Smurch

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We need a healer.

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R U HLR?

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Anything/Force Fields Mastermind would probably be the most laid-back character you can build.

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This is true. I have a bots/ff MM and spend most of my time in fights doing emotes.

Dominators (and probably controllers) also are pace setting as someone mentioned. I've taken time after locking down a group to rest in the middle of combat with my Dom.

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Drive-by Foe Debuffs are kill stealing.

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They're not kill stealing, but I consider them rather rude.

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I don't know if this would apply here, but I remember when someone told me that Immo, stuns, and holds stack with each other. I.E. an Immo and Hold would make a mag 6 hold

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This one actually (in my experience at least) has a sliver of truth to it. I played a controller before Overpower was introduced and when I hit a boss with Mezmerize and Dominate back to back they would be affected by whichever I used second (the sleep seemed more reliable this way)

I don't, however, know if that was supposed to happen, or if there was a bug that was causing any mez to stack with any other mez.

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Mesmerize is a 3.5 mag sleep that will get a boss in a single aplication. The damage from Dominate will break the sleep if used afterwards

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Many bosses with resists to hold/immob have little or no resist to sleep. I can sleep Cimmeroran bosses and EBs all day long, but it takes stacking holds to lock them down.

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I honestly don't see how anyone could play Pirates of the Burning Sea, then call CoH PvP boring.

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I don't see how anyone can play L4D or Quake: Whatever and call CoH PVP challenging.

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I honestly don't see how anyone could play Pirates of the Burning Sea, then call CoH PvP boring. Ironically enough, PvP was the only thing even remotely interesting about Lineage II. That game was WAY to grindy for what it did.

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I played Pirates of the Burning Sea. I stayed 3 months until got bored - the PVE wasn't nearly good enough to carry it and the PVP was problematic and became increasingly so over time. The rumor is it's gotten alot better. I am considering giving it another try, especially with the avatar combat improvements. I really did enjoy the tactical aspects of battle, but I fear that some of the skill changes will have removed even that (when a level 25 Freetrader can out manuever a level 45 pirate and still win the battle on skill alone- you've got something there).


Lineage II. I enjoyed it up until after my first castle siege. PVP is the only point to Lineage II. It bills itself as a PVP game which is what drew me to it, but it has alot of baggage around it. I'll probably renew when/if the next expansion comes out.

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Or am just a much better judge of quality.

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No, I've read plenty of your posts to know you're willing to settle for a much lower level of quality than I ever would.

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aka, you were bad at PvP and are mad at those that are better. It's ok. You can admit it.

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Nope. I lost some, I won some, and I don't care if I win or lose. Hell Smurch got his first PVP kill in Bloody Bay at only level 18! Go Smurch!

I care if I have fun. Exteel, my deaths exceed my kills by 50%. When I first played Warhammer in beta, I said "I never had so much fun dying before". That said, I manage to keep a good flow of credits in Exteel from kills and in Warhammer, my Renown Rank is the same as my Character Rank. But that's besides the point.

Winning or losing isn't important to me. It's having fun playing. It's being challenged. I thrive on challenge in games. CoX PVP isn't challenging, it's BORING. And I do NOT go out of my way to be bored.

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Edit: what other PVP games HAVE you played? I'm curious.

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Let's see...

We'll start with pretty much every major and minor fighting game since the late 80's. Multi-player RTS from Warcraft through Starcraft up to Sins of a Solar Empire. FPS from DN3D, Quake, UT (and the metric ton of variations on it), CS (including a spot on a higher ranked league team in Vegas), TFC/TF2, L4D. MMO's from UO, EQ 1 and 2, DAoC, WoW, WAR, AA (lulz, AA), FF XI.

That's just off of the top of my head. How about you?

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I have trouble believing that you still think CoV PVP is actually good if all that is true.

Off the top of my head:
Wing Commander Armada, X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, DOOM, DOOM2, Warcraft 1 and 2, Age of Empires 1 and 2, Quake 1,2, Wars, MOO2, L4D, Might and Magic: Dark Messiah, Darkfall Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Warhammer Online, Exteel, Dungeon Runners, Lineage II, Guild Wars, Age of Conan, Rome: Total War, Medieval II: Total War, Heroes of Might and Magic (series I-V) and of course, CoX.

