SingStar

I totally agree... The xp on custom mob groups could be taken out as well, or cut in 10ths so they're still a fun and/or useful part of your story, but not farmable.

From a "story" standpoint it's pretty rediculous you earn "real" things from the MA. I understand we need something to keep us playing it and it has to be good enough for enough of us to keep using it. If not it would be dead today.

Basically it's a balancing issue and that's for datamining and devs to sort out. Of course it can be done, just like the merits, power balancing etc. They'll get it right in due time if they consider it important enough.

I was surprisingly interested in the MA when it hit live servers. Stupid badges, and then the lag/dc killed it off pretty fast, but I'm still looking forward to testing more inside SG jokes, crafting arcs myself etc, and in time I'm sure there'll be some fabulous stuff there.

I really liked the first space patrol arc and a few others that was genuinely original and well crafted.

The problem is of course that we really can't afford mistakes and problems right now. It used to be fairly ok, we'd know they'd fix it, and there was no other temptations, so we waited, and waited...

...CoP anyone?

That wasn't even nearly the reason I posted the OP in the beginning. The Com officers RAISED the question: What do we consider to be an exploit in this game.

That has NOTHING to do with the definition of farming, I even explicitly asked people to try to forget the words farming, PLing etc and think hard for themselves about their values and thoughts. Now that you're hopefully finished we might get back on topic, so I ask again:

In this game, what do you consider to be your definition of an "exploit"?
Post three things: Your definition, an example of how it would apply in-game and an example of how it would NOT apply.

I'll give an example:
I consider an exploit to be something the devs overlooked, or a bug, that a limted amount of users use to gain a statistical advantage.

Examples of this is getting under the floor to safely solo a GM, the arena confuse thingy, being able to get into the enemy hospital through some sort of glitch etc.

Examples where this does not apply is the TV mission or Dreck, or badge grinds because everyone that want(ed) to do them did them and it was common knowledge they could. Noone got a real advantage. Those where unbalances in the game, something for the devs to continually monitor and balance.

Borderline was probably the boat grind that gave easy rare loot. A lot of people knew about it and "abused" it, but it wasn't really, really common knowledge and a lot missed out on it, giving some an unfair advantage in loot -> possible inf etc even if that doesn't really matter in this game unless you pvp imho.

I consider this borderline part being the most interesting:
Unfair advantage: well, 8 fire/rad trollers have an unfair advantage, 8 ice/kin corrs at 50 will nuke every mob, a good team that knows the game has an unfair advantage. o where do you draw the line?

Complaining in a thread ruins it imho, if the two of us have a problem we sort it out.
Can we get back on-topic?

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I disagree! I think you're interpreting what the OP was saying, and misinterpreting it, leading up to a post that is almost totally off-topic. Don't put your words and thoughts into the OPs text.

also, you're not even arguing about that, you're arguing about farming, so even by your own standards you're off-topic. Why not start your own thread about what you wanna say, or maybe a blog?

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Threads here don't always stay on topic - the discussion evolves as people give their opinions, and new thoughts come up.

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Also off-topic!

I disagree! I think you're interpreting what the OP was saying, and misinterpreting it, leading up to a post that is almost totally off-topic. Don't put your words and thoughts into the OPs text.

also, you're not even arguing about that, you're arguing about farming, so even by your own standards you're off-topic. Why not start your own thread about what you wanna say, or maybe a blog?

Still have little to do with the original post Razor.
Did you read it?

...ergo being off-topic!

Razer, you still just don't get it.
I ONLY wanted to hear what people thought. This was not a forum for debate, but you didn't care, you descided to crash the party, and now the thread IS ruined!

You're "argumenting" with people could've been done on all the other threads discussion similar matters, you could've started your own thread.

I wanted a clean cut thread where people could, without agreeing or disagreeing with anyone:
1. Tell us what they think is THEIR PERSONAL definition of exploit
2. Give an example of what they consider to be an exploit
3. give an example of what might come close to that, but in their mind still isn't an exploit.

A clean-cut list of what people think would have been very interesting, and I very specifically asked people NOT to argue with each other on this thread, but you and some other ppl chose to disrespect that and also to disrespect other peoples OPINION. I'm trying very hard not to get too personal, but basically - while I agree with you on your critisism on other peoples definition - you showed why it's so totally pointless to actually try using this forum for anything good, why it's totally pointless to start threads, and why it's totally pointless trying to be "part of the community" and why this game is having such a hard time attracting new people.

Being a social science teacher, I encourage discussions and arguments, but there's a time and place for everything. I asked you to PM people if you wanted to discuss with them, I even PMd you about it but yet again and again you chose to be ignorant.

