Stargazer

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Recharge intensive pet sets. I understood that these were created to increase the firing rate of the pets that they were accepted into. What exactly is their purpose now?

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That was never my understanding of what these sets were created to do. They are to increase the recharge rate of the summon power for the pet.

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A lot of people have varying understandings of these sets and the soulbound allegiance set and how they were intended to affect pets.

Does anyone have the dev info when these were implemented. And if that info does indicate that ONLY the summon recharge time was supposed to benefit and never the pet was there any dev followup done to stem the tide of posts indicating the belief that RIP and SA did improve pet performance?

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Well, if we look at what actually happened...

In early i13 closed beta, the RIP set IOs actually *did* improve the Recharge of powers belonging to the summoned pets.
During the beta a change was made so that Recharge no longer carried over to pets. Unfortunately this also blocked all *other* aspects of those IOs to carry over to the pet powers.

Now, consider what Castle said in the first post of this thread:
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For a long time, we didn't notice, but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets.

We tried a few alternatives, which essentially ended up making RIP IO's broken for several months in a variety of ways.

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If we try to add 2 and 2 together, it seems pretty obvious that the RIP set IOs were *not* intended to boost the Recharge of pets' powers, and that when the devs noticed that they *did* they made a change to prevent this. This fix unfortunately had the side effect of blocking other aspects of the RIP set IOs, something that they were not able to find a simple fix for, thus leaving the RIP set IOs essentially non-working until this fix was made.

To me at least, it seems blatantly obvious that the RIP set IOs were *never* *intended* to boost the Recharge of powers belonging to the summoned pets, and once it was realized that they did, that was prevented from happening (well before those sets even went Live).


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Finally if RIP sets weren't intended to make pets attack faster how was adding them to the game exasperating the problem?
"but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets." Castle

something is not adding up here.

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It was exasperating the problem because they were not *intended* to boost the Recharge of pets' powers, but they *did* - contrary to the devs' intent.

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EE's are odd little things, and inherit some but not all buffs from the caster. They will inherit things like Hasten, SB, and the Mires, but not Eclipse or other +def/+res shields.

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Hm. I wonder if the buffs can be categorized as "offensive" or "defensive", and if that's how they tell them apart. If so, +recharge might be considered an offensive buff since it increases your damage, and thus it's considered the same as a damage or accuracy buff power.

It would be interesting to find a power that has both a damage, to hit or recharge buff, which we know is inherited, and the some other property which doesn't seem to be inherited, like defense, and see if it is applied. I actually thought Eclipse was both a Resistance and Damage buff... (not sure why, really)

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That's an interesting idea.
Mind Link should do it.


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Update:
When using Mind Link on a Warshade before summoning a Fuzzy, the ToHit buff will carry through to the Fuzzy, but the Defense will not (checked with a Power Analyzer, so not going only by visual cues).

That'd seem to confirm that it's handled on a per-attribute basis rather than a per-power basis.

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EE's are odd little things, and inherit some but not all buffs from the caster. They will inherit things like Hasten, SB, and the Mires, but not Eclipse or other +def/+res shields.

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Hm. I wonder if the buffs can be categorized as "offensive" or "defensive", and if that's how they tell them apart. If so, +recharge might be considered an offensive buff since it increases your damage, and thus it's considered the same as a damage or accuracy buff power.

It would be interesting to find a power that has both a damage, to hit or recharge buff, which we know is inherited, and the some other property which doesn't seem to be inherited, like defense, and see if it is applied. I actually thought Eclipse was both a Resistance and Damage buff... (not sure why, really)

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That's an interesting idea.
Mind Link should do it.

edit: Fortitude, Forge and Enforced Morale too.

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I'm fairly certain all those will carry over to EE's (I'm 99% positive Fortitude does, less certain on the rest). Forge would regardless because it is only a +tohit and +dam buff (like a Mire).

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The "offensive" portion would definitely carry over, and thus icons should be shown for the powers. The interesting part is: What would it say about the "defensive" portions of the power info for the buffs that have been carried over?

edit: Yeah, I messed up on Forge. For some reason it triggered when I made a quick scan of potential powers.