I am also a beta tester for Fallen Earth, but I can't discuss that in any detail.

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Or am just a much better judge of quality.

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No, I've read plenty of your posts to know you're willing to settle for a much lower level of quality than I ever would.

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I pkayed Exteel for a while..it got boring fast though due the lack of varierity an actual tactic/strategy :/

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So... you never visited the store and experimented with the nigh infinite variety of weapon loadouts, skill packages, and mech builds?

Because there's a very wide variety of tactics available. In fact, there are MORE tactical options in exteel than exist in CoX. ALOT more. Part of those means equipping yourself for those tactics before the fight, but since you can endlessly customize your mech before each battle that shouldn't be an issue.

Just the number of ways you can build your mech are almost as numerous as the COSTUMES in CoX, except they actually mean something. Thats not even counting weapons or skills.

And team tactics are absolutely required to win CTF or Team Deathmatches.

Yeah, if you just play the one PVE scenario available over and over I can see how it would get dull. It's a PVP game where tactics is EVERYTHING.

In fact, to say that there are no real tactics in Exteel suggests to me that either you never actually played it, you never PVPed with it, or that you just really sucked at it. That game is ALL tactics.

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Yeah, played plenty of games with good PvP. Still like(d) CoH PvP.

There goes that theory.

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No, it just means you have much lower standards.

Edit: what other PVP games HAVE you played? I'm curious.

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Hmmm. I see your point. So it was bad before, and changes had to have made it better. Got you.

I wish those who think the new PVP is better, or the old one was horribly broken, would not accept those things as facts on their own.

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I accept it as fact because I saw what it was like before and just said "lolpvp" because of how weak it was.

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It was not proven beyond any doubt that the old PVP was horribly broken.

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Unless, of course, you actually have played games with good PVP and know what it SHOULD be like. In which case you'll be all like "dude! this pvp is total crap!"

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I truely believe that those who do not PVP, get shell-shocked by PVP "game speed", when they finally decide to try it. You cannot compare PvP speed to PvE speed. They are two entirely different "gears".

I believe that most of those who complain about PVP fights being too short....or never ending at all.....simply don't know how to PVP well enough "yet", are caught off guard, do not have the tools they need in their build. This comes with time invested.

I further believe that those who do not PVP because its not "fun" for them....if forced to PVP for about 30+ hours, would in fact learn to survive long enough and kill more efficiently......and....learn.....enough....to.... *gasp*....actually begin to have fun. (When you don't know what you're doing and dieing on the regular, there is a pretty good chance you're gonna hate whatever it is you're doing, and be turned off by it.)

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No. Another NCSoft title, Exteel, is about 10x as fast as CoX PVP, and it's fun out of the gate. It doesn't require that you spend days/weeks/months learning how to play. You play one tutorial that lasts all of maybe 30 minutes and you're ready to jump right into your first deathmatch.

And the speed of that PVP makes CoX look like slow motion. The fact that there is no auto targeting, you actually have to aim for what you're shooting at? Yeah you're gonna build skills or you're gonna die fast.

But it's FUN from level 1 on up. And thats the difference: FUN NOW. Not "well you have to EARN the ability to have fun". Screw that. I have a job where I have to EARN things. I play games for entertainment. Exteel requires MAD SKILLZ of the kind that would probably make most PVPers in this game WEEP to truely excel at (it's free to play... try it!), but even if you don't excel, as long as you have an ounce of ability you will never feel like you can't compete at all. And if you like twitch PVP, you'll have fun. From the very first time you play. You won't need to invest days/weeks/months to start having fun. You can start having fun within 30 minutes of signing up!

This game, the PVP SUCKS and BLOWS at the same time and always has because it's obviously a lazily tacked on system where there was no thought or development behind it. At least they're developing for it now.

It needs to be fun out of the gate. Not fun maybe someday if you find the right build and spend days/weeks/months doing nothing but dying or chasing down foes with no satisfying or fun gameplay.

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This one, I simply do not "get". No one is an expert, or even competetive the first time they try something new. Patience would do them wonders.

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Funny that no other PVP game seems to share this issue.

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Those who PvP know what Im talking about....those who don't pvp, never will.

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I PVP all the time... in REAL PVP games where it takes actual skill to excel but is, in fact, actually fun to learn how to aquire those skills.

