City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Snow Globe

Forum Cartel

  • Posts

    6298

  • Joined

  1. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SerialBeggar View Post
    Looks good.

    Now animate it.
    Not on your life. Or rather, you'll have to pay me $30/hour to do so.
  2. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tyger42 View Post
    Yes, but the buyer knows he's got no guarantees there. Thus, it is perfectly clear what he is buying. Random chance. Or, if you prefer, gamble. But not the illegal kind. So to say that the buyer is being "misled" or that Paragon isn't being clear on what they're selling is a desperate reach.
    As long as you can't say how many points the Elemental Order costume set costs, my statement that it isn't clear how much the costume actually costs remains valid.
  3. Snow Globe
    I fixed placement of the one terminal and added rough guide.
  4. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tyger42 View Post
    That's a really pathetically desperate reach and you damn well know it.
    Bull. It could be as little as 4 packs or it could be as many as 100 packs. No one knows, not even the designers.

    Edit:
    You have a 10% chance per common card to get either the Belt or Sleeves first. For the second part of those two, you have a 11.11% for any future common card to get the other part.

    You have a 13% chance per uncommon card (one per pack in at least 50% of the packs) to get the head detail, jacket, or gloves first. For the second part of those three, you have a 14.94% for any future uncommon card to get the second part. For the third part, you have a 17.97% for any future uncommon card to get the last part.

    You have a 12% chance per rare card (one per pack in at least 50% of the packs, but not every pack as some don't contain a rare) to get the helmet, pants, or boots first. For the second part of those three, you have a 13.64% for any future rare card to get the second part. For the third part, you have a 15.79% for any future rare card to get the last part.

    You have a 14.11% chance per very rare card (one per pack in at least 50% of the packs, but not every pack as some don't contain a very rare) to get the shoulder, back detail, or gun first. For the second part of those three, you have a 16.43% for any future very rare card to get the second part. For the third part, you have a 19.67% for any future very rare card to get the last part.
  5. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell View Post
    The packs are clearly priced. 80pp (or less!) each, for five cards, including at least one which is at least rare. Seems pretty clear to me. You don't have to like it, but it's hardly ambiguous or deceitful.
    It is ambiguous if I get the ATO(s), Catalyst(s), Costume parts, or even the Vanity Pet I would want or not. It is ambiguous how much stuff I can't use I'd get from the packs as well.

    If the costume parts were a bundle costing X points, that wouldn't be ambiguous.

    If the ATOs sets were a bundle costing X points, that wouldn't be ambiguous.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell View Post
    "Freeloaders"... wow.
    And I see no reason not to call them that. They are not paying for a subscription, and conversely subscribers are paying more for not only the subscriber's access, but the premium and free players access as well. That is one point I do fully agree with Arcanaville on.
  6. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
    None of that contradicts the fact that your narrative is impossible on its face. In fact, most of that are things that came up in conversations with Zwillinger face to face, and more importantly many of those things are things that were discussed as foundational elements of the Freedom hybrid model within days of its announcement.

    Their motivations to make the Super Packs is obvious: its in effect a consumable that contains lots of different things to ensure there is likely something for everyone, or at least the widest possible group of people. Its also obviously true that they thought that up *before* they had any idea whether people would independently buy things like team inspirations because they were a part of the Super Pack concept from the start. This means your narrative of the devs deciding to add those small consumables into the Superpacks to allow them to effectively charge more for the costume elements within them cannot be true because it defies the timeline of design.
    And that is a timeline I don't have access to.
  7. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mousedroid View Post
    To turn a profit?

    To pay salaries?

    To keep the game afloat?

    To keep the shareholders happy?