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Slotting regular Recharge enhancements into Fire Imps or Lightning Storm will make their power info windows *report* a reduced Recharge for their powers, but that is only a display error, and it will *not* actually reduce that Recharge.
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Wonder if they are fixing the display window? or if people are just supposed to know that it does nothing.

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Good question.
That's more of a pohsyb-issue than a Castle-issue, but it'd definitely be nice if the power info window was more accurate (it's not always trivial to get right though).

[/ QUOTE ]The issue is that the display window isn't wrong. The pet is still receiving that recharge buff, in the same way that a Willpower Tanker with Strength of Will still receives recharge buffs. The individual power just doesn't benefit from the recharge.

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Technically the pet doesn't get the Recharge (from slotted enhancements), it's the individual powers that do.
Anyway, the power info doesn't show the Recharge bonus of the pet, it shows the Recharge *time* of individual powers, and it's that time that is shown incorrectly.

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Slotting regular Recharge enhancements into Fire Imps or Lightning Storm will make their power info windows *report* a reduced Recharge for their powers, but that is only a display error, and it will *not* actually reduce that Recharge.
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Wonder if they are fixing the display window? or if people are just supposed to know that it does nothing.

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Good question.
That's more of a pohsyb-issue than a Castle-issue, but it'd definitely be nice if the power info window was more accurate (it's not always trivial to get right though).

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EE's are odd little things, and inherit some but not all buffs from the caster. They will inherit things like Hasten, SB, and the Mires, but not Eclipse or other +def/+res shields.

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Hm. I wonder if the buffs can be categorized as "offensive" or "defensive", and if that's how they tell them apart. If so, +recharge might be considered an offensive buff since it increases your damage, and thus it's considered the same as a damage or accuracy buff power.

It would be interesting to find a power that has both a damage, to hit or recharge buff, which we know is inherited, and the some other property which doesn't seem to be inherited, like defense, and see if it is applied. I actually thought Eclipse was both a Resistance and Damage buff... (not sure why, really)

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That's an interesting idea.
Mind Link should do it.

edit: Fortitude and Enforced Morale too.

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Based on discussions at the time, I was pretty sure they gave them "buff" inheritance. Primarily they were interested in damage and toHit, for things like Ice Storm or RoF. Doing that by letting everything through was probably just the shortest path to the goal.

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Makes me wonder if psuedo-pets inherit the defense and resistance of their parent as well.

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They don't (unless what buffs are inherited can be specified on a pet by pet basis).

If a Warshade uses an Enrage or an Insight before using Dark Extraction the insp buffs will carry over to the pet, but if you instead use a Luck or a Sturdy, they will not carry over.

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I do remember the recharge inheritance and buff inheritance and the like being mentioned in the patch notes when it went into effect. When that patch went live, I knew because of the patch notes. I did little else aside from running around, eating as many reds as I could, clicking hasten, and then letting fly with Cages, LS and Tornado.

It is entirely possible that the recharge wasnt mentioned at all in the patch notes and that I learned about it from word of mouth. My memory could be faulty. I just remember that at least some of the types of inheritance to storm powers was acknowledged in the patch notes when the effect went into play. I have been a Stormie from WAY back.

I am still of the opinion that they did mention it, either in patch notes or forum posts, because I remember it. But, you know, 10 different people won't describe the same accident / train wreck / disaster / software patch the same way.

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This is the only reference I see in the i7 patch notes (www.paragonwiki.com):
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Many Location based powers (Such as Rain of Fire and Blizzard) can now be affected by the casters Buffs (for example, using Build Up will now increase the damage of Blizzard).

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I don't recall if any devs specifically mentioned Recharge being inherited or not, or if it was mentioned in any promotional material for i7 (or if it was mentioned in a later patch).

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Slotting regular Recharge enhancements into Fire Imps or Lightning Storm will make their power info windows *report* a reduced Recharge for their powers, but that is only a display error, and it will *not* actually reduce that Recharge. Those Recharge enhancements have no effect on the powers belonging to those pets. The powers simply ignore any enhancements of the type Recharge.

