SilverAgeFan
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Posts
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Quote:Try them out yourself in the costume creator on a DP character for free. You can do so but just can't advance in the creator, even if they are locked. From what I can tell having played with the set, they take colors fairly well.Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
However, I was toying with the idea of snagging a couple of the guns, as they have some interesting lines to them. It's not as vital as with other pieces, but I will ask anyway - how heavily pre-tinted are the guns, if at all? Can we at least get them looking like different types of metal? I have been remiss in finding out for myself... -
Quote:Yes and no. I mean I can't pretend to speak to what chain of decisions and events specifically lead to CoT v2.0 (I really like v2.1 though!) and the Reichsmann TFs. I wasn't there.Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Working for someone else by definition hampers creativity. Working for an established IP even more so. If anything, I think they need to set more rigid constraints on their creative teams. When you give your artists (and writers) full license to do what they want we get crap like the CoT v2.0 and the Reichsmann TFs.
But as an artist who works independently for myself, also has relationships with the management chains of exhibition venues AND has done freelance work for over a decade, I can say that there are indeed things that managers from very corporate environments can do to shield their creatives and foster them to thrive.
For one, I have worked jobs that may have say a 15 day production time. But my better managers include usually 2-3 days production just for me to research, to play, to push ideas, to fail, to come back, etc. When that is not there, I can guarantee that whomever is hiring me will likely be getting my first ideas and my first takes on a problem.
Similarly, there is constrained client contact for my part as a creative worker when things are ideal for my working habits. Clients can be psychotic. (These forums--including myself maybe?) Some of them (unlike these forums) really lack imagination, narrative or visual. So good project managers know how to protect ideas while they are still developing. (As they asserted was the case with CoT v2.0 when it was leaked.)
But there also always is a need for critique. To cycle back. To bring client feedback into the creative process at a stage. And to have adequate time budgeted for modifications. On those 15 day jobs, 5-8 of those days are often for revisions alone.
Beyond this, there is also a lot of nuance that I'm not really prepared to articulate. I'm talking about stuff that takes place at the interpersonal level. Rapport. As I sit here recounting, my best managers are all former artists or went through full art or design programs. They understand the brutality of academic art critique and can deliver without beating around the bush.
The places I usually work as a subcontractor for are usually subcontractors themselves. And these are in competitive industries often: fashion, entertainment and media. The stakes are high. When you get an opportunity, you need to swing for the fences. Every time. Surprise and impress the client with what they didn't know they wanted while delivering everything they asked for; be willing to be bold and know that sometimes less is more; all while meeting budgets and deadlines. If you falter in your track record, someone equally and driven and five to ten years younger than you is waiting for a shot right behind you.
But again, somehow, the best managers I've had, despite the harsh realities of this work environment I know as an artist, find ways to foster a safe creative place where excellence can matter--even if just momentarily within the production studio or editing suite. And it's these experiences that make me ask some sweeping, broad almost existential questions in response to Zombie Man's critique of what some of the things coming out of the art department can lead us on the outside to believe.
I don't know what the answers are for them. I truly don't. Not just because I don't know the details of their work environment. As I said in my, I've tried my hand at project management. In my niches can pay phenomenally well if you've got the chops and can avoid burnout. But I hated it. I like to keep my hands dirty. I like being the practical expert not the overseer. My perfectionism makes me more suited to be in the trenches and not at the helm. So I've no idea what sort of managerial corrections are in order.
And yes, freedom in a work place can lead to the problems you and ZM outline. But I'll tell you as a working artist, lack of freedom can kill a work environment for any creative that sets foot there. So the adjustments that need to be made may be more subtle than we're giving credit here. -
Quote:This description fits my experience as well. I try to avoid repeating sets at all and never, ever repeat archetype/primary/secondary combos.Originally Posted by LordAethar
When I make new characters, I rarely use the same power twice.
Perhaps it is out of some sense of obligation in my own head to represent the exciting abundance of variety and imagination that comics represented to as a child. I enjoy this challenge and embrace it fully.
When I blow the dust off one alt or another, I often discover a new love for sets and combos. Especially once I learn to play them well. -
Quote:Speaking of gloves, as of the current live version, neither of these gloves, including the smaller of the two without the skull are accessible when wearing a trench coat (should you want to piece together a real female gunslinger).Originally Posted by Chyll
Why did we need two gloves (which really look a bit out of place with the rest of the Gunslinger & Prostitute set, btw)? Make one set of gloves and instead make second option for the legs - chaps for instance.
