Smurch

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You're level 6. Turn off sprint.


[/ QUOTE ]

But... But... I like to run fast!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're level 6 - that ain't happening whether you have Sprint on or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually had someone give me that reply as to why they were running sprint at level 5. I was malf'ing down to help them level and they kept stopping to rest because they ran out endurance.

[/ QUOTE ]
This game got perceptibly easier for me when I got in the habit, on most characters, of binding my side mouse button to "powexecname Sprint" and thumbing it as soon as combat begins. Once the fight begins, even most tankers don't need to run more than a couple of steps at a time. Thumb it back on when the fight is over. That one step cut in half how often I had to rest between fights, without making it any harder for me to keep up with my team.

[/ QUOTE ]

My take away from this is the idea to bind travel powers to the side mouse buttons. That's a pretty good idea. I think I'll try that.

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people say the phrase, "Designed from the ground up to be PvP" but they never explain what that means.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a design philosophy. When we create Combat System X, we're designing it around fighting other players. If we already have Combat System Y designed around PVE and decide to just open it up to PVP, then there are going to be problems because the system is being shoehorned to do something outside of what it was designed to do.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like the difference between adapting an existing system to PvP and building such a system from the ground up is purely the number of whiny posts on the forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, maybe I'll just take a swipe at you for no good reason sometime.

[ QUOTE ]
What would be the difference between what we have now and a system that was designed ground up for PvP? Would some ATs not exist? Would it be twitch based? Would there be mezz resistance or protection? Is Loot necessary?

[/ QUOTE ]

Beats me, I'm not a game designer. I don't NEED to be a game designer to see that the system isn't working. I also don't NEED to be the one to figure out how to fix it. You asked me what I'd do if I were in charge. I'd scrap PVP and start over, because the existing system doesn't work. Now maybe that's not the only approach or even the best approach, I don't know. But I do know that the system as it stands isn't very enticing.

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, WAR or WOW. What would you take from our(old or new) PvP to add to theirs; what would would you take from them to add to ours?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd take the FUN from War's and add it to our unfun.
I never played WOW and never will, so I can't comment on that.

As for anything more specific, I'm not a game designer as I said. Anything I said at this point about cherry picking features to try and create a mish-mash game would probably be completely wrongheaded because I readily admit that I don't know how to program a PVP game system or what it should or should not contain. However, I AM able to easily and quickly discern how much FUN I am having when playing any given system and can see if my fellow players are also having fun or not by if they stick around through a 4 hour keep battle (for example) or leave after 2 minutes in Siren's Call.

Considering that PVP has consistently failed to entice any significant number of it's player base into playing it, regardless of rewards, I don't really see how an argument can be made that the PVP is well-conceived or executed. Obviously the 80% rule should apply here as well as in other aspects of the game, shouldn't it? An MMO shouldn't design a system around a tiny subset of its other players?

People don't PVP in this game because the PVP isn't fun. That's the bottom line. Until they fix that, however it needs to be done, that won't change (and maybe not even then, since PVP already has such a bad rep amongst most of the players).

[ QUOTE ]
I liked the good old days, when 'high level' meant you stopped seeing the old guys forever. None of this "level 53 council and CoT forever" bullchunks. There weren't any easy fights any more. If you got to 50, you got there fighting in the big leagues.

... I'm alone in this, aren't I?

On topic, there have been a few tweaks upward to just about every badguy group. CoT got nervas, Council replaced 5th, Rikti got gunswords... the Malta Group has finally gotten equipment upgrades. Bring them, say I.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like seeing the same enemy groups, but I also enjoy the high levels of that group being suitably challenging. I like the "upgrades".

[ QUOTE ]
Back before I13, one of the complaints on the boards was in fact that PvP was too fast. Everybody except Tankers was getting 1-3 shot.

Obviously, some people liked the speed, and others did not. For now, it seems the did nots have one.

It seems apparent to me that a lot of the changes in I13 were aimed at making PvP battles longer.

Did that help the situation in your particular case?

In any case, if you were in charge, what would be the next step?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already posted on this, but to sum up my previous points, I think I-13 changes were a small step in the right direction, but I think that PVP is still rather poorly implemented.