However, set IOs make it possible to bypass that. When I slot a Decimation: Acc/End/Rech into Lightning Storm, that's not a Recharge enhancement, it's a *Damage* enhancement

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OH!!!!!! Thank you for that explanation, I think I finally understand the mechanic!

The problem is that you can tell a power not to respond to Recharge Enhancements, but not recharge provided by an Enhancement, specifically. If you told it not to respond to Acc/End/Rech, it would not respond to the Acc and End as well. Plus, that doesn't effect inherited recharge. The only other choice is to tell it not to respond to +recharge AT ALL. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. If there were a way to allow recharge buffs, but not recharge enhancement (generically, not specifically) then that would work.

Of course, there is also the issue with pet AI, but that issue would be a lot easier to control if recharge were more controllable, and so much of it was not inherited in an unpredictable way. (If you could give a pet about 30% to 50% recharge and no more, say with a Unique IO, that would probably not seriously effect the AI)

What I wonder is why the IO is regarded as a Damage Enhancement and not a Recharge. Are all the IOs in a set treated as the same kind of Enhancement? Is there a coding reason for this? They obviously have to all be of the same Set IO type, to allow them to be slotted as a Set type, so maybe that overrides the normal Enhancement type. (In other words, they're not Damage Enhancements, they're Ranged Damage Set Enhancements)

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As far as I can tell, *almost* all IO set types (Ranged Damage, Resistance Buff, Hold) use *one* enhancement type for all IOs (the exception: The newish Universal Travel sets which would almost have to have 4 types, Fly, Run, Jump, Teleport).
(I've been hoping that more set IOs will gain more than one type)


For instance, every single IO in a Ranged Damage set counts as a Damage enhancement, every single IO in a Resistance Buff set counts as a Resistance enhancement, and every single IO in a Accurate Healing set counts as a Heal enhancement. This is independent of the bonuses those IOs give.

This means that they will only work in powers that accept those types of enhancements. Ranged Damage set IOs only work in powers that accept Damage enhancements, and Accurate Heal set IOs only work in powers that accept Heal enhancements.

When it comes to being accepted by a power, it does not matter what bonuses an IO gives, only what enhancement type it is. For instance, a Luck of the Gambler: End/Rech counts as a Defense enhancement, and can thus be slotted into the Super Reflexes passives, even though these powers are not slottable with (or benefit from) Endurance or Recharge enhancements.


There's one more thing that limits what powers we can *slot* enhancements in, and that's the set category itself. Ranged Damage set IOs will only be slottable into powers that accept Ranged Damage sets. However, this only limits you at the time of slotting, and does not determine in what powers the IOs will *work* once they're slotted.
As an example, early in i9 Swift/Hurdle/Quickness accepted Run/Jump sets respectively, which meant that you could slot the +Stealth IOs into those powers. Once those set categories were removed from those powers, you could no longer slot Run/Jump set IOs into the powers, but Run/Jump set IOs that were already slotted continue to work.


Basically, set IOs have two things that limit where you can slot them; the type of the set (Ranged Damage, Accurate Heal, Resistance Buff), and the type of the enhancements in those sets (Damage, Heal, Resistance). Once the IO is slotted, it's only the type of the enhancements that determines if a set IO works or not, and this is also what determines what sub-powers they are inherited by (in the case of pets).

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Could you speak specifically on what changes, if any, will be made to IO sets where +rech is either a set bonus or an actual buff in one of the enhancements of the set.
In other words, it kinda sucks if you've (I've) spent many millions on a purple set just for your pets only to find out that some of the buffs of that set, either bonuses or direct, are simply nullified, giving us nothing in return. At the very least, I think it would be fair to replace those buffs of that set with something roughly equivalent.
I'm eager to know if I should just dump the set now, or if compensating changes to it are in the pipeline.