You could argue with them via PM, you could argue with them on new threads, but nope. I was REALLY interested in hearing peoples opinions, because thats the FIRST IMPORTANT thing, letting people say what they think, THEN you can argue, but the thread is already ruined.

Thanks a lot.

You know Razor, I did agree with you, but I think I'm gonna change side just for the heck of it and because this thread to has gone off-topic.

If the devs consider farming and grinding = exploiting, then - in this game - it is. There! You happy! The full force of the forum couldn't make me say that 5 minutes ago, but now I'll stick to it for one simple reason.

I would personally like to thank especially Golden Girl and Razor for ruining another thread that started very well. TY for once again ruining something for the rest of us.

At this moment, I hope Avatea deletes this thread even though it has some really good posts. You ppl just can't stop yourselves can you? Yes, this is personal and I'm prolly getting slapped for it, but for crying out loud...

CAN WE PLEASE DROP THAT DISCUSSION NOW!
Read the friggin' original post!

Razor: That's the point here. THEY ARE ENTITLED to their opinion and that's why I started this thread: I wanna know their opinion no matter how much I disagree.

You may also disagree so much it's eating you up, but take it out on them somewhere else, PLEASE! You've had your chance to post you're definition, now shut up and let everyone else give their side without you jumping on them. If they disturb you so much, don't continue reading this thread. PLEASE!

And GG, ty for respecting my whish, not posting those oneliners for so long, must've been hard. Now go away again, please!

PLEASE PEOPLE, and Razor in particular:
Don't argue with each other on this thread.

Just tell us how you define an exploit and give us two borderline examples, one that you consider being an exploit, and one that's pretty close but you don't consider it one.

If you don't agree with someone, PM them, start a new thread, whatever, but DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT IT here.

Let's just leave the MA and the com officers to history, just forget it ever happened even if it highlighted several problems. PLEASE, pretty please!

For once I whish the forum really was moderated!

Again hero2 and fanservice, I'm perfectly aware of that and I'm not disputing it in any way whatsoever, but I disagree with using wikipedia as a source of any knowledge (teacher you know, we're picky)...

I didn't ask for the technical term "game exploit", I was merely interested in how different people view this term, because - we, the people actually make up the language. Yes, the devs can have their definition and we can't do anything about it, it's their game, but I'm STILL interested in hearing different views, WITHOUT anyone picking on anyone. Yes, fanservice, I DON'T want people to start arguing with each other, just explress their opinion and describe where the line's drawn according to them.

If you think that's somehow wrong, setup another thread and flame as much as you want about it, or start a silly PM ping-pong with me. I'm game!

My original question still stands, and I think we've seen some really good examples. Thanks for that.

Oh, mental note, change payment plan to monthly asap!

Mr G may be the yesterday man, but what he did for gaming way before TR is more than NC ever done collectively. Properly run TR could've been a great title.

I'll probably get slapped in the face for this, but I bet NC had it coming, and going out in space: Rooohaaah, man, that's the PROPER way to spend rediculous amount of inf!

We had an argument comparing real life crimes before, so I thought I'd pitch in another one:

IMHO, there's now the potential for the IP holder to punish players for being players...

...according to many religions AND state laws sexual encounters and/or some sexual activities (let's not go further than that) are forbidden. There's even people getting, yes, stoned for far less than that. Just being eternally damned for using some sort of "protection" is really harsh. It's punishing people for being people, for being human.

A slap on the wrist, "don't go there again" in this case might be ok, but really, this is just the constant "war" between the players seeking an edge and the devs, balancing the game. It's the devs job to keep balancing it even if it's a never-ending near-impossible job, and you might even argue it's our duty to keep pushing them by looking for the "next exploit/unbalanced whatever".

I have no problem with them going as far as banning people for using blatant, obvious exploits in the future, since they've made it clear they might use the full arsenal from now on. but like the devs we might need to give it one more thought: At this very moment, what's best for the game and its future?

I personally agree that this was rather more of a VERY unbalanced thingy, than an actual exploit, but that's marking words and really doesn't matter that much. What matters now is, it's been fixed and no matter how much you may dislike some people, annoying people or in any way whatsoever decreasing the player base, especially EU side, redside, defiant, would be oh-so-foolish.

Give them a warning, heck, give them a hall of shame title so everyone can see they've been naughty, but for the love of purples, don't drive any more players away from the game.

