SpiderTeo_OC

If you are just getting /Dark for Tar Patch, then I would suggest maybe getting a /Cold instead. Good all-around set with good debuffs and a few good team buffs as well.

To reply to Chrome_Family:

Here's an important detail to know about soft-capped defenses: it's not full-proof. There is still at least a one in twenty chance for you to get hit. And twenty chances is not a whole lot when you consider the number of mobs and the number of their attacks on big teams. And then you add in defense debuffs, and the each single hit just makes you more vulnerable to more hits, a "cascading failure" of defense. /SR is the only set that has significant Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR) to avoid cascading failure. Other positional defense sets, like Shields and the VEAT secondaries, also have some DDR but can still be susceptible to cascading failure for a short time.

The other thing to consider is that there are some mobs that have high Accuracy, To-Hit, or both. Rulaaru Watchers, Malta Gunslingers, and stacked-Vengeance Nemesis, and higher-level conning mobs can get a significant chance to hit through the soft-cap, and possibly even debuff that defense, which could lead to further problems. And let' not forget some of the mobs that have attacks with no positional tags!

The idea is that just one level of damage mitigation is not totally reliable. Experienced players know and understand this. Most toons are not going to hit the soft-cap in most cases, even after getting hit with both Cold Shields. And even if they do, a little extra help would still help. Frostworks is that little bit help. Especially those without soft-capped defenses, Frostworks can be a boon. Hell, I've had a Brute bother me for Frostworks as most Stoners beg for Speed Boost.

Again, the benefits of Frostworks cannot be seen just as a simple max HP boost. When you consider the effects of that max HP have on regen rate numbers, and the limitations of just a single level damage mitigation, Frostworks starts to look more and more attractive.


To Frosticus:
I have to agree with you there. The fact that this game can allow even radically different builds between ATs and even the same sets tends to lead to different playstyles and strengths and weaknesses. Some may be better than others, but there will always be some sort of compromise with whatever you get, given the limitless option available.

Just to clarify a few things here:

Snow Storm can still be useful in the late game, even though it might not be used as regularly as other powers. Sure, the slow effect is cool, but since it's a target toggle, I really only make use of it if there's a single tough mob, like an EB or AV, or even one of the stronger Bosses.

Snow Storm also has a -Fly component, which is useful for grounding most flying mobs. I used it against some flying CoT Air Casters that were clustered together and trying to attack me. I hit Snow Storm on one of them and they all dropped like rocks through the hole in the floor (of course, this was in a situation where there was no aggro management and I had to pull whatever tricks I had).

Secondly, there are a few mobs that can escape Sleet. Not many, but there are a few, like Warwolves and Slag Beasts, and they can't even be stopped by Snow Storm. In such cases, I just hope that I can blast faster than they can attack.

Whatever. You keep thinking in a vacuum concerning certain powers. And not every Tank/Brute/Scrapper has Dull Pain or Earth's Embrace. And look at your numbers; they don't lie. Room for improvement is just that. And even if you do have a Tank/Brute/Scrapper with perma-Dull Pain, that player would still appreciate Frostworks. Why? Dull Pain is used as a Heal rather than as a fire-and-forget HP buff; Dull Pain gets better returns if you use the Heal component for gameplay rather than just as a proactive pre-fight buff. Frostworks can raise the max HP during Dull Pain's downtime, increasing all associated stats with it.

To the OP: If you get Frostworks, get it late game. It's a low maintenance power which benefit most ATs, particularly the melee ones.

Some of it also depends on the primary. Short of Parry and Divine Avalanche, some primaries may allow different IO sets than what other primaries could, some without compromising as much.

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No one is going to take a burst hit above their base hp with Cold's Def shields in normal missions anyway unless they are deliberately trying to get themselves killed. For STF and RSF the only person getting hit like that is the tanker or brute and they will HP capped or already close to it by that point anyway.

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Again, there are a few misconceptions here.

Firstly, sure, no single hit is only to drop you from base HP, even with some defense from Cold's shields. However, that single hit is probably going to be accompanied by several others, which could cause a significant loss of HP in short amount of time, possibly even dropping a toon. Yes, this is what's called the alpha strike, and that can and will drop most toons except for the sturdiest bunch (like Brutes and Tanks). And sometimes, there is a secondary beta strike that can be dangerous but not as heavy as the alpha. That can happen to anyone, regardless of AT or TF/SF. Sure, Tankers and Brutes might expect to get hit like that, but unless that toon has excellent aggro management, a good amount of mob hate is going toward that Fire/Cold as soon as it starts throwing out its blasts.

