SilverAgeFan

The biggest problem actually with the pretinting folks are encountering is that the piece is now two color when you try to make it monochrome--especially in the bib and the bustier where we get the barber stripes. That and it can't be made white--especially the dress train which just ends up looking grey and dirty when you try.

And to reiterate my comments a few pages back this could be solved via good workflow and properly structured source files where pretinted surface patterns, like the stripes, are kept on separate layers from modeling shadows. Turn off pattern details, export a compressed texture. Turn on pattern details, export another compressed texture. Tag and name both properly in your build. Two options. One with stripes and pretinting on the dress train. One without.

Especially since the majority of pre-marketing of this set, prior to the exclusive print release of the saloon gal concept illustration, was simply the verbal leak of the name "Gunslinger."

That gave the more attuned and devoted player base plenty of time to ruminate on what would comprise the "Gunslinger" set. Most your marketing here was viral. I suppose with being an internet company, you face that risk with ANY set. So precise, concise evocative is pretty key for y'all.

Speaking of which, FWIW, before people get too far ahead of themselves with the medieval/knight pack that has been mentioned repeatedly upthread, know that the ONLY confirmation we have of this are blank pieces that have slipped into live and test. And the set is currently titled "Chainmail."

Not if they want costume microtransactions to work as a solid revenue model...

Actually, had I seen the concept art, in addition to my complaints here I would have added:

How about some mix and match pieces? Gloves with fringe? An old school rifle slung on the back? A rifle for AR? And most importantly: holsters, holsters, holsters.

Again, unless they are seriously toying with tech that will within 15 months lead to players being able to use Maelstrom's 2 state holsters with weapons holstered and drawn, there is no reason I can think of that this set did not include at least one holstered pistol for each character model.

I would also have advised that if dusty, rugged gunslinger is what they really weren't going for, then I would've suggested they go full rodeo or full saloon & riverboat casino. And if they did go for either of the latter, I'd suggest that they rename the set for marketing purposes from the get go.

I am already saddened that in the coffee talk, Zwil is stating they will be making sets less unique in the future. I think the wrong message may have gotten across. I think what I stated in a prior post in this thread really summarizes the problem: The art direction should look at these concepts and think about a male and female casting and costuming of the SAME ROLE, rather than thinking of casting two different characters, one male and one female, in the SAME PLAY. i.e. How would you cast and costume a female King Lear or how would you cast and costume a male Ellen Ripley, maintaining key aesthetic and conceptual traits without simply phoning it in with straight cross-dressing. It's clear to me that somebody in the art department gets this concept, otherwise the Fusionette/Fusion continuum would not have been so well maintained. Same concept. Apply it to costume packs.

By order of Zeus?

(I'm just funning with you. As I was with the image I quoted. I do agree with most everything you've posted in this thread, especially your open letter. And yes, I too think the strumpet should have been split off from the gunslinger set and both filled out and released as two full packs.)

The heart protects itself. If you can't see the poetry in this, your own heart is so very cold. Cold as snow...

The old witch hat does something unique that hardly any other hat in game does: you can use it with a full mask as a costume detail, in very comic book fashion.

I'd like NS to pass along to character artists the suggestion that going forward (and preferably back to a few select legacy or pay-to-wear hats), while the geometry models are fresh in the oven, two versions for each model should be exported: one with hair and one without. This would then mean that ANY forthcoming stylized hat can become a "signature costume item" for more classic heroes and villains without having to try and work around the hair.

i.e.--I would have gotten a TON of usage out of that pilgrim hat were it hair free. It is just that weird and wonderful. May get some pics later and to illustrate what I mean.

I think what they are requesting then is how about a simple skin, similar to the "metallic skin" but without the ridges so a player could in theory make a liquid metal/reflective character.

Speaking of experiments with reflectivity, do you have the ability to apply reflectivity to fx particles? Have you tried? Curious to know the results. Thinking about shortcuts to interesting and trippy visuals here.

Speaking only for myself, I really like the metallic parts we have. I don't mind environmental reflections. I do dislike the pretinting that limits the hues though that some set and parts, like the Celestial Armor, can take.

I also don't mind the way certain legacy pieces, like the CoV skulls, were given the option for matte and metallic finishes. Some generic bump maps and levels of reflectance would likely be appreciated by the player base at large. Having these in your art departments back pocket wouldn't be a bad idea--based on some sets I'd be surprised if they weren't already there though.