More inaccessibility: when wearing a hat, the female gunslinger face is not available at all. -
Quote:Wow. These are strong words from someone I'd usually consider to be a level-headed and dedicated-to-the-franchise poster.Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I'm not buying the Gunslinger and Prostitute Pack.
To Second Measure and Brian Clayton: Your art department is out of control.
- They don't check in with the patch note process (e.g., beneficial changes to the character creator never got advertised in the patch notes nor advertised as an Issue feature... so, Marketing should be pretty ticked off about that).
- When they interact with the players on the boards, they simply defend the way things are instead of bringing that feedback to the whole team. Complaints of sexism ain't new here. If anyone at Paragon Studios is surprised at this reaction, then there are some serious gaps with your player-communications. And there is just as much anger over the pre-tinting issue as with the sexism issue.
- Jay approaches costuming like a frat boy ("Bunny tails ain't for guys!"). David still thinks he's drawing for 14 year old boys and not for a more diverse audience. Don't know why the women on the art team aren't championing a change the sexism being denounced here. And Positron, who used to have a say over the art department, is still harping on female henches as harems, despite the fact that we already have female 'pets' (Fortunatas, Seers, and the harloty harlequins) and YOU GAVE US A PROSTITUTE COSTUME FOR PLAYERS.
Not happy with this. I hope everyone boycotts this set until there's a real female gunslinger costume added to it.
And as much as one artist to another I'd like to show solidarity to the arts team (it can be hard and at time thankless work doing creative production line stuff), the three criticisms leveled here at the art team and management ring true.
Question is, how do they give their artists room to breath and flow creatively while managing and correcting the current lapses? I personally hate project management (the role, not necessarily the people). But, as things like the purported disappointing sales of consumables indicate, IMO long term, the Paragon Market is going to sink or swim on the merits of the artists they work with and the system's ability to consistently deliver.
The costumes pieces themselves (and the art of the powersets) are their own best advertising with the current F2P model. F2P, preem and VIP players who aren't devotees of the forum and the game see someone running buy with something cool and decide they too want it. Ask about said part or powerset. Get told in game by other players where to find it. Then if able, spend $$$ on points to buy it. Dollars to dimes, long term this is where the majority of their revenue beyond VIP subscriptions is going to come from.
As a result, I'm thinking these deficiencies regarding how art is interfacing with the player feedback, revisions, management of bug reports, etc. needs to be addressed somehow and soon. And again I'm not saying "clamp down!" because that will kill what is truly good in the art department. But something in the workflow does seem off. At least in the results. And as I supported in another post: if it is an issue of time--then take the time you need to do it right and establish a system for farming out some of the raw production work on various sets to contractor artists. Sheesh--you guys are in the bay area. Loads of good artists there looking for part time work without full time commitment. Take advantage of it.
Or hell, establish a sub studio out here in NYC. Tons of fashion forward artists here who could fit the bill as well, working on an as needed basis. -
Quote:To be fair, the halloween pack came out in the midst of this. While there weren't any complete outfits in that pack, it was robust enough IMO to indeed call it a pack on the same scale as these. I've gotten tons of mileage out of it, on all three models, making use of at least 70% or more of the items in the pack.Originally Posted by Fanservice
The last three packs have had nothing but corsets in them. Steampunk, Barbarian, Gunslinger. Corsets, Corsets, Corsets.
Additionally, the CoT pack has come out amidst these releases as well. Despite any disappointments that have been articulated about that pack (lack of funny hats in particular), it was entirely gender neutral.
This is not to say I don't see the trend others are seeing. It is certainly a current trend amongst the "full costume genre packs" that are being released. This trend, though self evident is not the entire kit and caboodle.
Edit to add: I will also remain a firm advocate of the Barbarian pack simply because of the adaptability of three of the female shoulder pieces: the leather arm bands, arm bands with fur and the metallic rings. The metallic rings are especially nice. They take tinting colors very well. I've been able to use them not only as the intended Barbarian arm bangles but also as detailing on: cosmic outfits, classic spandex outfits, and formal wear. The cloth belt and ring from this set is equally adaptable. These detail pieces are examples of how the various bits and baubles from these sets ought to be done. Additionally, the corsets and several of the other details have two skins per geometry. This adds a load more diversity to the set. I wish the saloon girl bustle, for all it's flaws, at least had a second skin that was sans candy stripes on the front bib as I was hoping to maybe adapt it to a Marie Antoinette inspired villain look. But no. Anyways, for the reasons stated above, the Barbarian set gets a thumbs up from me. Scantily clad or not, in many ways, it represents the sort of modularity I prefer and desire from these specifically themed full outfit packs. -
Quote:Hence my point that I think they need to rethink the branding guidelines for these releases. Whatever is happening behind the scenes right now, it is clear that what is offered to each gender model often teases the imagination and desire for what was left out, producing ill feelings.Originally Posted by CapnGeist
Personally, I've wanted those pieces since I started playing this game. If they introduce a Princess set without a Prince set I will go into full on rage mode.