In this classic "tanking" scenario, more HP over base would certainly be more of an asset. The extra HP will help take on an alpha or even beta strike regardless of toon. And it is even more so than Tanks and Brutes, who both may have the function of aggro management. If the tanking/aggro management toon can survive the first volley, the better they are for contributing to the team. Frostworks does exactly to increase survivability over Aid Other.

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What very little benefit it brings is negated by common IOs, armor powersets, and accolades at the only place it's even remotely needed, at the end game.

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Okay, I've actually done the research, and considerable +HP bonus are not that common, even with IO sets. Yes, with the accolades, you can get up to +20%, but that's still less than half of what's possible to max out (exception Stalkers, because they're not one of the cool kids). You can get +3% from IO sets, but only from Purple sets, so at best you can two of those bonuses. The next amount is at +2.25%, and even maxed out with five sets, would get +11.25%. That's sizeable, but unless you are a brute, most ATs would be building for +def or +recharge rather than +HP. Yes, the IO sets are optional, but if you are going out of your way to max up HP, most ATs get more out of IO min/maxing from getting bonuses other than +HP bonuses.

Outside of getting all the accolades, there are only a handful of powers that can personally buff max HP, and most of them belong to Brutes and Tankers, who can always use more HP to get to the cap. You can nickel and dime it with IO sets, but non-melee ATs get better returns for other bonuses, and melee ATs usually need far more HP to hit the cap. And with the VEATs, their max HP caps out at +125%! Even with the accolades, secondary powers, and IO bonuses, they can still appreciate additional max HP buffs.

And that's what makes Frostworks so great! Have other ATs IO out their build for some extra defense and recharge, some more damage and status resists. The builds that want to get more max HP will still be a ways from hitting their cap. So soft-cap off their def with your Cold shields, and show them the creamy filling with a big chunk of extra max +HP!

Now in most games, just getting more HP just means more HP to be knocked off before dropping, but in the CoX game, additional HP is not considered within a vacuum. It has been said before that more max HP also means better numbers for the same regen rate. You can't ignore that even passive regen can definitely help with an additional level of survivability.

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Still, so long as we are going to discuss it, we might as well say how we feel about it.

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Well, if that's the case, then nerf Parry/Divine Avalanche and give Cobra Strike some more love.

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especially since the +regen of the Regen Tissue and Numina procs is increased by the +heal enhancement in the power itself

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Say wha? This is actually true? I saw that Mids was adjusting the proc numbers on my Claws/Regen but I thought it was an error, and went into the database to make the Uniques unenhanceable. I thought all procs were static bonuses...

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Yeah, I can verify that. I calculated the assumed numbers on paper and then compared them to my scrapper's numbers in-game. From what I understand, this is not intentional, but rather a consequence of how the game engine works.

Since you mostly play scrappers, the best way to look at your widow is as a variant of a Claws/SR build. However, even then there are many options that can help branch you out from there. One of the things that I forgot on my Widow build is to consider defense debuff resists. I think that's in Foresight so don't neglect that on your defense-heavy villain.

Offhand, I would say work on building up defense and then +recharge. +Recharge will help a Widow build both offensively (attacks recharge faster) and defensively (as for going toward the perma-Mind Link strategy), provided you can still manage endurance well enough.

If you decide to get Cobra Strike, then also get Eagle's Claw. Cobra Strike is almost worthless at the higher levels unless you can stack it with Eagle's Claw.

For the benefit of the OP, Regen is still a great set despite being more high-maintenance compared to Willpower or Super Reflexes. Of all the sets, I think it has the easiest ride through the lower levels. On the end-game, high-end challenges at level 40+, it's still a great and reliable scrapper for pretty much anything out there.

Now, some people have said that regen lags behind other sets because of IOs and certain other challenges. Most of that is hype. Oh yes, Regen doesn't get as much of a return in benefits from IO sets as other secondaries do, but that doesn't mean you are going to suck [censored] either. I was able to take a MA/Regen scrapper (arguably the weakest primary) through the RWZ Challenge and solo a Rikti Pylon, so don't think that Regen will fall too far behind other sets while you are having fun in the game.

However, some of the naysayers of Regen are correct because of the need to specialize a build for very particular goals, such as AV hunting. Some people like to make very specialized builds, which require picking certain powers, sets, and forsaking certain QoL powers (like travel powers) in order to min/max for the task at hand. In this case, other sets might be more attractive than Regen, unless you are ready to pair up Regen with one of the Broadsword or Katana.

But in general, Regen is good as any other set out there. As long as you are having fun with it, then that's the right set for you.

