons, would make the low levels more painful than they are now.

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A damage boost that rewards you for any foe in range would be a buff at any level of play.

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Well, it sounds good to me. But with all ideas here, it's having the majority support that makes-or-breaks

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Only one vote really matters: Castle's. He does not implement things based on pure popularity voting because, well, what do players know! He would look at things based on how good it sounds to balance out and then gather votes where it matters: a Dev Team meeting.

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Great_Briton, your analysis is very good, but Statesman had a good point and it's one that Arcanaville keeps trying to push down people's throats because players refuse to understand it:

There are no comic book Tankers.
There are no comic book Scrappers.

These are CoH concepts, constructs made for this game with specific gameplay patterns in mind.

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Again, this was in 2005. I only brought it up now because of the sense of deja vu I was experiencing.

I did think that way. I don't now. I got better.

*sounds of electro-shock therapy*



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The thing is, it is a smart thing. If there was a way to make tankers be at risk but be strong ST I would be tottally behi.l.... hmmm.... i think it CAN be done...

Hmmm...

Let me see....


Give tanker a FoeCount aura that just serves as a count of foes that are surrounding him... this aura "counts" foe rank, so .33 points for a minion, .66 points for a lt, etcetera... make an inner radius/outter radius play so that the very very near by foes count more than the further foes..

Now, give all single target attacks on the tanker extra bonus damage that is multiplied by the number of critters around you, this damage is not enhance-able so damage bonuses do nothing to it... result: you are stronger at single target the more danger you are it but your AoE is never improved!

With proper balance, this can make the tanker better at single target without stepping on scrapper/brute territory, nor would it improve tanker herding capabilities.

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MMMyeeahhh.... I don't buy that answer either, or Statesman and every other "Tanker" NPC wouldn't be doing 10 times as much damage as ours do.

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It's been noted a lot of times but lore wise Statesman is not a tanker, he is an Incarnate (not just an origin) and that puts him at the Superman level of power. Comparing tankers to Statesman is like comparing Colosus to Superman.

That being told, in-game, AV is an AT on it's own. A darn sturdy and heavy hitting AT. Hero critters are just the same AT with a different name.

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It always seemed to me that they preferred to ram the AT-group-MMO-Thing down our throats.

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The original game design WAS intended to be an AT-Group-MMO. They were going the full trinity thing:

Damage dealers kill.
Tankers hold aggro.
Defenders heal/buff/increase kill speed
Controllers hold everything but the bosses that forced keep the tanker with a job.

Many things were wrong in their numbers, though. Controllers stacking mez easily to hold bosses, damage dealers killing faster than they were able to be killed, tankers doing more AoE damage than intended, defenders stacking, etc. Not to mention miscalculation of many complex mechanics that made almost everyone solo decently.

Yes the game and it's content were designed as typical MMOs, it was CoV that was designed around a more general grouping mechanic were everyone was about damage (but doms but thats getting fixed)

Great_Briton, your analysis is very good, but Statesman had a good point and it's one that Arcanaville keeps trying to push down people's throats because players refuse to understand it:

There are no comic book Tankers.
There are no comic book Scrappers.

These are CoH concepts, constructs made for this game with specific gameplay patterns in mind.

Mind you, I ironically think you had a good point on game design in general, Super Strong and extremely survivable entities that are restricted to single target damage while you make some one that can kill groups much faster but be much more nimble, would had been quite a balanced way to go.

Off course then you would retain just one thing: The tanker would be overly sturdy, he would have no reason to surround himself by foes therefore he would always be safe in solo play. Something that is true now but AoE damage motivates tankers to herd more foes that start proving to be a challenge.

But this would mean redesigning the AT as a whole, not just the tankers but also the brutes and stalkers because once you give amazing ST damage to tankers you are forced to give something to all other melers that are only good at ST damage.

QR

We already have this problem but I understand that I16 may magnify it.

Removing buffs may be beyond the game engine however we may be able to convince the devs to add some setting that prevents us from being buffed by non-teammates. In teams, if you don't like them you can quit.

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I'm thinking that some people are overhyped about customization before we actually know how it will work and what it will work for. Which will lead to disappointment for some and a lot of whining. But hey, nothing new there.

I look forward to an alternate colored Fire Control at the very least.

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So far, I am only expecting them to allow us to pick one color tint for all of your primary and another for all of your secondary. I doubt there will be much more detail. I doubt you will be able to customize every single power's color individually. I doubt you will be able to change the particle types and i doubt you will be able to hide particles. I also doubt we would get to customize epic pool tints.

If any of that becomes possible, the delivery will exceed my hype. If just uniform tinting of prmary and secondary becomes possible, the delivery will match my hype. So for me at least, it's impossible for the devs to disappoint me.

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My view of comic Tankers

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My view of comic tankers is they don't exist, same way as there are no comic blasters, no comic brutes and no comic scrappers or defenders.

These are all things invented by this GAME and things the game are designed around.

This alone makes all comic arguments irrelevant. You can go ahead and keep trying to push that but it wont get you anywhere.