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Recharge Set bonuses already have a very limited effect on pet powers.
Many pets aren't affected by these set bonuses (or other global Recharge buffs on the summoner) in the first place, and even those that do inherit Recharge buffs only get to keep them for the duration of the buff. Set bonuses are passives with a duration of 10.25 seconds (that keep refreshing every 10s), which means that even if a pet (such as Lightning Storm) inherits Recharge buffs, they'll only have the benefit for a *maximum* of 10.25 seconds (if the set bonus is refreshed just before the buffs are inherited).
Thus the main benefit (on pets) of Recharge set bonuses is that the powers you use to summon the pets recharge faster, and they will continue to do that after the change.

Set IOs containing Recharge will of course become less useful in pet powers when they don't boost the Recharge of powers belonging to the summoned pets, but they will at least still boost the Recharge of the powers that summon the pets. While this certainly won't be useful for all summoning powers (MM pets tend to have limited need for additional Recharge in most situations), there will still be cases where this is useful.
All of this will certainly make some sets less useful for many, but since the IOs will still have the effect they were *intended* to have, I'm not sure we should expect any "compensation" for it.

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[color= orange]While you could always slot powers like Lightning Storm and Fire Imps with Recharge enhancements, that Recharge did not carry over to the attacks belonging to the summoned pets. That situation did not occur until i9 (in some cases) or i11 (in other cases), when you were able to "sneak Recharge through" using set enhancements (that were not technically "Recharge enhancements") with Recharge in them.[/color]

The information in the Combat Numbers window is generally reliable (if you know how to read it), but when you're looking at reported Recharge rates you're actually using a "Power Info" window, and those are unfortunately not always reliable, especially when it comes to things like Recharge. Just look at the reported Recharge for a power, activate Hasten, and see if the number changes (it does not). On the flip-side, [u]look at a pet power slotted with regular Recharge enhancements, and see if the reported Recharge rate changes when you change that slotting. It does, [color= yellow]but the *actual* Recharge rate does not[/color].[u] Basically, the Power Info for pet powers always gives false positives for Recharge slotting, so it's not in itself a way to notice that slotted Recharge has in some cases been carried over to pet powers.

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Yeah, when I slot common recharge enhancements on my Fire Imps, the Combat Window would report enhanced recharge rates for their one power. I never noticed if they were attacking faster or not, though, but wasn't it the case for LS as well? Or LS bolts were not affected by recharge slotting but only by the player's global recharge bonuses (including Hasten)? Given recharge enhancements (IOs or not) were "enhancing" (in Combat Window numbers) Fire Imps' attack rate, one would figure it would enhance LS bolts' recharge as well, which could lead to the assumption that recharge being carried over to pet powers was, in a general sense, "working as intended," and hence they could invest their bazillions of inf on slotting for recharge. The only exception would be MM pets, which powers, by design, do not accept recharge slotting, except through one purple set.

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[color= orange]Orange[/color] part re-added by me.
[color= yellow]Yellow[/color] emphasis mine.

Slotting regular Recharge enhancements into Fire Imps or Lightning Storm will make their power info windows *report* a reduced Recharge for their powers, but that is only a display error, and it will *not* actually reduce that Recharge. Those Recharge enhancements have no effect on the powers belonging to those pets. The powers simply ignore any enhancements of the type Recharge.

However, set IOs make it possible to bypass that. When I slot a Decimation: Acc/End/Rech into Lightning Storm, that's not a Recharge enhancement, it's a *Damage* enhancement (that just happens to improve Recharge, and not Damage), and thus Lightning Storm's Lightning power happily accepts its bonuses, which happens to include Recharge. Because of that, you can use (set) enhancements to improve the Recharge of Lightning Storm's Lightning power, even though that power is intended to ignore all Recharge enhancements.
*That* is what they're trying to fix here.

[ QUOTE ][*]Self-heal powers like Reconstruction don't benefit from Heal IO set bonuses because Heal's "strength" is shared with powers that increase damage and resistance (or something like it). Feature (of having self-heals benefiting from heal IO set bonuses) is denied to players.

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Clarification:
It's for heals that also have enhanceable Resistance in them. Those powers must ignore "outside buffs", or Damage buffs would increase the Resistance you get from them.


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And now we have this new "bug that cannot be fixed", which takes away the ability of players to slow most of enemy pets' recharge rates.