Got some questions about it so:
No, I can't be bothered doing that "The stoning of Positron" mission for SS brutes/tanks and/or the video of us stoning him today.
It will remain on the "to-do list" though. I think it would be a fun event we could "share" with the US by creating a chain of videos on Youtube.

Please don't start arguing and flaming in THIS thread.
Just try to explain as clearly as possible what you consider to be an exploit. If unsure, check the original post.

There's been enough flames this month.

also, let's just leave the rikti com officers for now. It was interesting because it made that very thin line betweeen using and A-busing into something very emotional we could rage about one way or another.

Of course the IP holders, the owners can do whatever they want with the game, including making their own rules - and they do, they will do, and they have done - and it'll continue to upset people unless they're dead smack in the middle somehow. Let's not bother with what the-powers-that-be thinks - in this thread.

I wanna know what YOU, the players think. (and right now I don't care what you think about what others think, let's just not go there, PLEASE)

Some more examples:
- I DO have a bots/ff mastermind on my second account. Is using it with my primary account squishy corruptor an exploit? If I play against mainly or ONLY melee foes and that MM keeps them from getting close and/or harming me? Is it an exploit if I target missions that let me do it? Or if I use the MA to make grinding, boring missions that takes ages?
- What about badge hunts? Is it an exploit to stick your character in a mission, getting sappers to work you over while you watch another episode of Heroes? If you go down 'resting' taking damage while sleeping or going off to work?

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I'm not a farmer and I haven't used MA to farm, I get real satisfaction from making 50s without that. Like others the constant spamming of farm teams have annoyed me along with boasts from people who have made 1-50 in a matter of hours, when mine took me weeks.

However surely the simple answer here is to draw a line now and say no more, sure they need to make more tweaks, but I don't see the sense in punishing players for exploiting something that their bad design and short-sightedness allowed to happen and that's from someone who kinda disapproves to a degree. That’s unless someone is profiting from this, perhaps PL sites or selling accounts.

Rather than make what could be deemed as a possible threat to users accounts, perhaps an apology would be more in keeping. This should be a time to consolidate rather than alienating players further.

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Short, to the point! ...and spot on!

The now epic thread has been cluttered quite a lot with the discussion about this topic: What actually constitutes an Exploit?

I'm starting this thread, not to continue with repeated bashing between the "two sides", but actually hoping to really discuss the subject, since the MA rikti com officer grinds made it rather evident we do have very different opinions about it.

As for the rikti com officers, my personal opinion was that it was known to the devs and they didn't consider it important enough to warrant immediate action. Was it an exploit? For me, an exploit is something that a few people use to gain an edge over others, to screw with the statistics if you so want. In this case - again - so many used it, that it BECAME the statistic. It was good they got rid of it, most of us agree on that.

but what about other stuff that comes close to it. Let me give some examples:

- Fire radiation controller 8 man teams are rediculously powerful. I've had some serious fun with them and levelling is really, really fast. Nerfing the build would make it useless for solo play, so is it an exploit to play with 7 others? Where's the line where it's not an exploit then?

- any kin team becomes more powerful than a team without kins, right? So when does it become an exploit? I run an all fire rad/kin team at the moment, usually 3-5 team mates. We do some excellent evil work I tell you. Is that bad?

- There are serveral builds that give you an upper hand against other specific critters. Is it an exploit to target those missions? What about repeating/targetting Freakshow missions?

- Compared to that I also play with London & Co whenever i get the chance. Why? Because we have fun even if we're pretty bored of the actual game. Knowing each other and our builds and pretty much anything there is redside we can run through pretty much anything so fast it's rediculous and we don't even pay attention to the game really because for us it's routine whatever we do.

Now: if you think any of the other above are exploits, in what way isn't this last example an exploit too? But you can't seriously suggest we shouldn't be allowed to form teams, SGs etc with certain builds?

Is anything that gives you a lot of XP/Inf/loot in a short amout of time an exploit? Where's the line between "right" and "wrong"? Intent? "Yeah, it's ok as long as you play for fun, and don't really care about the loot"?

As I said, I'm not here to start another mad, lame, loooong flame... The above was just a pointer to give you a head start for this more specific question:

Can you describe, WITHOUT ARGUING WITH OTHERS POSTING HERE, how you define an exploit, preferably giving an border line example of what's NOT an exploit, and what IS an exploit?

Now, there's a lot of other words that usually gets mixed up in this discussion like farming, "game-breaking" etc. Could we try NOT to fall into that trap, and stay on the rather narrow line of "exploit"?

And please, for the love of GOD, GG, could you NOT post one-liners on this thread, pretty please?

Well, here's the thing, there's NO QUESTION they could've taken down the MA. Would we be upset about it? Hell yeah!

