Smiling_Joe
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Quote:Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Feldacarb. People complaining about Knockback on the PB need to search fu for the dev comments on that about three years ago when Khelds were changed before.
.....or, given the fact that pretty much everything Castle had to say about Kheldians back then has been purged, you could just come right out and say what you're referring to, specifically.
Because Castle had quite a bit to say three years ago.
Not that I particularly care about knockback, but you've piqued my curiosity, and search didn't turn anything up. -
Quote:Out of curiosity, what level in the 20's, and what level is your warshade?Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Tell us what you really think, D_K.
On topic, I ran through some missions with my 20something PB the other night and found that I enjoyed playing her.
This is something that never occurred when I was running Celmor to 50 when Khels were first introduced.
I look forward to getting her to perma-lightform and immortality. Which sucks in a way because I was really enjoying my new WS as well but I'm not as excited about getting him to 50 as I was before learning about the PB changes.
Edit: Hopefully the WS's greater damage output will keep me going on him. -
Quote:Nothing but sense in that. Although if he were to come in and say he needed more datamining, the LAST thing I'd expect is another deadline for him to make any changes. And in all fairness to the OP I was the one talking about Hawk not communicating.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
FUNNY!
I'd assume the data-mining isn't done.
/shrug
This is the general problem with giving a time frame. There's no way to know if the schedule, data-mining, animation time will push things further along. Also now that they are ALWAYS developing between issues things like animation and powers time are at a premium. It's not like the old days where there were no .5 issues. .5 issues have been having tremendous things in them now, so the time frame he stated is a bit unrealistic now that we are in the COH FREEdom-the-market-says-"FEEEEED ME, SYMOUR"-mode.
I would say it's best he not say anything or he makes it worse. If he comes in now and says we are not done with data-mining, but look for something come Issue 23, he's just setting himself up for failure.
As I stated GOING FORWARD they really shouldn't say anything until something is about to be on beta, or they will get punished for it by the players. Players don't like to hear "things got pushed back due to unforeseen circumstances (which is the REALITY with any kind of technical development processes). What they do like to hear is "on beta right now is .. ."
Everyone's mileage may vary.
He doesn't owe us a thing in that regard (least of all me), but I am surprised that there hasn't at least been some form of communication between he and Grey Pilgrim. -
Quote:The problem is twofold: first, he already gave a time frame. It was made clear in the I-21 beta that those changes were the beginning, and datamining between I-21 and I-21.5 would determnine the extent of the changes that would follow for I-21.5, with things like the formshift animations following in I-22.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
There's nothing wrong with saying "we are looking to buff this or that, or how the damage is on this may be adjusted".
The problem is giving TIME FRAMES. He should not have stated that it was coming with Issue 22, because then players hold them to unreasonable expectations.
EDIT: My other point is that if he has nothing to report what exactly are folks expecting him to say? In other words if no work was able to be done what is he going to tell folks publically or privately? "yeah nothing's been done yet, check back next week."
So one stated time frame came and went without comment from the community. It's not like changes were promised at some specified point in the future. The time when the follow-up changes were expected has passed. The second time mentioned has also passed, now. No one really expects an explanation. We suspect we already know.
Second, any changes he would make were conditional on the datamining. It's entirely possible - and I'm guessing very likely - that no more changes will be coming for a long while.
Our next step as a community hinge on what that datamining revealed. Feathers ain't cheap and the tar's getting cold. We need to know, already!
...yes, I have a weird sense of humor. Obviously there's no next step, and feathers are actually quite affordable.
My point, however, is that (since he already let the cat out of the bag with regard to further changes), Some folks - not me, for I'm far too cynical - had every reason to believe there would be more changes. What would people expect him to say? I suppose he could tell us that all the changes that will be made have been made, if that's the case. But it's really not just a lack of communication that has people disappointed.
I don't blame them for being disappointed.
And describing this thread with any word stronger than that is a bit of an exaggeration.
Although I suppose I could threaten to ragequit over it.
But I don't think anyone would believe me.
...there's that weird sense of humor again. -
Quote:::shrug::Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I'd rather the devs come in and comment when they have something to comment on.