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For PvE at least, this is something the devs have the ability to mitigate.


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It was still an error from the game designers to allow such thing for so long, and it really surprises me that they only knew about it *now*. Powers like LS, Fire Imps and such were always enhanceable with recharge and whenever it happened, the Combat Numbers window would report enhanced recharge rates for all pet powers. I do not believe the devs haven't noticed THAT, in all seriousness.

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While you could always slot powers like Lightning Storm and Fire Imps with Recharge enhancements, that Recharge did not carry over to the attacks belonging to the summoned pets. That situation did not occur until i9 (in some cases) or i11 (in other cases), when you were able to "sneak Recharge through" using set enhancements (that were not technically "Recharge enhancements") with Recharge in them.

The information in the Combat Numbers window is generally reliable (if you know how to read it), but when you're looking at reported Recharge rates you're actually using a "Power Info" window, and those are unfortunately not always reliable, especially when it comes to things like Recharge. Just look at the reported Recharge for a power, activate Hasten, and see if the number changes (it does not). On the flip-side, look at a pet power slotted with regular Recharge enhancements, and see if the reported Recharge rate changes when you change that slotting. It does, but the *actual* Recharge rate does not. Basically, the Power Info for pet powers always gives false positives for Recharge slotting, so it's not in itself a way to notice that slotted Recharge has in some cases been carried over to pet powers.

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I also have a question regarding the purple pet set (soulbound allegiance) which was [color= yellow]designed specifically to increase the pet's rate of fire[/color].

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On what are you basing this assumption?

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Is LS going to accept these problematic RIP IO's now as you are officially saying it is a pet?

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I think you're getting hung up on the word "pet".

When Castle is saying "Pet" here, he doesn't mean "creature that follows you around and does stuff", he means "a summoned entity".

Basically, what he's saying is "we don't want players to be able to increase the power usage rate of summoned entities". It doesn't matter what form that entity takes, be it a pony, a cloud, or an enchanted cucumber.

That is a position that I personally agree with, and fully support (at least when it's done with enhancements).

For me, the big question with this change has been if essentially giving "summoned entities" immunity to Recharge debuffs is a price worth paying for achieving this goal. It's definitely a downside, but as I've said before, I truly don't believe there are any entirely Good solutions at this point. The question then becomes if this proposed change is the "least bad" option (these options include "do nothing"), and I've come to believe that it is, especially since the devs have the *option* of making NPC-summoned entities exempt from this change if they believe it becomes necessary (by creating new versions of those pets).

It also helps that I believe that with the Recharge-inheriting out of the way, it's possible to improve some other oddities with pets and sets.


tl;dr;
I agree with the goal, and I'm ok with this change.

Oh hey, it's out in the open now...

I don't see you mentioning /popmenu though.

With /popmenu you can open up other top-level menus defined in the same file.
For instance, "/popmenu example" will open up the predefined menu "example" (at the current location of your mouse cursor).

This way you can make smaller specialized menus, and bind them to keys (/bind <key> popmenu <menu name&gt.
Really handy, especially if you assign hotkeys to the options and create "bind trees" (click a sequence of keys to rapidly gain access to a large number of options).

Just noticed...

The summary table shows the values for nonpositional Psi, not the relative composite values.

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For the cells with options (<power> On/Off, #target select), the actual selection button shows up in the cell to the right of the cell you are choosing an option for.

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Yeah, that was a problem in the original spreadsheet, and I put a buffer column into the sheet to prevent that from being a problem. Then I reintroduced the problem when I compacted the options selectors into multiple columns. What I think I'm going to do is move the "sandbox" column to column E, and then move the window pane lock to column E, so left-right scrolling will keep the sandbox at the left, and with it guarantee that the pulldowns whose controls are visible in that column (in this case, Health, Tough, and Shield Allies) are always visible. Its the quickest hack that I think will have the lowest probability of disrupting anything.

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Sounds like a good solution.
Having the sandbox there would be nice even if it didn't fix something else.

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It may or may not be worth noting the new level factor pulldown breaks Open Office.