When a concept artist comes to whomever is in charge with some good markups like they did for the "gunslinger set," those in charge need to find a way to get some distance and sort out if indeed they are looking at an equitable spread across the different outfits they are planning to offer or if they are instead, as I suggested in my post you quote, actually looking at two adjacent but distinct costume themes. If it is the latter, don't scrap the concept on either side but instead flesh it out further and do two packs like "Saloon girl/gambler set" and "Wild West Gunslinger set." Both will sell.
And as Chase pointed out, if you guys at Paragon are short of artists, develop a subcontracting program and farm some of this out. Yes it means you may need a new full time production position just to streamline and conform the assets as they come in. But if you truly want to succeed in this microtransaction business model, go whole hog and realize you have now entered the world of Virtual Barbie, take it seriously, and provide consistent, quality goods. -
Quote:I wouldn't be... only because it would be a missed opportunity for some foil jodhpurs!Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
If they make, say, a Retro 1950s Sci Fi costume like they discussed at the Player Summit, and the female version has a skirt instead of pants for our space cadet, I'm fine with that.
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Quote:Or a little of both after making some sound judgement calls regarding the branding. i.e. if you make a princess, also make soft unarmored princely pieces with royal cloak, spotted fur collar, various crowns and doublets for him.Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
Or they could just make the Knight and Gunslinger parts for girls and skip the Saloon Girl and Princess. And I get the feeling that the vast, vast majority of the players would be HAPPY with that. Heck, I'd love it. I can get far more mileage out of chaps or medieval armor than I can out of another set of underwear.
If you make a saloon girl, balance it out with a wild west gambler
But the "gunslinger pack" is as if they made a full "firefighter set" which consisted of a full firefighting outfit for him and a burn victim set for her. The two are thematically adjacent. But they miss two big points: some people with female characters might want to make female firefighters while other people with male characters might want access to all those wonderful icky burn scarred skin textures and scorched clothing items.
My example may be a bit severe, but it is to illustrate what I think is at play here. For me it is not gender inequity in terms of unique looks or skin vs. little skin (though this is still an issue), it is about the implied roles. If you make a pack of "soft" costume pieces that implies roles inside the saloon, spread it across both genders. (i.e. bartender/male gambler.) (Would have loved those arm garters for him BTW.) If you make a rugged pack that implies action out amongst the tumbleweed, again, spread the opportunity evenly across both genders. Hence: "chaps for girls."
Female gunslinger outfit with a breadth of more period references at http://www.westernemporium.com/ladie...st_outfits.php
The trail cook, ranch owner and rancher outfits all say "rugged" to me. Meanwhile, with this pack while we get rugged for him, we got a combination of the saloon girl and soiled dove for her. -
Sadly this thread is just repeating the sentiment that showed up in the VIP beta section of the boards when this pack went onto the test servers. That thread, though dozens of pages long, did not even garner one redname "We hear your criticisms" response.
Nada. Zilch.
In that thread, I asserted that if any pack in recent memory warranted being delayed by a couple weeks to reproduce or retrofit the "male" components (the chaps, jackets and corresponding shorter boots) for female models, it was this pack.
Yes there are myriad other problems including pretinting, lack of holsters, and lack of cowboy hats beyond the one model that came with the i0 base game years ago. Personally I realized that all these points were not all of these battles could be won, as did other posters. So the two that the feedback thread focused on were: no more pretinting of parts please, ever; and "chaps for the female characters" please.
But alas, it was for naught. The pack has gone live exactly as teased via the concept art. Exactly as was put up on test. Feedback in this case null and void.
Personally, I am not too miffed by "gender inequality." Nor am I miffed by skimpy, ****ty outfits for the females as I do have a couple characters who vamp it up as part of their character. But I am miffed by the lack of obvious options in some cases. The Gunslinger pack is currently one of the most egregious offenders thus far. I think the accusations of art direction once again veering out of touch is accurate.