W'sup guys! I guess I missed the beginning of this conversation. Okay, here's my take on Frostworks. As much as I like Turbo_Ski, I do have to disagree with her assessment of Frostworks. Here's an old copy of my analysis of the use of Frostworks with fellow Villain ATs. It's a little number heavy, but not as bad as DPS chain calculations:

Okay, first up, Frostworks buffs a teammate's HP by an amount equal to a percentage of the corruptor's base HP. That means different ATs will get a different percentage of the buff based on the ratio between a corruptor's base HP and that particular AT's base HP. Unslotted Frostworks gives about +44% of the corruptor's base HP. This is buffable will Healing enhancements, according to the Schedule A category. For the purposes of these calculations, I will use just the base +44% buff amount.

Next, rather than use actual numbers, I'm using percentages of the AT's base HPs. This puts into perspective the relative amount of "bufferage" a particular AT gets from Frostworks; 400 hp might be a nice small buff for a L50 Brute, but it's overkill for Stalkers.

Okay, here are the relative HP caps for the Villain ATs:

Corruptors: +50%
Dominators: +58%
Masterminds: +100%
Brutes: +114%
Stalkers: +33%
VEATS: +125%

Corrs, Doms, MMs, and Stalkers all have the same numerical HP Cap, but because they have different base HPs, some ATs can benefit "more" than others from HP Buffs.

Now, I will show the percentage of a AT's base HP that Frostworks buffs on equal levels for caster and target. Though it does +44% for Corruptors, it differs from AT to AT.

Corruptors: +44%
Dominators: +46%
Masterminds: +59%
Brutes: +31%
Stalkers: +39%
VEATS: +44%


From these numbers, Stalkers cap out with just one application of Frostworks. Corruptors and Dominators almost cap out with just one application (and exceeds the cap if those ATs get the +HP Accolades). Masterminds, even with Accolades, still has a little more to hit the cap (slotting up Frostworks for Healing probably would cap it). Brutes and VEATs don't come close to the caps. Even fully slotting for Heal, Frostworks could only cover +60% of the possible +114% Max HP for Brutes and +80% of the possible +125% Max HP for VEATs.

Considering that +20% Max HP can be obtained from Accolades and a small percentage of Max HP can be obtained from various IO sets, Frostworks can still be nice for most Villain ATs.

For a IO'ed and Accolade-badged stalker, Frostworks isn't going to matter much, if at all. No use getting this power if you team up exclusively with experienced Stalkers.

For Corruptors, Dominators, and Masterminds, just one Heal slot could allow you to hit the HP caps. It's a nice buff whose power doesn't need more than a slot or two.

For Brutes and VEATs, Frostworks can definitely be buffed to the ED cap to get max results. If you team up with Brutes and VEATs on a regular basis, then they will love you if you devote a few more slots to Frostworks, though you can still get by with just a couple or three.

So based on these calculations, most Villain ATs can still get a decent boost from Frostworks. Only Stalkers and the most IO'ed Level 50 builds would barely notice a difference. It only takes a few slots to get the most cost-effective results, unlike some toggle buffs. And, for the n00bs out there, it will not cover up costumes like the other two Cold shields will.

If you team up with many Brutes and VEATs, they would appreciate the extra HPs themselves.


REGEN & FROSTWORKS
It has always been common knowledge, particularly among melee AT players, that more HP increases the number of HP regenerated per second without actually changing the rate itself. For Brutes and VEATs, this is strong consideration for builds and survival. Brutes already have big HP and can get much more; giving them more HP effectively buffs their regen rates by hard numbers rather than by rates, which adds on another small level of damage mitigation.

For VEATs, though their base HP may not be high, their caps are equal to the Scrapper cap, meaning that they can definitely use more HP Buffs even after Accolades, powers and IO set bonuses. And when you consider that VEATs have a higher base regen rates, they too can benefit with a better return from Frostworks compared to other Villain ATs.

This is just another consideration that shows Brutes and VEATs get better returns from Frostworks than other Villain ATs, though most ATs will still receive a nice buff.


COMPARING FROSTWORKS WITH AID OTHER:
Frostworks is a pro-active, pre-fight buff, much like the other Cold Shields. This works well with /Cold since you buff up in the beginning, then blast or debuff during the fight. This power seems to be more in line with how a Corruptor, and specifically the Cold Domination set, operates. Plus, Frostworks works tremendously better for taking alpha and beta strikes than heals could.

Aid Other is a reactionary, pool power heal. Yes, it is interruptible, but a skilled player can minimize that risk. It would need to be used in the middle of a fight, taking time away from a /Cold corruptor's chance to blast or debuff.