Personally, I'd give up on trying to make PVE and PVP even be the same system in this game (since it obviously doesn't work) and rebuild PVP from scratch with a system that's designed, from the ground up, to be PVP, rather than trying to tack PVP onto a system that was designed around PVE (and is actually very well implemented for PVE).

The best PVP games out there were designed with PVP in mind. This game was designed with PVE in mind and tried to slap PVP on, and as a result it's been slipshod since the beginning.

Maybe they'll surprise me and continue to tweak PVP to get it so that it's fun for new players and experienced players alike. It's just not there yet and I have my doubts that it ever will be.

My current plan is just to wait for Global Agenda to be released and play Exteel in the interim (since it's free).

Going to jump on the "depends" bandwagon.

For Masterminds, I love big groups of foes. Ruthless (CL 4) is my chosen difficulty. I want huge battles, not my gang beating the snot out of one guy who just doesn't have the smarts to stay down.

For aoe characters, gotta go with more baddies again.

For single target killers, like stalkers and some brutes, I'd prefer the tougher but fewer approach of Relentless (CL 5).

There are exceptions, but thats it in general.

Some times it's all about quantity, others quality.

[ QUOTE ]
True PvP'ers step into a PvP zone, it goes "WHAM!DEAD" and they go "Hmmmm, why did that happen? Wow, PvP in this game is sure fast and 3D! Perhaps more movement? Perhaps I should send a tell to one of those guys after I zone out. Maybe hit some websites for some guides?"


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a PVP junkie in other games, from the tactical RVR of WAR to the twitch-fast high-speed deathmatch PVP of Exteel. I don't know if that makes me a "true PVPer" with a "true PVP mindset" in your definition, but PVP in this game just left me feeling frustrated.

Now, it's not that I never won or anything, because I did. I organized a pretty big Independence Day Smackdown in Bloodybay on Protector several years back, and lead a full team of Villains to victory against a full team of defending heroes. We fought our way as far into the hero base as we could without getting droned. (and were disappointed we couldn't actually capture it)

But by and large, the PVP in this game SUCKED. It was gimmicky, it left little room for trying new things, it was very much who gets their uber attack chain off first and then it was over. Battles were TOO SHORT to be fun. It was over, win or lose, before I really got a chance to enjoy the fight. And if you do lose, it takes too long to get back into the battle in anything but an arena battle which makes the PVP zones worthless.

And that's boring.

And it's not that PVP in this game sure is "fast and 3D!", Exteel (another NC Soft title) is one of the twitchiest fast paced 3D PVP games out there, and it's about 1000x more fun than CoX PVP.

Now, I'm not an "achiever" mindset, I'm not out for badges, or XP, or drops... I'm the type of player who wants challenges. But fun challenges. Spending all that time working on a build, reading guides, figuring out PVP for a battle that lasts for 5-10 seconds just simply isn't worth the effort on my part.

I'm looking very forward to Jumpgate Evolution and Global Agenda for my new PVP games. Unless CoX really figures out a way to make their PVP as fun as other PVP games on the market, I think I'll continue to just ignore it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You're level 6. Turn off sprint.


[/ QUOTE ]

But... But... I like to run fast!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're level 6 - that ain't happening whether you have Sprint on or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually had someone give me that reply as to why they were running sprint at level 5. I was malf'ing down to help them level and they kept stopping to rest because they ran out endurance.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As soon as someone joins a team I am on and insists on (()) all the time, I always magically DC.

[/ QUOTE ]

((That seems like a very silly reason to DC, does it work on the forums too?))

[/ QUOTE ]

((oooh... good question. Only one way to find out))

[ QUOTE ]

You're level 6. Turn off sprint.


[/ QUOTE ]

But... But... I like to run fast!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tyromancy - ( )
Divination or magic using cheese

[/ QUOTE ]

I predict that "Tyromancer" will be taken on every server by the end of today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Battlecry: Behold the Power of Cheese!

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer..

"RELEASE THE CHEESE!"

[ QUOTE ]

Jack Bauer is a God!!~


Sorry couldn't help it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Jack Bauer
by the great Luke Ski

Jack: The following takes place between track one, and track three.
(SFX: clock beeping intro)

Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.