Arbiter Hawk coming in and simply saying "the buffs are coming at a later date" would be pointlessly retarded, imo. Obviously the buffs got pushed back since there are no patch notes about buffs from the I22 patch notes. I don't need a dev to come in and tell me something I already know.
YMMV
EDIT: This thread also illustrates why the devs should NEVER give definitive time frames unless they are absolutely 100% sure that those time frames are about to be imminently met. Players will (unreasonably in my opinion) hold the devs feet to the fire when those time frames are not met . . . which explains why certain devs say nothing at all until stuff is about to be put on the beta server.
I think this thread's rather tame, actually, especially given some of the more venomous threads I've seen with regard to certain costume packs on the paragon market.
No one is demanding that Arbiter Hawk - or anyone on the dev team - come here and make any public posts. I expressed that I thought it was lame that he didn't at least keep a private line of communication open with someone who was IMHO his biggest ally among the players, but I did so in the context of consolation. As I said up thread, I'm done advocating anything one way or the other for Peacebringers; I likely burned my bridges in the I-21 beta anyway.
And keeping an open line of communication - public or private - is never retarded. Discussion over archetype improvements in gaming forums is like wet weather in the Amazon. Whether it's done publicly or privately, letting players know for sure what's going on - especially when the expectation has already been set - is a good way to keep that discussion at least semi-constructive.
Synapse apparently replied to one private message from a tanker player, and look how buoyed the tanker forums have been.
But there again, I'm not asking Hawk to do anything. -
Quote:Harsh is a matter of debate. I called Hawk's lack of action weak, but I wasn't referring to his lack of action on buffing Kheldians. I think you can get from the context what I specifically thought was weak.Originally Posted by New Dawn
Stuff like this about Arbiter Hawk for one I thought was harsh, as its what you said:
It's a bit harsh I thought.
He could respond - not to us (and certainly not to me), but at least to Pilgrim, who has been an outstanding advocate for his changes IMHO. And he doesn't even need to give some ridiculous public acknowledgement.
I had always assumed he at least communicated with reasonable people like Pilgrim via PM. By the existence of this thread, I guess not.
And that is weak. If that offends, then be offended by me and nobody else. Taking it out on the community as you suggest might be possible would also be... you guessed it.
And when I say someone's actions are weak, it doesn't mean I think they specifically are weak. I just think it's a weak decision.
And I'm aware that he plays his cards close to his chest (can we please come up with a different expression? Tired of that one). I'm sure he's still looking at Kheldians and even reading this thread. I'm through advocating for change; I'll just wait it out at this point.
I was just empathizing with someone whom I respect. (And don't you be taking that the wrong way, either! That's a statement about Grey Pilgrim and NO ONE ELSE. Geez. Interwebs r hard.)
And here I'm going to disagree. I have the numbers to prove that Warshades are STILL out-damaging Peacebringers by a margin of around 60% and wielding superior mezzing ability (while still maintaining comparable levels of survivability) and can empirically demonstrate that the power vaccum begins at level 26 and widens exponentially once the pets are taken into account.Quote:I hope they do WS and PB equally cos they are ballpark equal now.
Thus far you've brought nothing by way of actual evidence but your assurance that they're fine based on your personal impressions.
Which is, of course, your right. You're obviously happy with Kheldians as they are and I'm happy for you. Wouldn't dream of changing your mind.
But you saying that you can find no fault in them doesn't mean there's no fault to be found.
In the end, it's a far better thing to be New Dawn than Smiling Joe.
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Quote:Arbiter Hawk never listened to a word I said back when I was nice, so why should he start now? Nothing I said then mattered, and nothing I say now is going to matter.Originally Posted by New Dawn
People will have opinions, or issues, some people will oppose those opinions and despite it people will pursue an opinion to the ends of the earth. I do not find the whole thread harsh, just certain parts of some posts. I don't see Butane getting what he wants and I did not see PvPers getting what they want or even when they wanted it. If I was in anyway insinuating something derogatory to a dev or any member of team then I should suspect that my requests (which may not be the same as most of the player base from what datamining might determine, rather than forums) might end up at the back of the queue.