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So it's better to replace something broken with something stupid and broken?

Pre-13 PvP was far from perfect, but PvP 2.0 is two steps backward and sideways.

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Now hold on. I could have almost have agreed with your prev post - 4 sec sup on buffs may be much - BUT thats under the assumption that the rest, including DR, is a general improvement.

So I would say they replaced something broken with something thats better, but still broken.

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I'd say they replaced something broken with good ideas that have broken implementations and its clearly a work-in-progress.

I'm not giving up hope just yet.

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This is what I think when I feel optimistic. However, I don't think they actually know how to design for PVP, and think even if they do fix all the problems and make the awesomest PVP game ever that the lousy reputation for PVP this game has will prevent it from taking off in any big way.

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Everyone knows the PVP sucks, they just dont waste their time playing in the Zones for badges.

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If PVP didn't ALWAYS suck in this game, then any changes they make might be of a concern. But frankly since PVP sucked harder than an electrolux showroom since it was implemented it doesn't matter. I hope these changes are just the precursor to more changes to actually bring the PVP in line with what other PVP games do... like be fun and stuff. But I'm not holding my breath.

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And the 'hardcore' pvpers may be surprised to hear that this is probably the majorty's concensus, and thus, who the devs are listening to.

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This statement, combined with the utter lack of attention the devs paid to the people who bothered to work with the system and make it work for them, speak volumes to why we have the giant steaming pile of [censored] we have today.

Yes, let's listen to the lowest common denominator. Screw trying to keep up with Joneses, let's just drag them down to our level!

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It's called the 80% rule of business. You cannot appeal to 100% of your customers, so you aim for 80%. If you're not in that 80%, you're a niche market and odds are a product designed for mass appeal is simply not taking you into account. Sorry if that upsets you, or if you feel slighted, but businesses exist to make money and a game like this has to use the 80% rule if they want to stay afloat, even if a small portion of that other 20% leave in a huff.

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No sane business manager is going to implement a strategy that:

1. Has no guarantee of enticing that 80% in, and
2. Will likely drive away that remaining 20%.

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Actually I-12 PVPers are not the full 20%. PVPers are a small subset of that 20%.

And yes, if you have a scheme which may increase the retention of your 80% even if it alienates the 20% you're not really aiming for to begin with, then it's a worthwhile risk. It just didn't pan out quite as well as it should have.

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Yet that's exactly what happened. Where's the 80% this change was designed for? I sure don't see 'em in the zones or arena. Seems like a failure to me.

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No arguement here that PVP still needs some work. That wasn't my point. The point was that because you're not in that 80%, they aren't going to try to cater to you. As a business you have to decide who your customer base is (the 80%) and cater to them because you can survive with just them. You can't survive with just the 20%.

I think they also already shot themselves in the foot by implementing such a lousy PVP system to begin with that the reputation PVP has in this game is a very big obstacle. Even if they miraculously fix everything wrong with PVP somehow, I think the lingering public opinion of how bad it is will prevent any kind of large influx of players into PVP.

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FAST PVP HURTS MY EYES!!!! ZOMG MY EYES!!!!!!!!!

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No, it just sucks.

Another analogy if you will - hopefully more to your liking than billiards:
A quick MMA fight is what? Boooooooooring. Why? Because it's a definite sign of an imbalance. A balanced fight = longer fight = more entertaining fight.

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Ah you hit on the proper word there: entertaining.
My beef with PVP here was not that it was "fast" but that it wasn't entertaining. I spent more time traveling in the zone, either chasing someone or running back from the hospital, than actually fighting. When I would get a fight, one of us would be dead in like 2 seconds or the coward would run and the fight would never be over. It was tedious. There ARE fast paced, even twitch-based PVP games out there which are actually entertaining, but this wasn't one of them.

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If it were considered more fun now (in general) than before, why such a drop in population?

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Because those that liked crap dont like things that arent crap?

And whether you choose to believe it or not, the damage has been done. But of course you wouldnt because you say you liked it before. Though if you can for a min assume that it was bad, then you might understand how it pushed people away (with the issues Mac has said) and how hard it would be to get them to give PvP another chance.

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Pot, meet kettle.