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If i was given somehow the ability to modify tankers, though, I would somehow modify them to be AoE specialists. They would not be the best at ST damage but they would be the most effective AoE fighter, both endurance and damage wise.

I have brainstormed a bit of a way to do that.

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Fiery Melee is already a good example of how to do this.

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In my opinion any offensive change for Tankers would have to:

-Allow them to be heavy hitting like Brutes and Scrappers.

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Tankers can have an offensive boost without becoming heavy hitters. Heavy hitting is your wish and for you there will be Going Rogue.



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-Make Tanker offense more interesting and distict. Of the melee ATs, Tankers' offensive distinction is that they don't have anything dinstinct. They are Scrappers without the puntuation of Criticals, Stalkers without Assassin's Strike. Brutes without Fury. In a sea of many flavours, they are plain vanilla. At least give them sprinkles.

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And making them heavy hitters "like scrappers or brutes" does not do that, all it does is destroy balance.

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-Have minimal impact on players who like Tankers as is.

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Now you trying to copy and paste from dominators.

I did not even looked at JBs suggestion but it sounds like his old mega-buildup suggestion, honestly I don't like it if it is that.

If i was given somehow the ability to modify tankers, though, I would somehow modify them to be AoE specialists. They would not be the best at ST damage but they would be the most effective AoE fighter, both endurance and damage wise.

I have brainstormed a bit of a way to do that.

A .9 increase in damage would not make Tankers broken.

It's a 12.5% damage buff from what we got now.

It's would take tanker to 76% the damage of a scrapper (and that's low enough for no one to pass on a scrapper in favor of a Tanker)

Heck, it would be nothing compared to the buff Dominators are getting despite of having Controller primaries.

However it's too boring of a buff. It would still keep tankers being "the lowest damage melee AT" and people would still whine, specially after power proliferation is complete (if it ever happens.)

If the tanker is found to need an offensive boost, I would like that to come in a more original form than just more damage. And No, fury is taken so think of something else!

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just hoping its not the ONLY thing in issue 16..the last 3 issues are meh and very small

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Honestly, they can make just a full issue about this and I'll be very happy. But there will likely be some content added, be it arcs or TFs.

After all, power customization does not lock down mission writers from doing their thing.

As for issues not having anything, note that Issue 13 and 14 were supposed to be just one issue it was due to player feature request they forced to split it.

Issue 15 is turning to be more than just 2 TFs, it's also turning to be Dominator's Revamp. For many that may not sound like a big deal, specially if you don't play doms, but it's a huge revamp going on there.

I16: Taste The Rainbow!!!

Green Stone Armors!
Black Invincibility
Anything-But-Pink Energy Melee!!!

It's coming it's all coming!

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Casuals don't jump in and out of melee. They didn't on blasters, they don't on doms, they don't on any AT.


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1) When I note in and out of melee I dont mean jousting, I mean staying at range doing poor damage if you dim melee too dangerous and go in close and personal in situations where your controls are strong enough to keep the melee safe.

2) You keep bringing the casuals into the topic but I seen enough casual doms doing good in live now to think that you want survivability compensated not for the casuals but for the retards. The game won't be balanced around retards.

3) Blasters did it and do it all the time, even casuals. Specially newbies. They tend to be more open on picking every power from their primary and secondary and actually test it and find how hard they hit with them.

Doms are not melee AT.
They are no ranged AT either.

Look at the sets.
It's not Fiery Blast.
It's not Fiery Melee.
Its Fiery Assault.

Melee are expected to jump in and out of melee, the are meant to get close to do damage and the foe is not capable of getting out of range to be safe. That is what Assault sets are really about.

I still remember this line form beta too: There is no safer moment to close in and use melee attacks than when your foe is held.

I think the devs sort of got the idea for Doms after watching pre-pet solo controller builds using every melee attack in the pool powers to solo a bit faster and effectively.

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Gauntlet, the power, is just a placeholder. The Taunt effect in all Tanker attacks IS Gauntlet.

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that is why i mentioned Brutes who have taunt in all their attacks but do not have Gauntlet.

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Criticals for scrappers is such a placeholder. Stalkers also get to do criticals, way more often than scrappers actually.

But Tankers do have a few other "inherents" if you want to call them such. Tankers have the unique inherent ability of having a bucketload of HP. Tankers have also an "inherent" that allows them to get 33.3% more resistance and defense from the same powers scrappers, brutes and stalkers have.

The inherent nature of an AT is much more than just that tiny icon with a description on it.

Disclaimer: I am not saying I would not change anything to tanks, anyone seen me post know otherwise. But arguments about "inherents" are a bit silly and commit the obvious: the tanker has much more inherent abilities than that icon notes.

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I tried out Da_Captain's (I think) suggestion about EBs at range, and my Fire/Elec can (slowly) take out an EB using just Ring of Fire with range slotted, Build Up and Zapp. It's handy if I don't have the necessary purples. If I could get Voltaic Sentinel to attack at its full range it would be way faster.

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How dare you propose the use of Snipes AND ST immobs in the same post?! Your blasphemy knows no bounds!!! Burn the heretic!!!