Buffs are icing because I am not jeopardized without them. Fun happens when you are free of certain things that bother you. Not a lot bothers me so any buffs would be icing.
Besides, it would be egotistical of me to think he or any developer was anything less than professional. Development schedules are based on professional decisions, not anything I or anyone else said that may or may not have been particularly cutting. -
Quote:I like New Dawn. Just marches to a different drum as us is all.Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Ignore New Dawn... Known troll on the Kheldian board.
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Quote:Oh, and has this thread been particularly venomous? Last time I checked I was allowed to have an opinion that disagrees with the developers.Originally Posted by New Dawn
Given whats been said in some of these posts I'd be amazed if changes aren't pushed back.
I suppose we could all read things differently and view whats appropriate differently.
But I won't blame the Devs if they do push things back.
Any buffs is pretty much icing to me.
And I do have reasons for it that I can back up. You, on the other hand seem to prefer to believe what you want.
I can respect that and agree to disagree. -
Quote:I've been hard on Arbiter Hawk. I didn't like his approach to Kheldians, and frankly I don't like his approach to Stalkers. But that's a whole different ball of wax. I've long gotten over my disagreement with him over Kheldians. They are what they are.Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I really, really wish Arbiter Hawk would talk more. Synapse has been great the last two issues, at least acknowledging ideas and saying things might have to wait, etc., and adjusting his plans to feedback. Arbiter Hawk has been quite nice in the PMs I've had with him, but his quietness on the subject is hurting more than helping. I know he doesn't want people hoping for too much or misreading things (as I know I have in the past), but it would be nice to know we're not forgotten.
I would say that's asking for a lot with most requests, but Kheldians have been so neglected it would be nice. And we've been at least close enough to changes that some info would be nice (whereas PVP, bases, and AE haven't been close to anything for a long time, so leaving them to sit isn't going to make that big of a difference).
I have to admit, however, that I'm just a little pissed at him on your behalf. You totally had his back when people like me were making angry posts in GREAT BIG FONT SIZES and in general causing a ruckus back in the I-21 VIP beta.
Hell, you even managed to calm ME down. But to do so you had to assure us all that there was a promise of future attention. And you had good reason to do so.
Would it be so difficult for him to give some words of encouragement? Just a single post saying "we're happy with where Kheldians are at the moment" would at least let us leaven our expectations.
Now where is he? That's just weak. -
Quote:Not it at all, really.Originally Posted by New Dawn
Ok this part is sort of the answer. It's a case of hoping it had been done already.
I don't see the life and death in it all myself.
I think I understand Pilgrim's disappointment, but at this point I'll let him speak for himself if he so desires.
Although I don't think a case of the blues could be confused with life and death drama. Can't someone be disappointed without being accused of hyperdrama? -
Quote:I do have a workaround. It's rather inelegant, but it works.Originally Posted by Kishandra
Grr, I finally got my warshade up almost to lvl 22 and loaded up all my binds and macros for her. They worked perfectly fine last night when I did it, but now none of my macros are working and only some of my binds. I made some iffy macros for switching forms and at least ending up on the right tray, but none of the ones that switch form and then activate a power work. I'm frustrated, does anyone one have any work arounds so I can play my keld while they fix this mess?
To drop form and execute a power - let's say, Stygian Circle - use this bind:
/bind [key] "powexec_toggleoff black dwarf$$powexec_toggleoff dark nova$$goto_tray 1$$powexec_auto stygian circle"
Now I normally don't like those kinds of binds because they put a power on auto-fire, meaning that it will continue to go off as often as it recharges. Not only that, but the same command puts it on auto and takes it off auto, so the first time you use that bind everything will be hunky dory, but the SECOND time you use it the bind will actually take stygian circle OFF of auto-fire, meaning it won't go off at all. SO you'll have to change your shifting form binds as follows:
/bind [key] "powexec_toggleon black dwarf$$goto_tray 9$$powexec_auto dark extraction"
/bind [key] "powexec_toggleon dark nova$$goto_tray8$$powexec_auto dark extraction"
The idea here is to put a DIFFERENT POWER on autofire than the one you want to activate when you drop form. This is because only one power can be put on autofire at a time, and so whenever you go into form you'll be putting a click power on auto that I'm guessing won't be such a bad thing if it somehow accidentally fires when you target your next corpse.