Espionage in the L.A. scenes,
Where most time the ends, they justify the means.
And ever since late 2001,
You'll see real time flies when you're under the gun.
Counter Terrorist Unit agent Jack Bauer,
Often needs a shave and probably a shower.

Buchanan's the Director of field operations,
Almeida is tactical, Michelle's communications,
Edgar's an egghead, and Chloe is snarky,
and Morris is British and full of melarchy.
But I might be wrong, cause they always change stations,
Due to sudden promotions or exterminations.
But aided by their digital clockin' stanza,
They're building up tension when commercials do pass.
Never before has right-wing propganda
Disguised as entertainment kicked so much [censored]!

Come on!

Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.

Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.

Henchman: You can't do this to me! It's illegal!
Jack: Oh, you'd be surprised what kinds of torture my government has legalized. Let's turn on the 13 hour marathon of American Idol auditions!
Henchman: No! Stop! You can't do this! Ahhh! Ahhh! No, it's horrible!
Jack: TELL ME! TELL ME WHERE HE IS NOW! TALK, DAMMIT!
Henchman: Okay! Okay! I'll talk! I'll talk!…

Top of the hour at the CTU,
And Chloe and the crew ain't got much to do,
When some Scientologist sleeper cel leader
Hacks into their system with a message to read.

Surrender, America! Make me Arch-Duke
Or I'll blow you all up with my suitcase nuke
Full of nerve gas and virus that turns you six colors
And also you must pay me one billion dollars!

Suddenly Jack manifests in a blink.
Guy 1: I thought you were dead?
Jack: That's what I wanted you to think.
And despite his past insubordinate behavior
They reinstate him like a federal savior.
They give him some choppers and tanks and humvees,
And a cell phone that detects W.M.D.s,
A main frame computer the size of your basement,
And a Ford F150 just for product placement.

While Jack sets off for some interrogation,
The President's appraised of the situation.
His advisors are all corporate schills, that's for certain,
Like some Army commander named Hal A. Burton
Who insists that to soothe America's own rage
Is to bomb other countries back to the stone age.
But President Palmer ignores those demands.
Because he knows,
Palmer: That's were all states stand.

So while those guys try to remove him from office
We find out the new CTU techie novice
Is really a mole there to knock them off kilter,
Who commits sabotage, and removes their spam filter.
But when he's discovered he kidnaps Jack's daughter
Who's as easy to nab as a cold glass of water.

If you want her alive you must grant me immunity,
And extradite me to my home community!
Do as I say or she will be dead! Aaaah!
(SFX: Smack! Thud!)
...Jack-boot to the head!

Jack: Now tell me the info to stop your attack,
And maybe you'll live with your nuts in tact.
Spills the beans, then Jack and the Marines,
Stop the bad guys and their domestic weapon machines.
Like a ninja, Jack splits, down the road he'll hitch hike.
The only thing that could defeat him is a writer's strike!
Oh no!

Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.

Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.

(SFX: CTU phone rings twice)
Chloe: Obrien.
Jack: Chloe, it's Jack. I need you to upload new dialogue to my PDA stat.
Chloe: I'm sorry Jack, we don't have a script yet.
Jack: Dammit, Chloe, what am I supposed to say now?
Chloe: I don't know. Why don't you say 'dammit' a few more times?
Jack: Dammit, that isn't going to be good enough!
Chloe: Well you use it in every other line of dialogue. That, and 'son of a [censored]'.
Jack: Son of a [censored]!
Chloe: Told 'ja.
Jack: How am I supposed to keep America safe from Communists and hippies and the concept of tolerance if I don't have any tough-guy things to say?
Chloe: Hold on, I'll see if I can steal some dialogue from the internet.
Jack: Thanks Chloe, what would I do without you?
Chloe: Probably get killed about twice an hour.
Jack: What?
Chloe: *sigh*, nothing Jack.

Chloe Obrien. She's always lyin'
To cover Jack's tracks when he's not complyin'.
Always pryin' with uber leet spyin',
And she does it all while rolling her eyes and sighin'.

Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.

He's Jack Bauer, got skills to spare.
Other secret agent types will never compare.
Forget Jack Ryan, he's not much of a reader.
Don't need an Alias, cause he got La Femme Nikita.
He gave Jason Bourne his Burn Notice, it's true,
And told Prisoner Number Six,
"Be seeing you".