    All of the above?
    To extract more money beyond VIP subscribers were paying from their VIPs to pay for the freeloader's bandwidth use.
  8. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bru_Tal View Post
    And as someone else said, the sheer amount of Black Wold pets scurrying around Virtue is evidence enough that the majority are not affected by the cries of "predatory" (I think thats what it was just changed to now) It seems the masses are louder than just some voices here...
    Actually I called them predatory shortly after they were announced.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    I'll add that the Super Pack is a great way to disrespect your customer base and treat them in a predatory fashion. The only group that benefits from the random packs are the seller because it preys on the same types of addiction that gambling addicts and completionists fall victim to.
  9. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mousedroid View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mousedroid View Post
    By the way, does anyone know if the ATOs can be converted when the converters come out? I'm not a big fan of Tanks or MM, so I'd like to know whether I will be able to convert those ATOs into Scrapper, Brute or Dominator ATOs later on.
    Anyone know the answer to this question?
    The answer is, yes, you can convert them after Issue 22 goes live.
  10. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
    That's one way to look at it, but that's not the only possible explanation for their motives. One strong refutation of this cause and effect theory of the super pack's contents is that the super packs were previewed back in May of 2011 during the focus group associated with City of Heroes Freedom, and consumables were already slated for them. So its not possible that Paragon could have followed the line of thinking you're ascribing to them. Given that you believe this to be the most likely logical scenario, and it doesn't appear to be possible, in what way does that revise your thinking?
    I'm taking Zwillinger at his word:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
    In order for a Hybrid business model to be sustainable you need to have a consistent flow of income. Now this is largely represented by converting free or premium players to a monthly subscription, which we are doing quite well. But by opening the proverbial floodgates to anyone and everyone with an internet connection and a PC that can handle it (which is a lot of folks these days) we've also incurred a large amount of additional operational cost that we didn't have when only supporting limited free trials and our loyal subscribers. Don't get me wrong, the benefits of having a free option are huge, both for your business and, more importantly, for your Community, but they do not come without a cost.

    Parts of this additional operational cost can be offset by the release of items like Power Sets or Costume bundles or other similar marquee items. These are great and exciting items for us to make and for the Community to anticipate, but they're a one time investment and as such only serve as a short injection of resources. To keep up with these additional costs in the long run we have to introduce sustainable consumable items. Here lies the challenge with City of Heroes...

    When we've told you that we're going to be testing the waters with many different offerings, including things like Rare IO's, Dual Inspirations, Enhancement Unslotters, etc, etc there is a reason for this. City of Heroes is not an easy game to devise consumable items for. Because we've made things like Inspirations drop like...well...candy, because there's such a negligible death penalty, because everyone has easy access to travel powers...the list goes on. Things that work well for other games (like a Rez power or traditional "potions") will not work for us. Our challenge is to design a consumable item that is not only affordable and fun, but also offers items that are appealing and desirable by our players.

    Additional reliable regular revenue enables us to make bigger, cooler awesome things like revamped zones, great new content, new Enemy Groups, new Power Sets, new Archetypes, new costume sets and more in a sustainable long term way. And it enables us to do it at the current rate of production that we've been working at (once a week releases AND supporting awesome Issue releases). Super Packs being successful means more for City of Heroes Freedom, more of everything. More content, more developers, more artists, more community team (), more producers and as a result, more people coming to check out all of this amazing kick *** stuff which results in more people for you to play with.
    Their motives behind the packs seems clear to me...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
    To me, the most serious grey area thing they sell is Experienced and that is debatable as to whether it crosses the line from QoL to pay to win. But nothing else the store sells affects in-game performance quantitatively more than that. And the Super Packs are not the first instance of the devs selling experience boosters.
    ATOs directly affect powers and auto-level with the character. They are more powerful than almost anything else in the game, and Synapse has said on today's UStream that the future packs will have newer ATOs with different/better advantages.
  11. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell View Post
    How is this transaction not clear?
    It is not clear how much the costume set will actually cost a player. Even Synapse couldn't say and he helped to make the system.