Would it be better than leaving it up and issuing vague threats to the whole players base? Hell yeah!

I don't want another CoP fiasco, believe me, but this has already turned out to be a bigger one. The 5th speech and this together is worse than ED, pvp changes and CoP put together, and you are right of course, whatever they do it's gonna be seen as "wrong" by a lot of people.

...ergo handle with care! Not a nuke, not a bull dozer, don't rush in with a bunch of tanks and start foot stomping. and don't use the chatterbox to tell everyone how powerful you are and you're gonna show who's yer daddy'oh!

Once again, it's not so much WHAT they do, but HOW they go about doing it that really, really sets me off.

Now, I'm gonna go off and start a new thread hoping to bring parts of the discussion away from this thread:

Thread starts with: What is an exploit?

Hopefully we can divert that discussion from this one?

The problem here is we're debating two very different things:

One side is saying that farmers should get smacked in the head hard. Then they explain repeatedly why.

The other side is saying Positron made a bad statement and Paragon has handled this situation badly at a time where handling the situation badly is, well, very bad. Then they go on explaining why they think so.

The thing is we (most of us) pretty much actually agree on most things:

The situation had to be handled.
It should've been handled sooner.
It's been very bad for the game.

My point remains this though: You may think whatever the heck you want about those that abused the Com officer farms, and have/will exploit other parts of the game, but no matter what you say, how you phrase it this was handled poorly at a time where the game can't affort (any more) bad PR. Even farmers pay their bills that pay the devs that we so badly need for new, serious "story" content and other game updates.

You can keep on raging about how you hate the farmers and they deserve anything that might hit them, but due to the way Positrons announcement was phrased no matter what happens, it has been and will be bad for the game.

IMHO Paragon needs to sit down CALMLY, think this over, and more importantly devise a long term strategy for handling crisis situations, and more importantly think well and hard how they handle their PR and customer contacts.

The customer is always right, even when that's not true. ALL the customers, every single one! One very simple reason: They...provide... the green, important pieces of paper called MONEY! Without the "greens" we all get a lot of NOTHING!

Apart from that we're all just arguing for the sake of arguing, and that's fine. What's farming? What's an exploit? All worth debating, but at the moment the REAL issue is stated above!

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A majority of players have indeed been requesting measures to be taken against farming since Beta. Measures can now be taken.

It's taken a while to get to the bottom of this but please, does it have this poisonous on these boards?

I understand that many are conjecturing wildly after what Positron said but, had we decided to react more lightly than this, there would have been just as much ruckus.

We haven't specified the exact extent of the measures we are taking against farming and those who have benefited from it, so let's not over-react.

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THAT is the exact perfect reason to over-react, Avatea. Scare tactics that leaves people hanging by a thread. Yes, OF COURSE actions had to be taken, but hangin' up the Damoclese sword coupled with the, pardon the language bloody rediculously lame-(youknowwhat) 5 ani speech is just another really sad example of total lack of PR skills and customer knowledge.

If you do little now, everyone's gonna go, "oh, they just shoot blanks anyway, nothing to worry about", if you use the sledge hammer, the game's dead.

The game slowly died down yesterday. I'm happy that fixed a lot of things, but there's not even people to CHAT with now, let alon play with redside. Ergo, friggin' Travian's more fun now - again! It's rediculous!

Govern by fear, live in fear!

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Yes, they are both illegal. Claiming they are not is incorrect.

So the comparison stands. It is not important HOW illegal it is, it is only important if it is illegal or not. Since the OP claimed that he had done nothing wrong when he clearly did.

I am not talking about punishments. Just about morals.

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..and that's why the comparizon isn't even near being valid. I'm talking about the devs actions, you're talking about the players actions that I don't give a censored, censored and censored about. Neither does any other poster you guys are arguing with here.

Noone has defended the lvl 1-50 in 2 days farmers. NOONE! what we're saying is something completely different, but you're so locked up thinking we do defend them you totally miss what we're saying.

Now, if you actually care to discuss the real thing there's 31 pages of repeated, actually valid arguments that you guys don't really respond to. You come with arguments, instead of countering our arguments.

You care about "them" being punished!
We care about the game and it's survival.

Enjoy the game when there's just five of you left on the server, because positron made the rest of us leave for various reason due to his wonderful Charm!

Good Night! Not a very good fight!

Oh, btw... Looking for people to make a new vid tomorrow. I need some super strength folks that can throw rocks...

"The stoning of Positron", not inspired by:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/indepe...ningofsorayam/
but migth be worth watching!