Unlike MacGuyver, his tech's not absurd.
And he left James Bond both shaken and stirred.
You say 'Austin Powers', and he'll just say 'NOT!'
And he makes Maxwell Smart look like Michael Scott.

The CSI cops are now outlined in chalk,
And Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger, now uses a walker.
So if you fear some bad guys who are pissed about our wars,
And you think that extremists are all hiding in your drawers,
Convinced that you'll fall victim to a terrorist attack,
Well then click your box to Fox because you don't know Jack!

Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.
Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.

Jack: What happen?
Chloe: Somebody set up us the bomb.
Jack: Dammit!
Chloe: We get signal.
Jack: What?
Chloe: Main screen turn on.
Jack: It's you!
Bad Guy: How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us. You are on the way to destruction.
Jack: What you say?!
Bad Guy: You have no chance to survive make your time. Ha Ha Ha Ha....
Chloe: Jack!
Jack: Son of a [censored]!

Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.
Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.
(Music cuts out)
Jack Bauer. He got the power.
Minute by minute, and hour after hour.
He's hard corps, gonna stop the war.
And he ain't gonna quit until he hits 24.
(SFX: End of episode clock sound)

*gets popcorn*

Man you can't make this stuff up.

[ QUOTE ]
Rachel?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am guessing that's CobaltConstable's name, since she signs all her posts: -Rachel-

I could be wrong tho. But that's a pretty big hint.

[ QUOTE ]
Considering the gap between good builds and not so good builds has gotten wider with i13, I'd say the chances of them actually achieving victory are slimmer than ever if they were new. Battles might last longer, but the actual chance for victory has gone down. It just means they die slower.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, before new players had no chance of victory because they left in frustration before they could work out the gimmicks. Dying slower means you have time to figure out why you're not winning. Not hitting often enough? You need more +ACC. Getting hurt to easily? More +Health. I'm simplifying but there's room for an analytical process now where before the "WHAM: DEAD" system didn't really allow for.

[ QUOTE ]
Combine that with powers working considerably different than how they do in PvE (mez resist for example) and it isn't uncommon to see players get frustrated with things being so different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well there I will agree with you. Again, I think PVP is inherently flawed. However I still believe that eliminating the gimmicky play, especially movement based powers, was a step in the right direction. It was, by no means, a panacea.

Again, I don't think anything but a complete re-engineering of PVP from the ground up will save PVP in this game. It seems destined, at best, to remain a sideshow to the main PVE game.

I don't mind this game being a PVE game, I have other games I can go to for PVP. What I don't like is the kludgy tack on that PVP always has been. I think they should fix PVP, and do it right, or just admit it was a mistake and get rid of it all together.

However, given the choice of I-12 PVP vs I-13, I've got to say I13 is the lesser evil.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't wait to stand proudly under the Atlas statue as a licensed hero as my zombie minions gather flies around me.

Their bloated rotting bodies dancing jollily as I command my undead meat puppets to amuse me.

Then I shall be thanked by citizens as I stop purse snatchers and shakedowns with their dead Papa's assistance. They will welcome me and my army of flesh hungry diseased maggot farms.

The glories of Paragon where the ends truly justify the means!

[/ QUOTE ]

You are obviously a necromancer, trying to revive a dead topic like this. Unfortunately the stench of troll is overpowering even that of your zombies!

[/ QUOTE ]I do practice necromancy as it is a fine and noble art. I take offense at being called a troll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh-huh. I see wut yoo did thar.

Looks like Rachel couldn't resist and bit hard on the bait anyways.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't wait to stand proudly under the Atlas statue as a licensed hero as my zombie minions gather flies around me.

Their bloated rotting bodies dancing jollily as I command my undead meat puppets to amuse me.

Then I shall be thanked by citizens as I stop purse snatchers and shakedowns with their dead Papa's assistance. They will welcome me and my army of flesh hungry diseased maggot farms.

The glories of Paragon where the ends truly justify the means!

[/ QUOTE ]

You are obviously a necromancer, trying to revive a dead topic like this. Unfortunately the stench of troll is overpowering even that of your zombies!

