Starsman

I can see the devs pondering that. I have a hard time seeing you pondering that. Rest's interrupt makes it nearly impossible to use in combat, even if you managed to do it it applies extreme defense and resist debuffs that will get you killed.

In the end, rest just makes the downtime periods shorter while all the tools you noted allow you to simply keep going without having to stop for much longer if at all. Builds with such tools will always have an advantage.

I seen many ice tanks with perma horafrost, that requires a lot of recharge, enough to make Rest be up every time it's needed, I still don't see them forego Energy Absorbtion and Stamina just because they can rest whenever they feel like it.

Would make Brawl useless in the high end, and I don't think that was Arcanaville's goal other than it being sub-optimal dps-wise.

Making the power not allow IO Sets would be a bit more acceptable.

Funny you mention this, I been meaning to PM Castle about Brawl. If you have not noticed, for a power that is meant to be used by lowbies, the thing costs more endurance than most attacks, it costs 25% extra endurance AND it recharges at 2 seconds while it does the damage of a 1 second recharge attack. My proposal was not going to be as drastic as yours (removal of endurance alltogether) just to get it on spot and lower it's recharge OR increase the damage to it's rightfull place, if needed making the new found damage unennhanceable.

Being a devil's advocate: The problem I see with buffing brawl is the practice of loading it with procs.

Not to mention some set's tier1/2 don't really suck at all and are big part of attack chains. Along those lines I always thought the devs should make attacks who's DPS go bellow certain threshold receive an endurance discount relative to their suckyness, this would turn the myth of low dps sets being "endurance lite" a reality.

I hear I99 will increase the level cap.

Teaming and soloing are two different beasts and should be looked at separately. I rarely do anything other than defending in teams with my defender (sonic/sonic) this includes buffing and debuffing, including two toggles that are all the time up. Since I don't care about attacking myself in teams, team endurance issues are not a concern. Tankers, on the other hand, should be attacking on teams. But again, that's a different issue from the one i was illustrating above: soloing a spawn.


Ironically, my controller rarely had any endurance issues tanks to containment. Modifiers have not fully kicked in at early levels meaning I do higher damage than I should, and on top of that, I do double damage meaning amazing endurance efficiency. I had a kick playing my controller to level 20+, and his team demand was so high I rarely had to solo after that.


The thing with those, specially the Sorcerers, is they are exceptions not rules. They are some of the few units in this game that were designed as priority targets for holds/kills and their annoyance should not be listed as part of player balance analysis but instead of encounter balance.

That being told: I always found CoT easier at the high end when the ghosts stop spawning, ironic how the hardest units are low level ones. Critter ToHit Debuffs in this game are just too draconian and deserve one hell of a revision.


Works against Skulls, Hellions, Outcasts, Trolls, Skyriders, Council, Vahz, etc etc. Few groups are on my avoid list and that all depends on my skills. As a controller, i never avoid Tsoo, for instance.

All that aside: even if those characters were able to defeat 2 spawns before resting, Rest The Power is not up that often. It's a side topic but I have vouched for some sort of Rest replacement in the past, something that gave characters out of combat regeneration so that you regenerate simply by standing still and not fighting or being attacked. This would not speed the game drastically, would still need specific ATs to be looked at, but would make low level play much more friendly.

Those are not heroic spawns.

Heroic spawns are either 3 minnions or 1 minnion and a lt.

There is a chance indoors for the spawn being +1.

It should be noted that where others take the survival IO approach to attempt get close to Granite levels of survivability, a Granite build will use this approach to just invest in high recharge and mobile builds that overcome Granite's penalties.

Basically, yes. with one minor gotcha: the endurance approach takes longer, giving more time for those foes to potentially regenerate. Taking longer also means any toggle you are running will burn more endurance (at these levels i do a LOT of micromanagement with toggles and turn them off between fights, even turn off a toggle I dim unnecessary during the specific encounter.)

On the other hand, the damage focused approach is a bit more open to overkill waste.

The accuracy slotting approach is very valid still, after level 12 that accuracy starts to fade and it's good to have some accuracy slotted by level 20.

I will have to run tests on this again, but some time ago some one brought this up about defenders. I took a defender against a series of heroic spawns and didn't run out of endurance as fast as it was claimed. This was a Force Fields/Energy defender.

Mathematically speaking, IF a defender at that level was able to sustain 1 DS per second (and that would require a full rather optimal attack chain) he should be able to kill 6 minions at level 10 in a row, without pauses.

Given he will have to pause due to incomplete attack chain, bottleneck attacks that don't let him attack at optimal speed, and plainly to walk to the next spawn, he should be able to finish the second spawn without running out of endurance but very recommended to rest before the third fight.

All this is not to note that endurance is fine, I noted how I think certain ATs (specially defenders and tankers) have more end issues than others but the entire "can't finish a single spawn without running dry" sounds extremely overstated.