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I'm sitting with a somewhat old version of OO at the moment (2.0.2), so I'm not sure if this is an issue with newer versions. But...

For the cells with options (<power> On/Off, #target select), the actual selection button shows up in the cell to the right of the cell you are choosing an option for.
For Health/Tough On/Off and Shield Allies #targets, this means that the selection button shows up in Column E.

However, Column E is also the first column with powerset info (Shields), so when I scroll right to look at other powersets, I can no longer get the selection buttons for Health/Tough On/Off and Shield Allies #targets. So, in order to change those options, I need to first scroll to the far left.
It's a bit annoying when you're looking at a powerset further to the right.

Do you also get this behavior on your version of OO?

I need a larger monitor...

Kheldian Nova forms are missing the 15% Resistance to Energy/Negative.

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I don't think I've ever seen a build with RttC's regen and tohit debuff at the ED softcap.

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I'm at 49.3% for ToHit debuff.
I might get a little bit closer after a respec, but I'm not sure if I'll ever reach 56%...

That's a very nice summary, but the "Change" column is a tad inconsistent.

For values that are reduced or stay the same, you are using Change = 1- new/old, i.e. by how much relative to the original cost an item is reduced in price (comparing difference to original cost).

For values that increase, you are (usually) using Change = new/old, i.e. how high the new cost is relative to the original cost (comparing new cost to original cost). (in one case you seem to use 1 + old/new)

That means that a value of 99.99% indicates a huge decrease in cost, while a value of 100.01% indicates a tiny increase in cost.

Maybe you should use the same method for both increases and decreases?

For instance, either
Going from 200,000 to 100,000 would be new/old - 1 = -50%, and going from 200,000 to 300,000 would be new/old - 1 = +50%
OR
Going from 200,000 to 100,000 would be new/old = 50%, and going from 200,000 to 300,000 would be new/old = 150%


Maybe also call them "Old Cost" and "New Cost" instead of "Cost" and "New"?


Regarding the changes...
The salvage changes are going to be annoying. Really annoying.

But yow, those are some huge reductions in rent/plot size. I smell base expansions....

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And since this can't be pleaded enough: Bring back the Tier 3 Inspirations, please!

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It is possible that this had something to do with the change to the door timers.
With the increased ToT rate, we would end up being swamped by Tier 3 insps.
(as a side-effect it'd probably also lead to more people leaving ToT spawns behind as they rush from door to door to optimize their drop rate)

Given the choice between Tier 3 insps and the much more enjoyable (to me personally at least) ToT rate this year, I'd go with the increased ToT rate.

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You can click doors 3 times faster this year, but, they could have compensated by making Tier 3 appear 33% of the time.

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That would seem reasonable.

It is of course possible that they felt that the previous drop rate was too high too, but if that's the case there's always the option of reducing the drop chance further, to 1/4, 1/5, or even less.

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And since this can't be pleaded enough: Bring back the Tier 3 Inspirations, please!

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It is possible that this had something to do with the change to the door timers.
With the increased ToT rate, we would end up being swamped by Tier 3 insps.
(as a side-effect it'd probably also lead to more people leaving ToT spawns behind as they rush from door to door to optimize their drop rate)

Given the choice between Tier 3 insps and the much more enjoyable (to me personally at least) ToT rate this year, I'd go with the increased ToT rate.

Thumbs up for the early start of the event.
Usually people know well in advance when an event is supposed to start, but in this case it came as a pleasant surprise, something I personally appreciated.

The Zombie invasion is amusing, and I find the pacing of the ToTing to be much more enjoyable this year (especially if on a team. ).

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Ok, thinking about it, make the day jobs exactly like the Super Group badges (separate window via a button in the badge window), not counting towards the badge totals, not displayed in your info window, etc with one exception: you could use it as a selectable title.

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If Day Jobs are shown in a separate window, do not count towards the badge totals, and are not called badges, do you feel they could be displayed in a separate tab in your info window?

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No, I agree with Positron before they put in the Veteran Reward badges: "There are too many tabs in the badge window already."

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As you say, he appears to be talking about tabs in the badge window.
I am asking about tabs in the info window.