A year and a half ago or so, the multiyear trend was tech skin suit after tech skin suit with chunk armor overlay after chunky armor overlay. There was a wave of rather vocal criticisms and at some point we got a "we hear you" and an indication of correcting course. Even more exciting was Noble Savages assertion that he wanted to see the release of more costume parts that could be mixed and matched. I welcomed this first round of releases all the way through the Barbarian pack--despite the stark gender difference in outfits, I've been able to utilize numerous pieces from all the packs.
But for me the gunslinger pack really drifts into a dead zone: very specific pieces, further constrained by massive pretinting, and lacking in anything rugged for females. Reading the feedback throughout the now multiple threads I get one unifying sense regarding the "chaps for girls" sentiment: most people when they think "Gunslinger" have one thing in mind--a rugged persona. The "saloon girl" (massive pretinting problems aside) has some wonderful design to it but it misses the branding mark of "rugged persona" by about 20 miles. Would it have really taken more than two weeks to retrofit at very least the jacket and pants from the male and huge models to adjust them to work with the female models?
My overall outside perspective: Like most careers in entertainment industries, most likely for the a majority of our dev team, CoX represents a job. But for us members who actively, regularly spend on and participate in the game, CoX represents a passion. The dev and community reps have given lip service to valuing "the community" as we represent a core asset of their property. I understand that CoX and its character creator might no longer be a hardcore passion for those working on the game. A job is a job. And personal and creative interests will inevitably stray, either temporarily or permanently, for any given member of the development team. But when this does happen, for the love of Pete, please pay heed to the feedback that those of us who still are passionately engaged with the character creator provide to you the developers. When such a uniform response goes up, as did in the test forums regarding this pack, it is a sign that something is missing the mark.
You guys did this with the CoT. And the results were wonderful. Jay's revisions of the "first pass" that got such negative feedback did a great job of capturing the feel of the original CoT while sending the new designs sailing up and out of the park.
On paper, the one word branded costume theme "Gunslinger" should have equally been such a home run. But as of yet, you guys (the devs) have balked at doing any revisions on this one. -
Quote:Pretty much all of the above. As a concept this pack should have been a no brainer. The start of it has some good stuff. Good first round of work, but badly needing edits indicated in that seemingly dead-to-the-devs feedback thread.Originally Posted by Kierthos
Frankly, I don't think I'll be buying the Gunslinger pack.
It's not just the pre-tinted parts, although that is a factor.
It's not the dichotomy between the male costume parts, and the female costume parts, although that is a factor. (Aside note: Dear Devs, you have heard of Annie Oakley and Calamity Jane, right?)
It's not the lack of certain costume pieces, although that is a factor.
It's the lack of response to the feedback thread.
I've bought every single costume item up till this point. Was planning on just biting the bullet. Went into game on live and poked around on the couple characters I *might* have used some of these items with an it just confirmed to me: "I don't need this."
So a hearty *golf clap* to the chain of command that let this go to live as such. You're teaching at least one chronic costume purchaser how to show restraint when it comes to impulse buys.
If fixes come along to this pack, post release, including chaps for females & holsters at the very least, I'll go back and pick it up. But as it is now? Good idea. Nice individual parts from a myopic point of view. But taken as a whole within what exists already in the CC and what doesn't: disappointing in its entirety. -
Quote:This. But since it didn't go to test with any such additions or modifications based on repeated feedback like yours here, I guess we are getting it sans gunslinger parts for her. And no holsters for anybody. Sad really. Set had GREAT potential IMO.Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
chaps for women and for the love of god...gun holster belt
PLEASE!
That said, some decent bits and pieces in this set both for him and her. Just lacks the real goods that make it a legitimate gunslinger set IMO. -
I got the exact same thing today. Thought it might be some newb misusing the search tool. Glad I didn't even bother to send a tell.
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I personally have an odd relationship with these arcs. I think they are great, but I don't really like them in terms of CoX.
Expounding a bit: I think First Ward represents some of the best stories and execution of those stories in game...
but,
I don't think I'll run them more than thrice total. The atmosphere and genre-sidesteps that many of the arcs take are quite far afield from the superhero and supervillain content I prefer here. In away, many of the arcs feel like an update to what Striga IMO was originally supposed to represent: an homage to horror comics. But First Ward is with a twist: it's more of an homage to post-apocalyptic horror fiction and film (not counting the Master Midnight exception) rather than many comic sources. A well done homage, but one that really steps too far afield for what I'm after and in terms of gameplay is already well covered by both other MMO and SP titles. -
gobble gobble!