But the important thing is that stygian circle - or whatever power you want to activate - will be available every time you drop form.
Hope that helps. -
Has anyone gotten any feedback on when or if they are intending to fix this yet?
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Quote:The I-21 changes benefited those of us with high-level Peacebringers and enough influence to give them high recharge builds far more than anyone else. They were considered potentially overpowering changes because a high recharge, high-level build could make Light Form and Inner Light perma, provided you could click them every time they're up. This means that - owing to the fact that you'll have to waste time shifting form to click the proper powers and maintain capped resistance and damage bonus - it has suddenly become detrimental to take the forms at all....Originally Posted by New Dawn
Call me stupid by all means but I am at a loss as to why this is so, so, important. I went and looked at the PB and thought "okay" no real life and death circumstances and did the same with the WS.
How is it this troubles you so?
....IF you're going to take full advantage of the changes.
That's a big caveat. If you just like having the forms and enjoy being versatile you can still play the way you've always played without missing a beat. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, you've still gotten a fair buff in the higher levels.
But if you play like that you're still demonstrably underperforming. Not everyone cares about measurable performance.
Some of us do, and some of us suffer from the additional curse that we also care about the performance of the archetype as a whole. In other words, it's not enough that a few people with influence and high-level peacebringers can perform on par with other incarnates (who have all the versatility they need, tyvm). It's not enough that only warshades get phenomenal damage and and survivability while still having amazing synergy in their mezzing and control abilities.
There are those of us who want the archetype to be balanced within itself. We want Peacebringers to be on par with Warshades, and we don't think you should have to spend a fortune on a high end build and eschew the forms to do so.
Furthermore, we were told that the changes were a START, and that further datamining was needed before further buffs would be applied (like knockback being toned back in solar flare, pulsar and incandescent strike having the same mez type, etc.)
And in ANY case, we were told that when they had time they would shorten the form-shift animation for both warshades and peacebringers.
Well, they apparently had time to figure out how to give us Light Form's glowing ball of light animation back as an alternate animation, but no time could be found for something that could actually benefit us.
Now the cynical among us - mostly me - never expected Hawk to give us any more changes at all, and so are not upset that more of the promised changes haven't come. Others, however, put it on the line defending the changes that were made on the promise that they were just the beginning.
So I can totally understand Grey Pilgrim's disappointment, and my hat's off to him. He handled the I-21 changes with a lot more class than I did.
TL/DR version: If you're happy with kheldians now, it's likely that you were either happy with them before I-21 or you're one of the few who can take full advantages of them now and doesn't mind playing in human form.
Either way, you can rest assured that you will go on NOT being disappointed in your character's performance.
And my hat's off to you, too. -
Quote:I suppose that depends on whether or not you think a roughly 30dps gain on an SO attack chain is gaining real benefit from the changes. (Given that SO'd warshades were roughly 115dps higher before the buffs)Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I think you're exaggerating a bit.
Buffs that were promised, don't forget. Now some of them - like the changes to Pulsar and Solar Flare that we wanted - were conditional on further datamining. Shorter form-shifts and others weren't.Quote:No, but it is to immediately complain after not getting consecutive buffs.
So while mitigating circumstances do happen, it's not exactly the same thing as crying "MOAR BUFFS" after having just gotten a round. The I-21 changes were always advertised as incremental, with the followup coming for I-22.
I've been complaining about the buff since before it went live. There's a difference between getting a buff that addresses your archetype's problems and getting the wrong buff that only helps a few.Quote:I didn't say it was him that wouldn't play his kheldian--I was referring to the other poster, actually--but it is a bit of a stretch to start immediately complaining after the buff we just received. People like to forget to be happy with what they have, and always demand more.
We asked for specific buffs, and got something very different in return.