In the specific case of these helmets, I'd suggest polished chrome (like metallic skin and some valkyrie parts) and a less reflective surface of "hammered steel" as an alternate.

It's mismanagement, plain and simple. Post feedback revision time is not scheduled into their workflow currently. Zwill all but came out and stated that. This is at best an oversight with the establishment of Freedom.

The Paragon Store transforms their development model to more significantly lean on revenue streams from the sale of virtual fashion items than it has over the past 7 years. If they are going to function as a virtual fashion retailer, they need to re-examine this workflow and resource budgeting. The artists need time to address concerns as thoroughly as they did with the CoT pack. Snow Globe hit the nail on the head with the Open Letter to Paragon: Quality is key here.

In my experiences, immediately addressing revisions can be healthy for an overall workflow and save artist time/money in the future:

- First, you ask the artist to do revisions while a project and the working files are still pretty fresh in their mind. The edits are exponentially quicker for most artists to do when they don't need to refamiliarize themselves with their old files.

- Second, doing revisions in closer proximity allows many artists' minds to learn in intuitive ways how they may avoid similar snafus going forward. For example, for Cheryl, this would drive home the pain that relying too heavily on pretinting in her designs can result in. Similarly, addressing the stripes on the bustle and bodice could drive home the need in her working texture files to ALWAYS keep pattern details separate from modeling shadows. And to keep said working texture files properly organized. In theory, with a solid workflow, revisiting and removing those stripes should be a 15-30 minute affair to crunch and export a new file. Obviously there is some tagging that needs to take place to get a secondary texture into a build, but this really should be doable. And it *should* be rather minimal if working art assets are built properly on the front end. These are all lessons that many artists working in corporate production environments need to learn, via training and direct experience, within their first few years in the trenches.

- Third, and related to point two, management and marketing owning up to this poor release (at least internally), regardless of who goofed or provided unrealistic expectations or demands upon the artists production schedule, allows management to start immediately setting more realistic schedules. If your artist always grossly underestimates their production schedule by 33%, overbudget that time even if you don't tell them. Learn your lesson *now* and start scheduling revision time at the end of each costume set cycle *right now* going forward. And if marketing says no--push back and let them know why. Management and marketing need to learn and adapt as well for the longterm health of any studio (regardless of industry).

Edit: and for the love of gob, management and marketing need to get real about the absolute need for post consumer feedback revision time in their scheduling. It should at minimum equal 15-20% of the time budgeted to any art based cash costume release.

Not bad. Your inability to use the new bustle (and cape train) in white because of the pretinting demonstrates precisely my feedback with images on the previous page.

I also think this character demonstrates an example of a costume that could benefit from the option I also suggested in that same post: a version of the new bustle sans cape train. Those bows would carry her decorated bridal look even further. Especially if the bows could be colored a nice accent color, say pink or powder blue. Further, such a bustle would allow one to mix and match the new bustle (without the cape train) with the original wedding back bridal hair with the veil cape.

He needs a good troll name. Seriously. And an AE arc.

Edit: But I would have gone with the Barbarian bracelet gloves instead. Those are an option for males, right? Or am I misremembering?

The art team's work flow needs to be reviewed then. There are all sorts of tricks and transformations that would allow at least for subgrouping assets that can be cut, pasted and resized. Some elements will of course need to be redrafted. But geometry points can be modified and regrouped in many industry standard software packages, whether you are working for cinematic animation, games or manufacturing.

Speculating from an outside but not entirely inexperienced vantage, going from male to huge should in most cases only take 50% of the time it took to make the original.

Workflow and file structure are pretty key for this stuff.

Comments like this have me wondering how old working files of assets are archived and what multi-artist project standards if any are being employed. In theory, your assets should be well managed and structured enough that two years after his leaving, any new artist could crack open one of Jay's old 3d files and within 15 minutes have a good handle on the build of the object and how to edit or modify it efficiently.

Thanks for the update. Best to Jay in his future ventures. 7 years at any one station is a long stretch.

To that point, if the pretinting on this set were fixed AND two new sets: a gunslinger for her and a gambling man for him were introduced and priced at 200 pts a piece and a pair of holsters (single gun and double gun) were thrown in for good measure (even at an additional 40pts each), I'd buy it all. 880 pts. total. 400 for the original pack. 200 for the "fill in the gaps" costumes. And 80 pts. for the gun belt variants.