[ QUOTE ]
One thing is for sure, the learning curve for PvP in this game was definitely higher than others. Figuring out how things worked and how to contribute vs PvE was considerably different. However, with the way they altered powers in addition to other changes in i13, it feels like they took a step in the opposite direction in making it more accessable.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. A new player to PVP might actually have a chance to fight back now in PVP where before I saw people go down before even realizing what happened. People have that happen to them more than a couple of times, they will leave the zone and not come back.

I'm no stranger to PVP, and I can say pre-I13 PVP in this game was hopeless which is why only a small insular subset of the community engaged in it at all.

There needs to be a better learning curve for PVP, something that lets players learn by doing without it being frustrating and discouraging. Other games generally manage this for the most part. NCSoft has even managed it themselves before. But CoV simply does not have it.

I think they're better off re-building PVP from the ground up. These tweaks and patches to an inherently poor design may get rid of some of the bumps, but do nothing to address the design beneath.

[ QUOTE ]
If we have a system that can pretty much mimic(and exceed) most dev created content in terms of storytelling and easily accessible missions, what's the real incentive for players to NOT use it all the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because while it CAN does that, most of the time it does NOT. The number of really lousy story arcs vastly exceeds the number of well crafted ones.

[ QUOTE ]

MA simultaneously showcases the potential of COX while at the same time exposing its relatively shallow mission system. No matter how great a story you weave into an MA arc...your limitations are still the same as the content we've gotten so far. You can't really create new and interesting aspects of gameplay.

[/ QUOTE ]

...yet.

[ QUOTE ]
While I'm not anti-MA, I'm still not convinced it was the shot in the arm this game needed. It's a nice tool and funish toy...but it truthfully does not expand the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's completely revitalized my interest in the game. I'm sure I'm not alone.

[ QUOTE ]
In the same manner that Day Jobs feels like an unfinished implementation(what we should have is a full secret identity skill system)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's been hinted at. However, the day jobs offering a means of offline character progression in the interim is, well, nice. It's not amazing or game defining... but it's nice. And wouldn't you rather have that UNTIL we get a secret identity system than not? Wouldn't you? I would.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that will get them to stay is being able to play their first few times without getting pwned. Defeated is fine, but pwned by definition means someone is basically trying to drive them away.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very much true. Every time this conversation comes around, I use my own start as an example.

Never been in PvP before. Had the game maybe a month. I walk into Siren's Call the first time, looking around. Wow, a new zone. Okay, I have twenty seconds now before PvP starts. Hey, I wonder what this contact-like guy over here is.

Timer reaches 0.
TP Foe'd out of the base.
Stunned.
Placated.
Assassin Strike.
Trash talked.
Dead and insulted 35 seconds after entering the zone for the first time, with no way to respond or even be aware of what happened. I didn't even look at PvP again for months, and it took multiple friends begging me to even step foot near it again.

If you want new people to get involved in PvP, it has to actually be vaguely fun. Not just a handful of ultra-skilled veterans curbstomping 99% of the rest of the population. No reward is going to counteract it not being fun. It'll just make the people who don't have fun moan and complain about how they're forced to PvP to keep up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, those people aren't "ultra-skilled" as you put it. They just learned a quick gimmick that works well on those new to PvP. Once you learn a few standard PvP tricks of your own, things like TP foe aren't that big of a deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

But generally still not a whole heck of alot of fun.

And really most people never stuck around long enough to learn the "gimmicks". They just got frustrated and left, which is a sign of a badly designed system.

PVP in this game is weak, has always been weak. There needs to be a good way for players to jump into PVP easily, and make it fun.

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this game design philosophy is that the amount of reward necessary to do this tends to be huge: it has to be equal to the normal level of PvE rewards available *plus* an additional bonus to compensate for people's innate dislike for the activity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah it might be better to, oh I don't know, make it FUN.
When PVP is well implemented (a new player can jump right in, and after a brief learning curve, actually feel like they can contribute in a positive way, while still giving an edge to experienced players) then you don't need to entice people quite so strongly. The problem with PVP in this game is that it's been tacked on as an afterthought since the beginning, so no real effort has gone into making it fun.

I do think the I-13 changes were a small step in the right direction by making it somewhat more accessible for new players, but it is by no means well implemented yet.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Might I take this moment to point out Dungeons & Dragons? Good/Evil-Lawful/Chaotic. A system invented years before computer games were sophisticated enough to include those kinds of scales.