Bah. I wasn't accusing you of being mean, just hamming it up with THB.Quote:I wasn't aware I was being mean. I'm simply taking, what is, in my opinion, the logical view on things. Also, I like being the devil's advocate. -
Hey I just thought of one animation change they DID make. Maybe? Are we still getting the ball of light animation for Light Form back as an alternate?
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Quote:Ironically enough, the I-21 changes absolutely thrilled PVP Peacebringer players.Originally Posted by Stormbird
At least we're not PVP.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
To us min/maxers, sure, shapeshifting might not be worth it. But it still functions as it is intended to--just, you know, not as good as it should. It is certainly over the top and/or raging when people declare that they will (only now) stop playing because they felt the buff wasn't good enough, or complain that a large improvement isn't large enough.
Thing is, it was only the min-maxers that saw any real benefit from those changes AT ALL. Tri-formers and form specialists saw almost no benefit whatsoever.
And it isn't over-the-top to not have the heart to play an archetype that you've put as much work into promoting as a candidate for improvement after the developers heeded the last-minute bandwagon requests of an elite few and ignored everyone else.
Heaven knows Pilgrim poured his soul into it. Although I don't think it was him that said he wouldn't play his Peacebringer any more.
So yeah. Be nicer to him. -
Incidentally, has anyone had the time to test whether those assinine bonuses made it into the Kheldian-specific IO set as they were originally presented?
What were they? More resistance and hit points for dwarf and more damage for nova? I think it was something like that.
If the way the current stalker changes are "meshing" with the stalker set I don't have a great deal of hope... -
Quote:Tell that to anyone under 38 or anyone with SO's. Besides. Warshades have been able to do that since I-9, AND they get triple the damage we do AND they get psi resistance included.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Kind of hard to be unhappy about being permanently at the dam-res cap without even taking your shields....
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Now you know why I was so PO'd at the time. I knew that would be it. They made changes that only a select few at the higher levels could enjoy and did nada for SO builds and lower levels outside of a mediocre boost to build up that I had already numerically proven wouldn't make us competitive damage dealers.
But if you need consolation, think about this: the vast majority of Peacebringer players seem to be deliriously happy with the changes they have. I see more Peacebringers now than ever.
SoQuote:/em Monte Python "yay." -
The wife and I will be try and make it! I have scrappers at just about all levels from incarnate on down, and have stalkers at incarnate, mid-30's, and mid-20's. I think about four of them, so I'd be willing to switch to whatever accomodates.
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And trials are going to fail. Often for stupid reasons. I've been astounded lately at the number of BAF's I've seen fail because no one would listen to the leader on the prisoner escape phase.
I just shrug and wait for the next one. But when the venom starts to fly, I quietly quit the league and do something else.
And as I said above - I thought the trial went great until the end. There's a LOT for new players to learn about fighting Antimatter that is difficult for leaders to communicate. If you go over it before the trial starts people forget. If you try to use macros and get it across at the right time then there's the chance that so much is going on that people miss it (or don't pay attention). It takes a few times for people to remember everything.
That's why I consider Keyes a gateway trial for the others. If you can't wrap your head around that one, the other trials won't be for you.
And that's okay.
But there's NO excuse for the kind of vitriol that followed what was supposed to be a non-badge trial for new 50's, IMHO. -
Quote:The problem with "Get out of the green" is that every single power and effect Antimatter throws out is green. "Get out of the big green circle," given at the appropriate time, might have been heeded more readily. Someone shouting "LOOK AT YOUR !@(*#^$ FEET!" probably did more harm than good, given the fact that most people have been trained to look for rings around their feet in the BAF.Originally Posted by Ukaserex
And now, I think I see why our playerbase that is unshifted wants to do the harder stuff. Sheer boredom with BAF and LAM. And I really don't blame them.
I took a collection of players that were mostly plus 1, 2 or 3 +3s and the rest unshifted on a BAF, that went well.
Some of us had done a Keyes earlier, when a couple of folks on that props list above that weren't ignoring each other may have started to do so. It still succeeded, and although our league was light on heals, I figured we'd be ok. And I think we would have, except - just like in MoM, and UGT, and Apex, we have some players that simply cannot stay out of a specific area.