Tankers may have higher damage than what I just stated but they also run toggles to be, well, tankers. Oh and yes, I accounted for the low level modifiers on this test. Running the similar thing with tankers does not give tankers that big of an advantage over the defender, he would also have to rest after the 2nd heroic spawn (nonstop fighting dishing 1ds of damage.)

But there ARE alternatives. Sure, some are either expensive or available to specific primaries or secondaries, but they are there.

Still, people that have the resources or open doors to take these "alternatives" take both, not because Stamina is the only way but because Stamina is more of a good stuff that allows them to run faster without regard!

As for alternatives: pre-IOs, Arcanaville ran a very nice test she video captured showing a SO build that went the route of skipping stamina and taking end redux instead and it worked just as nice.

Sets like Willpower and Regeneration have access to quick recovery.

Sets like Ice Armor, Fire Armor, Electric Armor, Energy Aura and Dark Melee have endurance recovery powers that can be used to "replace" stamina yet people take both, because it just let them go even faster.

IOs allow people to make builds that don't sacrifice damage or accuracy, still have recharge and can get 95% end redux in almost all powers, yet people either dont because they want the high recharge builds or do it and still take stamina and any other thing that falls in their hands.

Perfromance shifters are often taken on top of stamina, another pointer at stamina just "not being enough" mentality that will forever stretch.

Dominators get to reset their endurance bar every 3 minutes, they still complain this is not enough even on top of stamina.

Players love to get a kin in the team on top of their stamina (not as replacement) to get insane endurance recovery rates.

The list of "options" go on and on, and in most situations, players take all that are available to them plainly and simply becasue more endurance allows them to do more (more toggles, faster attacking, more AoE, etc etc) and that will never change no m atter how many more alternatives the devs keep tossing at us.

The only thing I think is worthwile addressing is the cases where certain ATs just consume way more endurance than other ATs forcing them to run dry barely accomplishing anything.

As for a note I read earlier on the thread about Scrappers and tankers not being that different in the first 10 levels, well, thats half true.

Scrappers have a 12% endurance efficiency advantage over tanks at level 1 while fighting minnions. 17.4% advantage while fighting anything other than minnions. By level 8 this is a 20%/25.5% advantage respectively.

This keeps going on until at level 20 the scrapper endurance advantage is 47.7%/54.7% respectively.

Here is a table on the progress of that endurance advantage:

01 12.1% 17.4%
02 12.5% 17.8%
03 13.2% 18.6%
04 14.0% 19.4%
05 14.7% 20.2%
06 15.9% 21.4%
07 17.8% 23.5%
08 19.8% 25.5%
09 21.9% 27.7%
10 24.0% 29.9%
11 26.1% 32.1%
12 28.3% 34.4%
13 30.5% 36.7%
14 32.8% 39.1%
15 35.1% 41.5%
16 37.5% 44.0%
17 39.9% 46.6%
18 42.5% 49.2%
19 45.0% 51.9%
20 47.7% 54.7%

Have not been following this thread but was gazing through and this note caught my eye.

Enhancing attacks for endurance cost or for damage are both exactly equivalent as far as endurance efficiency goes.

Take an attack that does 1ds of damage and has 3 slots. Use the slots for damage. You do 1.25 damage. That's 4.158 end per DS.

Replace those 3 slots with endurance redux. The attack now costs 4.583 for 1ds, exactly the same amount of DS. Difference is that you are forced to fight longer and your toggles burn more endurance during that time (if you have toggles and that's the case with tankers.) Slotting for recharge instead of damage or endurance, though, that is less efficient.

Also, since ED does not kick until you slot SOs, it does not even matter if the player was uneducated on ED and went as far as 6 slotting for damage.


The only way to "fix" this is by removing stamina alltogether. Even if you give stamina as an inherent to everyone, if there is a stamina in a pool power players will still think it's needed. Stamina technically has never been desired, but extra endurance allows everyone to fight faster, no matter how much stamina you add to the base, the stamina pool power will always make you faster and therefore anyone else will be comparatively at a disadvantage if they don't take the pool.


Endurance costs has been reduced in the past, people still wanted more. Regen scrappers were still taking Stamina and Quick Recovery even after this endurance reduction. Heck look at dominators, they still complain about endurance even when they can reset their endurance bar with every use of Domination. The only way to entirely get rid of "stamina issues" is to get rid of endurance mechanics altogether, something that is unlikely to happen.

All that being told, "endurance issues" will always exist, but it should be noted that different ATs have more issues than others.

Extreme Haxor or Extreme Early Access, you be the judge!

Yea, went to the main announcement and read it. Already hunted down my evil clone and he only posted once 4 years ago, also I registered first, so I hope I win my name back