[/ QUOTE ]

And a system that, sadly, they did away with in the latest iteration of the game.
Now you can only be lawful good,good, neutral, evil or chaotic evil...

[/ QUOTE ]Fixed. If you're going to rage about the alignment system, actually read it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it's not neutral anymore. It's Unaligned. Which is not necessarily the same thing (and makes alot more sense).

[ QUOTE ]
The alignment changes is pretty much universally hated by long time DnD players, as it was rather stupid and pointless. My point is that while it's totally idiotic, you can just do a handwave and keep the original 9 alignments.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean the nine ill-defined alignments that no one could really ever agree on exactly what they meant (and still can't to this day)?

Frankly the alignment grid was a neat innovation some 30 years ago, but really it's outgrown it's usefulness.

I've been playing D&D since the red box and I'm glad they finally simplified the system so there aren't hours long arguements if, for example, something was actually Lawful or not (the typical "If the king says you have to kill peasants and you don't then you're not being lawful!" stuipidity).

The new system is a clear consistent dualistic slider. While simple, it is sure alot easier to figure out where someone falls.

[ QUOTE ]

Secondly, Alignment changes were never too common in pen and paper RPGs, they did happen but not all that much, except for the two star wars RPGs which relied on a dark side points system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alignment, no, but there are games with a type of "moral compass" mechanic, like Unknown Armies' madness meters, where extreme actions have psychological consequences (rarely good ones).

[ QUOTE ]
Last thought... CoH in setting and the feel of the major NPCs always seemed a lot more like DC then Marvel to me... DC doesn't have nearly as much sideswapping as Marvel does.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very much a matter of opinion, because I distinctly have the opposite impression. I consider CoX to be somewhat close to Marvel than to DC in tone.

[[ QUOTE ]
]Sure you got Hal Jordan becoming Paralax, or Hawk going crazy... you get the occasional conversion but Marvel deals a lot moe with moral relativism where DC usually only tackles that during special events, and tries to keep a grander, cleaner and more mythological image. Not to say it isn't there, and you've got heroes who the media turns against them (Supergirl) just like in Marvel... but the lines are more clear cut I've found. You got you're Supermans and Batmans and you've got your Jokers, Darksieds and Lex Luthors.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that CoX didn't have as much of this because simply the mechanics wouldn't allow it...

...but even still you have some rather morally questionable heroes like Infernal and Lady Grey. Malaise was originally a villain. In one story arc for Peter Themari, you turn a young heroine (Pyriss) into a villain (who meets a nasty end later on). Then you've got the Doctor Aeon/Professor Echo switcheroo (however that works). There is a CoT mage, Akaris , who turns good. Sigil sold her soul to a demon.

There's alot of moral grey area already established in the game.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if it's the source material that made it inevitable or the player's perception of what a superhero MMO should be, but side swapping was inevitable even if the moral compass wasn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

This I agree with. In response to the OP, I've seen enough from the devs about how they wanted to handle side swapping for some time now (and they said it was on their "wish list" since the beginning) so I do not believe SW:OR had anything whatsoever to do with it.

[ QUOTE ]


Just to clarify something here though.

The line about 'defeat'. Very rarely does it mean anything other than defeat. Jack explicitly stated it was used to allow it to be determined by the mind of the player and that some heroes would be norm for them to kill, and other players would be abherant if they left a bruise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some CoV missions heavily imply killing. Things like "leave no witnesses" or "eliminate all witnesses" as a mission goal and "you left no one alive" during a mission complete.

CoH is much more nebulous, but yeah I think it's meant to be left to your imagination for the most part, except for named characters who continue to come back - they have plot immunity to death :-)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mwuahahahaa...

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!


Errr... wait... ohhhhhhhhhhhh newbies >.> right <.<; uhmm... *hides chainaxe*

As to the actual topic...

I've not noticed much honestly; but to be fair, I play AE almost entirely these days, and I solo, so I'm kind of away from most folks most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]



Oooo Chainaxe

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that an axe with a chainsaw blade or a chainsaw with lots of little axes for teeth?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is in fact the former.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4nzgPbHlNo...WEchainaxe.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_E8DPmyOKIG...0/Chainaxe.jpg