    While the weights of the percentages are shown, there is no way to say if the Elemental Order Gloves (to take a random costume item) costs 60 points or 300 points. Likewise, how much is that one ATO you want? 80 points? 400 points? 1,440 points? More? There is no way to tell at the moment. However with Issue 22 at least the ATO problem is solved: 55 Astrals + 25 million Inf once per 4 days or 100 reward merits + Inf (can't remember exact figure atm) once per 4 days.

    So, the packs are not clearly priced, unlike other items on the Paragon Market.
  12. Snow Globe

    MoKeyes

    POST-ACTION

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by U_S_C_I View Post
    I've been on those Friday night runs with Atomic, too, and there always seems to be at least one idiot that sneaks in every week that either destroys one of the computers (to kill Love's a Challenge) or decides that they have enough status protection to withstand the green beam (and kills the Avoids the Green Stuff).

    It's getting pretty old.
    In a way, I'm glad that Triumph isn't alone in dealing with this type of problem.
  13. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Radiac View Post
    Some people who play CCGs (both online and otherwise) feel as if they're only winning if they can make more money off of it than the owners of the stores that they play those games at, and feel like they're getting "ripped off" of the store proprietor buys cards for one price and sells them for another. Well, that's how those stores make money, and if the stores lose money, they close, and if they close, I don't have any place to play my CCG games at anymore, so I don't want that to happen. So I don't steal from them. I don't complain that they're "ripping me off" in card trades.
    I've no problem with this scenario, and have done this many times in the past with M:tG cards. The transaction was clear for both sides, and so I didn't once feel cheated. Unlike these super packs.
  14. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
    That's true, but the question isn't whether any one person finds the value high enough, but rather if the value is high enough in general to be reasonable. Is it always wrong for the developers to release something that a particular player finds insufficiently valuable for the effort or price?
    If they know that players will pay for Item A, but not Item B, and they do not provide a way to directly purchase Item A, then yes they are wrong. They are also selling items for real money that players can then use to make inf.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
    You're describing Paragon Studios as being "morally bankrupt" for releasing the Super Packs which implies you believe no reasonable person could believe the value within them is reasonable for their price.
    Okay, how about "Predatory" instead? They are trying to sell consumables that were not selling and using items they know people want (ATOs and Costumes) and will buy if sold separately.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
    Because if the developers thought it was reasonable, it couldn't possibly be morally bankrupt for them to sell them. So either they have to believe their value isn't worth it but is doing it anyway, or they do believe its worth it but their belief is so unreasonable as to be blatantly incompetent.
    If they believed the value of the consumables matched the players, then the consumables would be set at a more appropriate price instead of trying to bribe players to use them by including them in these packs. So while they believe a specific consumable is worth X, the demand hasn't matched that value. So they are trying to bribe players into buying the consumables by offering items that players do want. Worse, most of the items are enhancers that boost stats. They've stepped over the line of "pay to win". They've also opened the door to influence selling.
  15. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Goatrider View Post
    I can't make a new character. I only get two character slots and they both have lvl 50s. If I can use ATOs why can't I redeem something I paid for...for ATOs?

    And yes you're right I can use reward merits for enhancements. I can make like 50 enhancements and sell them to NPCs because I already have HOs and +3 SOs.

    It just doesn't make sense...at all.
    As much as I'm on the developer's case for these garbage packs, with Issue 22 you will be able to buy ATOs with reward merits. You will also be able to use converters (able to be purchased with reward merits) to have a chance to convert the ATO to one that you can use.
  16. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Here is a Google Spreadsheet with the packs with and without the account unlocks:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AsjJWPcObbMwdFE5aktoZGJtU3FNZ0RtVHJyQmZ1Z nc (friendly link)
    For those interested, I've updated this spreadsheet with extra columns showing what would happen to the tables if you got a single account item. Not every possibility is accounted for (like getting the wolf pet before another very rare costume piece), but should be "good enough" considering the weighting.
  17. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SerialBeggar View Post
    Can you include a brief outline of where to go for each phase?
    In what way?