Fact is, people that don't want to PvP... aren't going to PvP. No amount of incentives or tweaking will change that. You can try and add lots and lots of rewards, at which point people will feel pressured to PvP just to keep up - but that's not a good business model by any stretch of the imagination. Fact is, both on the boards and in the game, I've seen far less people with positive things to say about the changes than I've seen negative. Does that mean all the people who don't like it are wrong? I really doubt that.

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Actually if they ever fix PVP, I'll give it another shot. I've played it pre-I13 and post and it was a lackluster system then and it's a lackluster system now. PVP in this game was always treated as an afterthought and it shows, which is the same because there's some features of the PVP zones I really enjoyed in the past, like the hotzones in Siren's Call.

I am glad the devs are making adjustments to PVP. However, they still have a long way to go before I'd consider it worth my playtime.

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And the 'hardcore' pvpers may be surprised to hear that this is probably the majorty's concensus, and thus, who the devs are listening to.

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This statement, combined with the utter lack of attention the devs paid to the people who bothered to work with the system and make it work for them, speak volumes to why we have the giant steaming pile of [censored] we have today.

Yes, let's listen to the lowest common denominator. Screw trying to keep up with Joneses, let's just drag them down to our level!

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It's called the 80% rule of business. You cannot appeal to 100% of your customers, so you aim for 80%. If you're not in that 80%, you're a niche market and odds are a product designed for mass appeal is simply not taking you into account. Sorry if that upsets you, or if you feel slighted, but businesses exist to make money and a game like this has to use the 80% rule if they want to stay afloat, even if a small portion of that other 20% leave in a huff.

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I just had a strange thought about the Going Rogue expansion. Is it possible that some of the NPC Signature Characters could "go rogue" in the new Praetorian world? If so, which ones? What's your opinion?

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Actually there are two NEW side-switching Signature characters. "Maelstrom, a pistol-wielding hero gone rogue, and a Desdemona, a demon-summoning villain who has been redeemed."

Given that, I doubt they will be changing any of the existing signature characters.

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Lethal Damage = fail at higher levels, especially redside. My claws stalker sort of tapered off into uselessness in the 20s against Longbow.

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My claw/regen stalker is level 47 and can hunt AVs solo.

Not agreeing with the OP that it's the most powerful set, but it's far from useless at high levels.

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That problem pre-dates AE teams.

Not sure why everyone is suddenly under the impression that farming is new and only existed since the implementation of player mission. Get real, guys/gals.

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It's a question, I think, less of it having existed rather the fact that the sheer numbers of instances of this problem have in fact skyrocketed since the MA. It's the population explosion of clueless unskilled high level players that people are discussing now. No one is claiming they never existed prior. They just weren't epidemic before.

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Inokis I think your missed that forest while you were counting trees.

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This.

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If a tree falls on a mime in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound?

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It emits the waves that can be detected as sound, but like I've been saying. Until those are interpreted by whatever being can sense it, then it isn't defined as sound.

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So you keep saying. However, you are simply factually wrong. Continuing to say it won't make it any more correct.

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No I am not. You are misunderstanding or choosing not to, whichever the case is... Until something is observed to be defined it simply exists as data waiting to be defined values through observation. Until you know how to measure a particle you don't know its there, you don't know what to call it, therefore you don't know it exists even if it does.

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But once I do know it exists, it doesn't disappear just because I'm not looking at it.

And observation is NOT the same thing as perception. We can observe things without ever directly perceiving them. That doesn't mean they don't exist. That is why there is a spectrum of light we are incapable of seeing, that is why there are inaudible sounds. They don't stop being light and sound just because we cannot perceive them directly. And we can still observe them indirectly.

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If an entity is made of energy, it cannot touch the ground it cannot feel the air it cannot observe these things we 'feel'.

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You make alot of suppositions about the observational abilities of a hypothetical energy being that I do not think are a given.

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It is merely data to be measured and then defined. It is all subject to perception. There is no getting around it.

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No, nothing is subject to perception. In fact, perception is faulty and easily tricked. That is why almost no scientific observation relies solely on human perceptions to collect data.

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Wait......some players don't play very well? i had no idea! what should we do?

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Laugh at them, kick them while they are down, and then post about how much we hate newbies on the forums!

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Yes, because all bad players are newbies.

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And all defenders are healers.

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R U HLR?