Aid Other may still be a pretty decent power for what it does. However, it is a healing power, and though it ignores whatever kind of damage is delivered, it is still under the limitations that most "healer" builds and powers have. Plus, healing is more common than +HP buffs. If a team wants a healer, it might go with a thermal or pain domination as a secondary instead.

Either power can allow a team member to take probably another hit or two before dropping. Aid Other, however, can be spammed multiple times within the same fight to mitigate additional incoming damage. But, if you are spamming Aid Other just to keep the team alive, then there is probably something wrong with the team's strategy or toon builds that is making the fight difficult; Frostwork won't necessarily improve survivability for such a team either, unless it had some /WP brutes in it.

Aid Other could still be a viable power for some corruptor builds, but a /Cold corruptor seems to lose out more given the nature of its secondary. Hey, if you can use both powers within the same team, then more power to ya. But I would just rather stick with Frostworks on a /Cold corruptor and leave the healing to someone else. I don't want to have to keep spamming Aid Other when I should be Benumbing, Infridigating, Sleeting, Heat Losing, or blasting throughout the fight. I'd rather shield up and FW my team and then let lose with debuffs, blasts, and eventually scourges. The +HP buff is still more attractive to me than another simple heal, even after AT HP caps are considered.

Aid Other isn't a better power than Frostworks, though Aid Other would be better suited for a healer build.

And as a Fire/Cold, you are not a healer, you are either bringin da' fiery pain, or buff/debuffing for the team.

Also as a Fire/Cold, you will draw aggro if you go on the offensive. Your secondary will help, but not 100%. That means you might not last long if your teammates don't help you in some way. And with that much aggro, you will most likely be interrupted when activating Aid Other.

There's nothing wrong with taking the Fighting pool. Tough and Weave are great powers for any toon, but the drawback is the investment of powers, which might not be possible on tight builds.

With that said, your build looks solid. It does have a bit more survivability than my own build. When you consider that Fire Blast is an aggro magnet, and that Cold is great for team buffs and debuffs, there is little in the way of direct damage mitigation. The extra resists in Tough and the +def in Weave bring you to respectable levels.

Assault and Maneuvers are not bad powers, though you are giving up some survivability for a more team friendly build. In any case, once you are done with the basics, most builds will likely be giving up something in order to get better values in something else.

For question one, any secondary can work well for Martial Arts. The only real factor in choosing a secondary is knowing how to use it.

For question two, yes, Martial Arts is very good for PvE. To agree with Werner above, Martial Arts may arguably be the weakest of the Scrapper primaries, meaning that there is no one single trait that distinguishes it above other sets, but hell, it's still fun and very viable. I know there are some MA players who can complete the RWZ Challenge, solo Pylons, and solo AVs.

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This is just a question that has been fiddling at my mind, and I'm to suckie at math to compute it

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Post it on the Scrapper forums. Everyone goes to them for number crunching.

I did some research on using Frostwork on various ATs, and even though Widows have less base HP than Scrapper, they both have the same numerical cap; while Scrappers can get up to 80% over base HP, Widows can more than double theirs.

If you can manage to get some mad Max HP buffs on your Widow, then you can get them comparable to Scrapper HP, but you would still have to work harder at it than a Scrapper needs to.

Yeah, you miss two letters and your whole message can get borked. Me is dum.

I haven't gotten my /shield Scrapper to those levels yet, so what I'm saying is mostly speculation based on the math.

Phalanx Fighting would give about 5%+ defense, and possibly significantly higher with your buddies near you. That would give you at least 52% def, possibly higher. Assuming even-conned mobs and that you got about 39% Defense debuff Resist from your other powers, your tank could take one or two hits of debuffs before your defenses sink below the soft-cap if you take Phalanx Fighting (possibly more considering how Phalanx Fighting could fluctuate around teammates). If you take Grant Cover, even with about a total of 56% Defense debuff resists, one hit will still drop you below the soft-cap, but not by much. However, Grant Cover will stall the cascading failure better than Phalanx Fighting once you drop below soft-cap in any case.

Now this is just the math and within a vacuum. Keep in might that Grant Cover gives some other benefits other than just the DDR. I would assume that you got your teams to be buffing you in some way, so if you can get a single buff that is equal to or greater than the defense given by Phalanx Fighting, then you might not need Phalanx Fighting, granting more potential benefits to the team as a whole. Of course, if you got more def%, then you might not need as much DDR in the first place...

The only other reason to get Phalanx Fighting over Grant Cover is because it's an auto power and not a toggle, so it is less strain on Endurance Management (though it is a small strain compared to other toggles, of course).

Hmm, I personally would go for both but put priority on Phalanx Fighting, but only because I'm thinking as a Scrapper. As a Tanker, though, you might be thinking more team-oriented, so getting Grant Cover with its associated benefits would be better for you and the role you play.