I know that anyone can get caught once or twice, because sometimes you can get held, and the oblit beam hits at the same time. Not much one can do about that. But, some of these folks just need more than a "stay out of the green". For whatever reason, it seems some players don't trust the leader, and want to know why. Some players require structure and need to know who's accountable for this task and that task. Even if the league really doesn't. There could be a number of causes - I suspect that if the oblit beam were red, folks would have an easier time. Maybe they think green is good. <shrug> In any event, that was an abysmal failure. Particularly frustrating when you see plenty of time left to take out a bag of HP, and then you see that bag get bigger because some folks had lag, got distracted by kids, or something - and then don't understand that some players are really quite driven to excel - not just succeed barely, but expect things to be well done. I certainly want things to be done well. But, I have to realize that Liberty has several tiers of player skill levels. And the term skill level isn't entirely accurate, because some players are exceptionally skilled, but also may be at work, taking care of children, or married to a spouse that doesn't understand that you never knock - you just slide the food under the door.
/end digress
After the keyes, we had too many to do a LAM - yet many wanted to do a MoM. I explained the purple patch, and one fellow said to me, who cares? Let's just have fun. So, I figured if I'm gonna blow a trial, I'll do one I've already got macro's for.
It was really ugly. None of the tanks were equipped for the IDF, or the AVs. Somehow, we got through the first one, despite a much longer than normal battle. We worked our way to the pair of AVs, and got by the self-repairing, though that was looking scary - seems that the fight took so long, a lot of us had run out of temps. But, we finally got him down, but ran out of time against the second.
The IDF were camping against the scrappers I'd assigned to the regen lichen, and that's all it took to let the AV to regen from 10% back up to about 40%, and from that point, we rallied back, and then suffered a Lethal Force. It would seem a lot of the folks had more fun losing than winning, but I could be wrong. To be honest, I never expected to get that far.
But, yours truly got his blaster from +1 to +3, plenty of time for Friday's scheduled run.
I had to cash in a couple of threads for it, but now I can work on my invuln tank and emp until Friday.
Sadly, the bulk of our players on Liberty do not take the time to learn about things like the "purple patch". It'd be a good thing if they knew more about it, but I guess when you bring math into a game, it takes the fun out for some.
I want to thank those of you that have stepped up and started leading these bafs and lams. I sure hope the next issue or two will have some more elementary trials for the players to do, because I'm sure most of us are really quite tired of them.
Cheers!
If you're new to the Keys Island Reactor Trial, you're used to BAF-style rings, and everything going on around you is green, you're probably not going to notice when the ground at your feet is green as well. And you'll likely panic when people keep insisting that you "get out of the green." When someone tells you to look at your feet you're probably going to look for something else.I know it's the name of the badge, but not everyone reads the guides. Irresponsible on their part? Yup. A little. But pretty common.
And FWIW, I thought you did a fantastic job as trial leader - so much so that the first three phases went by so swimmingly that I thought it was in the bag. I've historically had some lag issues that have kept me out of the trials since before the Keyes nerf, (and sporadic lag kept me in that damnable obliteration ray once or twice last night) but you're one of the leaders who brought me back around to doing them, and for that you have my thanks.
But I don't really think it was the obliteration beam that killed it. I honestly think it was people dying from disintegration. I'm not sure they knew that he regenerates a truckload of health when someone dies in his line of sight while they're affected by it. I think I only saw "dis" once in league, and I don't think anyone even healed that person, given the number of times he/she repeated it.
Nonetheless, I do think that some league members calling those people stupid was out of line. The communication on that last part from the top down wasn't so great, either. (And again - that's completely understandable given how well the first three went - didn't seem to be necessary).
Wednesday night was supposed to be for newbies, was it not? One sure-fire way to discourage newbies is to get all up in their faces on what's supposed to be newbie night. (You were a prince about it. Others were not)
Or have I misunderstood? Could've sworn Wednesday nights were for unshifted 50's to run the first three trials. Am I wrong on that? -
Quote:For the record, I was indeed suggesting a gender change.Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Oh I thought he was saying that you could use female pieces on the male form with the super tailor. I have no clue how the thing works.
And yes, I was joking.