    The problem is that you are either outside or inside going to all the buildings in most of the phases. For instance in phase 3 you'll likely need to go into all 3 buildings at least once, and likely one of them a fourth time.
  18. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Equation View Post
    I bought 24 of these, and in there I got.

    1 full costume set by my 7th, which is cheaper than the normal bundles.
    By the way: 1,440/24 = 60 Points. 7 x 60 Points = 420 points. Normal bundles = 400 points. Difference? 20 Points more in the super packs if you are focused on the costumes.
  19. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Winterminal View Post
    Except that's only from the perspective of someone who only wants the Elemental Order costume. The fact is that when you buy a super pack, you are getting more than the costume parts. You may not necessarily want those other things, but they are there just the same. The value of those other items has to factor into the equation.
    If the item has zero value to me, then it doesn't matter what value the company assigns the items that I don't want. I'm still not getting value from them.

    To repeat myself:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    I don't consider a large portion of what is in the packs as a "prize". I consider it "stuff I will not use", and therefore unneeded clutter.

    They are worth more to you or the developers than a dollar, but a lot of us disagree.

    Worth buying in my opinion:
    • ATOs
    • Catalysts
    • Costume Parts
    On the fence about:
    • Black Wolf
    Not worth buying in my opinion:
    • Reward Merits (I do Task Forces/trials far more than regular missions. I have plenty of these.)
    • Inspirations of any type (yet to use a single one from the Paragon Rewards Program.)
    • Enhancement Boosters (yet to use a single one from the Paragon Rewards Program.)
    • Enhancement Unslotters (yet to use a single one from the Paragon Rewards Program)
    • Windfalls (okay, I've actually used a couple of these from my Paragon Rewards.)
    • Prestige Boosters (don't even get me started about these.)
    • Revive temp power (I carry wakies.)
    • Restore temp power (Day Jobs and I tend to play healers...)
    • Experienced temp powers. (I already get 20 per character, and that is enough to last me from 1-50.)

    Which wastes my time getting rid of the junk.

    The problem is that me not getting what I like is a huge negative to me. That means I lose value for every item I get that I don't like. They don't have any merit to them in my perspective, so I lose money. Money that I would normally use to buy a costume set or a power set. The same goes for the Paragon Rewards Tokens, which I use for the VIP costume sets.
    As you can see, I've already addressed the value of the stuff I didn't want.

    Now if they had a pack of just costume pieces and other vanity items, I'd know that I'd get new costume parts or vanity items. If they had a pack of just ATOs, I'd know I'd get a random ATO. In either case, I'm not getting consumables that I simply do not want.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Winterminal View Post
    I totally see what you are saying. I got pissed off as a kid when I would spend $40 on playing card packs and only end up with one rare that I actually wanted or intended to use. In my mind, I had just paid $40 for that one piece of cardboard because that was the only one of any value to me, but I still received a bunch of other cards with it that, whether I liked it or not, contributed in worth to the overall cost.
    Except in this case I'm literally getting nothing, not even a piece of cardboard. For instance, the unslotters I already have aren't being used, the other consumables are just useless electrons filling up my character items. Worse, I get a notification (despite turning the warning off) every time I log in that I have new items waiting for me.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Winterminal View Post
    It is for that very reason that I will not buy the packs. I dislike it, but I have accepted it, and I hope that it does not become something they do too often.
    Sadly, Beastyle, Zwillinger, and Synapse all pretty much said that this is the first of many of these packs. At a guess, they are resource committed at this point to pushing out these packs.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Winterminal View Post
    To reiterate: I totally agree with your perspective and your frustration, I am just trying to politely point out the flaw in your logic.
    There comes a point where no matter how much the seller values something, that the customer says that isn't worth anything. For instance I didn't value the transformation powers, so I didn't buy them. However, I did buy several costume bundles.