And Zwill, as you gather feedback, please for my part, make it clear to the artist Cheryl that this is not a criticism of her hard work. I think the modeling and texturing, given the game engine restrictions, is quite good on these elements (and the attempt at a dress via belt bustle and buttskirt tech is laudable). I think the faults here lie with management: not addressing pretinting concerns early enough, not recognizing the divergent gender based themes soon enough in this pack to split it into two full packs, overlooking the inclusion of proper gun belts, etc.

Love that look. Really wish we could have gotten holsters.

Considering the chunkiness of the police belt we've had for several years, still not sure why we didn't.

The only justifiable reason would be because the devs have something like Maelstrom's 2 state animated holsters (with guns holstered and drawn) in the works. But I really really doubt that.

In fact, if these parts need to be teh sexay, the secondary belts on many holsters that go around the upper thigh sjust below the buttocks have the same lifting and accentuating qualities that chaps do for both him and her. Maybe moreso. Probably why they often get worked into neo western film costuming...

In before this post gets a big mod edit. But must say that last photo--those football "uniforms" look hilariously uncomfortable. Talk about wedgies! Ouch!

Some are complaining about that. Me? I'm fine with that to be honest. I'm fine with the temptress aspect. As a stereo type it exists in wide ranging pulp fiction in general.

But for me, as I've stated several times in several ways throughout the thread, it's about a divergence of implied roles, tactics and powers in the two different costumes.

A temptress or harlot recast as a super hero or villain has male counterparts, some sexualized some not. Regardless, the archetype carries with it an implication of distraction, seduction and or deception as a tactic. Look at the pinstripes while I rake you over the coals sort of thing. (Again, I think the riverboat gambler the more fitting period counterpart to the saloon girl we got here...)

Meanwhile, the gunslinger, as an archetype in my mind, is about grit. I've already used the word rugged to describe this character. This sort of character, though there are the Marty McFly exceptions, may be stoic but is not necessarily deceptive. They get by (or is it "git by" in this case?) on their stamina, constitution and will. The traditional gunslinger hero (and arguably even the villains) can be taken at face value--which is the opposite of a character that relies upon deception or seduction.

Risking jumping down a well of gender based literary critique, that sort of ruggedness, when championed in a female character can be quite compelling. It's arguably the central basis of both the book True Grit and the subsequent films. "Little prairie girl can't be tough." "Whoa. Little girl is tough." Or the story of Calamity Jane. Or Joan of Arc. Or Coco Chanel. Or Amelia Earhart. Etc. And many female characters in recent pulp narratives are cut from a similar cloth of tough, rugged, can-do exteriors.

From me, this is not a screed against overt female sexuality or the lasting realities of the male gaze. Both of those are worth celebrating and folding into characters. But there are also legitimate and worthy characters to be found that go against those grains. The female gunslinger is one such archetype IMO. So this is a headscratcher where the art direction and branding meet.

I have... something of a Kraven the Hunter with several twists. Swapping gender, race & ethnicity to create Big Game Bakhhita, an African National who... well... hunts.

That being said, I've wanted more skulls. The single shoulder legacy skull we have from CoV is a bit too Alien Resurrection at this point IMO. But I've never bothered requesting the bits as I thought it were simply too niche, especially with how many skulls we do have.

That being said, she has little use for much of the gunslinger set except MAYBE the gloves as she maintains much of Kraven's air of brutality and grittiness. IMO it helps make this particular gender swap work.

Did he leave just after the 12 hour livestream? I recall him being a guest for during that.

Hence my suggestion upthread for the project managers of these releases to look more carefully at the concept art and ask whether it is a complete, equitable release or if they are in fact looking at two distinct but adjacent themed costumes.

Ideally, these themed sets should represent female and male costuming for the *same* role. Not two *different* characters in the same play.

If the concept art in fact does portray two compelling, but distinct characters or roles, then perhaps the project manager should instead split the two and say "Awesome. Now give me a female version of that *points to Marty McFly* and a male equivalent of that *points to saloon girl*"

As I suggested, the equivalent of the saloon girl would have been the riverboat gambler male/old west barkeep/piano player--straw hat, arm garters, silk vest, etc. And the female equivalent of Marty would be some sort of Annie Oakley, with pants or long leather split skirt with fringe.

Best fortune I ever got:

"A romantic evening ends abruptly."

/sidetrack