Hmm, interesting results. I'll try testing that later on a couple toons myself to see if I can produce similar results.

Every now and then, I see that my defenses get buffed by the enemy on a regular basis. I was just reviewing Arcanaville's defense post, but it doesn't say anything specifically about about defense that gets debuffed to the point where it is in negative values.

By the advanced formula, the math would suggest that enough defense debuffs could translate to effective "To Hit buffs" (mathematically speaking). So is this true in practice, or does it simply render defense as 0% (though also rendering any additional defense buffs ineffective until it can actually overcome the debuffs themselves) with no net To Hit "bonus?"

I remember back in the day before even the Invention System (I don't recall exactly when) of a discussion with trying to replace TK with something else, specifically Boxing and Air Superiority. I actually did some calculations where Boxing and Thunder Kick were very similar to each other, with Thunder Kick being better in DPS and Boxing in burst (or the other way around, I'm not sure). This allowed some builds to save a power in order to get Tough/Weave into the build, as Chaos_String has suggested.

Since then, MA has had a few changes as well as the Invention System implemented. Medium to high recharge bonuses are now very possible in builds, making Thunder Kick evidently superior to Boxing in all but the slowest recharge builds (where the differences might be more theoretical than practical, but TK still also has MA's inherent +Acc). Boxing, then, has just been used to open up the Fighting pool or to hold IO sets.

I don't think there is anything wrong with taking Boxing over Thunder Kick if you are looking at the build overall, though as Chaos_Theory stated, you might be sacrificing your damage rate in exchange for something else. But for max DPS/DPA/DPT/etc, there are very few compromises in terms of power choices.

For max DPS, I use a variant of this attack chain which I got from Werner:

Stom Kick -> Crane Kick -> Storm Kick -> Crippling Ax Kick

Now this is a HIGH RECHARGE chain. A lower recharge chain would use Thunder Kick as a filler for gaps.

You can replace CAK with EC for about 5% less DPS, assuming similar recharge.

Now I remember that Boxing could be interchangeable with Thunder Kick, but TK is still slightly better than Boxing (I think TK has better burst while Boxing might have equal or even better DPS at a certain range of recharge, but higher recharge puts TK ahead).

In the end, you will need at least Storm Kick and 2 of the three big hitters (Crane, CAK, and Eagle's Claw) if you want to max out the DPS on your Scrapper. I get by with Storm, Crane, and EC, and I managed to take down a pylon (though it was close to an hour doing so).



But that's just for DPS; MA is pretty damage heavy enough that you won't have to worry much about DPS unless you are dealing with at least Bosses (and even some of them might not last long enough to matter) and higher. You can still incorporate Air Superiority and/or Boxing if you want more of a "punchy" concept. Air Superiority can replace CAK since it has almost the same soft-control in it, so it could be worthwhile for damage mitigation.

I like Infatum's idea of using Brawl. I actually have Brawl 4-slotted (for set bonuses primarily) with also a KD proc. I put that on auto and I am still amazed at how many times I juggle mobs with just that alone. I image damage procs would do the same as well.



Another idea is to roll up a MA/SD, if you are flexible on not having to keep /SR. That combo will significantly have higher damage output and better DPS to help compensate for choosing "lesser" attack powers.

I stand corrected, by Telperion and UberGuy. I concede that I do lack the experience of having a Widow leveled to have Foresight on its build. I have verified it by reading the power description in a number of sources.

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And now you say the resists don't exist at all, another mindless speculation? I just confirmed earlier that widows resists -do- scale, which was further confirmed other posters. If you continue to argue this then log on for yourself and see.

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Dude, if you wanted to make a post about scaling resists, then make a post about scaling resists, not about bane/widow comparisons. As for speculations, I would indeed say that your search-fu is weak, as well as learning-by experience. If a newb like me can find the information on my own after being corrected, then you should surely be able to find the information on your own after playing 50 levels of it, as well as after testing the numbers on your own. If all that information, you should be able to find it on your own. The above accusations have demonstrated a lack of knowledge despite your first-hand experience. My lack of knowledge is largely due to a lack of experience.

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claws/fire for concept - orange/red talsorian claws, all of your fire toggles plus the fire aura from the costune editer, put a pumpkin head on it and you will look awesome ;-)

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Dude, I'm stealing this idea for my next toon!

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Never found this [psi attacks] to be a big problem on my Spines/Regen Scrapper.

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I MAINTAIN, *I* never found it to be a big problem.

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[censored]... but you're mutha'[censored]' Wavicle!