    I can see the value in the costume pieces. I can see the value in the ATOs and catalysts. I can't see any value in the consumable items so I assign those to be a value of "nothing". Actually I place their value at less than nothing as it costs me time to deal with what I consider junk.

    Edit:
    I'll also point out that the person I was responding to said this:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slazenger View Post
    1$ for a super pack maybe all someone could afford so it fit's nicely for those that can't afford 400pp's on costume bundles
    That person was focusing on the costumes. $1 for a random chance of some costume items, or $5 for a "regular" costume set. At that point focusing solely on the costumes is appropriate.
  20. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Draztc View Post
    May want to alter the color of the buildings slightly. On the runs I have been on the usual instruction is Red for Main building, Blue for TPN Today, and White for Visicorp. Maybe everyone has different methods of calling out the next map door, I don't know.
    I'm going by the color of the signs.

    Edit:
    And this is the very first I've heard them being called "red", "white", or "blue". Then again, I'm Canadian, and wouldn't go there.
  21. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA View Post
    But I do not and will not support these being a random-pick-only offering. Therefore, I will not support this by spending a thing on it. If enough people do what I'm doing, the Devs will know doing this was a mistake. If enough people do what you did, the Devs will know it wasn't.
    I have not bought a single pack.
  22. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slazenger View Post
    Well I'm looking at the shop now, and all the costume bundle's and none go for more than 400pp's, so maybe you need to check your math out.
    No, I don't. The Elemental Order, by nature of the super packs, can cost 800 points or more.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Additionally, it is likely that a full costume set (edit: of the Elemental Order) will cost at least double the 400 points, so you fail at math too.
    It cost one player 33 packs to get the full set.

    24 packs: 1,440 Points
    +9 packs: 720 Points

    2,160 points approximately.

    On beta, it took me 13 packs to get the set.

    12 Packs: 840 points.
    +1 Pack: 80 points.

    920 points, or over double any other costume bundle.

    All the OTHER sets go for 400 points... The Elemental Order set, if that is all you want isn't a bargain by buying the packs. Far from it.
  23. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JakHammer View Post
    If you had only guaranteed the full Costume set would drop in the first 12 packs opened, and made sure that the Discounted 12 Pack Bundle was Prominently featured, this thread wold be a lot shorter. Along that line can Anyone say, or has Anyone said that they FAILED to get the full set in 12 packs or less?
    On Beta, it took to the 13th pack to finish the Elemental Order set. Also the following post:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pagan Priest View Post
    Seeing a lot of people here say they've compiled the Elemental Order set easily within 20 packs. I had to open 32, or was it 33 (roughly 2,000 points worth)! Anyway, this is exactly why I won't support this type of practice in the future. I went against my better judgement because I wanted the set and I wanted to see for myself how many packs it might take me. So for anyone who thinks it's as simple as buying the 24-pack, think again.
  24. Snow Globe
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slazenger View Post
    I hear the word morally bankrupt being bashed about, I wonder where those people were when things like the unslotters and boosters, extra enhancement trays were presented on the store for sale. Some people cannot afford to purchase these sort of things in bundles, but I never heard the term morally bankrupt when they were brought out.
    Those are direct purchases that the purchaser knows exactly what they are getting.

    The packs are a bundle that a buyer may or may not get what they are wanting. They also contain a wide range of items that appeal to players do want with stuff they have shown not to want.

    Completely different.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slazenger View Post
    1$ for a super pack maybe all someone could afford so it fit's nicely for those that can't afford 400pp's on costume bundles or any of the above mentioned, yet they are classed as morally bankrupt for spending their 1$ on a chance of getting most of the above, I'm sorry but people need to take a good long look at themselves when it comes to these packs.
    The company, not the players buying the packs are being classed as morally bankrupt. Get your facts in order. Additionally, it is likely that a full costume set (edit: of the Elemental Order) will cost at least double the 400 points, so you fail at math too.
  25. Snow Globe
    You're right. I'll adjust it.