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An emote I'd pay points for: /em shadowbox -- if it included footwork.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6VbsXwKQ2Y
But something a little more light on the feet, like Ali would be ideal. -
Quote:Really? I had no idea that was how this functioned. I've been under the impression that they were one use vouchers, like the kind you can get with incarnate merits.Originally Posted by _eeek_
It's only via forum discussion that I understood that this purchase worked on ALL my characters. Forever.
*grumble* Someone in marketing somewhere is doing a terrible job at clearly conveying information in a manner that is easily accessible. -
Quote:The service is appreciated. But the overall point is a guide page on the forums should not EVER be needed for navigating the store.Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
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I'm sure there are already numerous threads about this BUT this bears repeating again and again to whomever at Paragon or NC Soft is managing the Paragon Store till you guys get this right:
There should be a simple easy to locate button that any visitor to the store can press to see with absolute clarity the very newest releases in order of their release. Yes today the pilgrim hat did miraculously make it to the front page of "Featured"--but it is at the bottom of the page below street justice & enhancement inventory ??? because I can only view "new" items ordered by price, best selling or alphabetical. bwuh??? And then when I click the "New" tab, this is what I see in order on the front page: Valkyrie Smooth Boots, Vanguard Shoulder 1, Vanguard Shoulder 2, Character Server Transfer. And that's sorted by "best selling." We all know none of those items are "new" in any meaningful use of the word.
It's absurd that this aspect of the store interface currently is as poorly executed as it currently is. As a potential and semi-eager customer, I should not have to hunt and peck through a zillion pages or jump out of the store interface, log in to the forums (that still log me out between each visit despite resetting my forum password) and then check the beta boards to see what item might or might not be in the store based on what has been in testing.
To be absolutely clear: there should be a page that, on today in particular, would show a release history from newest to oldest along the lines of:
- Pilgrim Hat - released 11/22
- German Shepherd - released 11/15
- Autumn Path Aura - released 11/8
etc.
C'mon guys. This is marketing 101, not rocket science. -
Quote:To be clear, what you are saying (not in the above post necessarily but in this overall revelation about the resource constraints for asymmetry in general) is simple asymmetric skins are out of the question? -- Like a full body version of the 50/50 face mask, allowing us to simply color one half the body color X and the other color Y?Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Asymmetry is high on my mind, and it's always something I like to include in the earliest sketches for any concept. It makes more sense for some themes than others, but you can definitely expect more asymm. stuff.
At this very panel, we toyed with the idea of a mutated arm. That'd certainly be cool! And our hope with Fire and Ice is to have Lava/Ice arms (as seen in the concept). Just imagine the possibilities when combined with auras. Can't wait. -
Quote:Love both of these ideas. Might want to PM Tunnel Rat with this as what you are requesting sounds to be potentially her territory as much as it would be animation's.Originally Posted by Kirsten
Personally, I'd like to see a "Fireworks" or possibly even "Rainbow" Effect added, the former to Fire blast, and both to Energy Blast, albeit with some sort of variation from the Fire blast version. I've been loving what you've put out so far. Keep up the good work.
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I'm a bit disappointed that the wolf pet became a shepherd instead. A wolf is much more iconic and cool of a pet. At the very least it was more fitting for the two characters I had in mind. Can we eventually expect to see a wolf variety added as well?
I think I'll save my points till this one goes on sale. (3 different canine skins at 600 points for a bundle would have had me. But 500 for a vanity pet I'm not so sure I even have a use for? pass for now.) -
Quote:Uh... Autumn path aura is live. Bought it last Tuesday.Originally Posted by Zombie Man
We can probably expect the Autumnal Path Aura, Pilgrim Hat, and German Shepard non-combat pet tomorrow. See here: German Shepard / Autumnal Path / Pilgrim Hat -- Video.
As far as pre-tinting, see here: The Problems with pre-tinting costume pieces
The chainmail pieces are a brand new leak. So, expect.... soon.
I also noticed that [wolf pet] no longer brings up info. I hope we still get a wolf. The german shepherd is cool and all, but a wolf is much more fitting the two character I have that would utilize this vanity pet.
Edit: scooped like a street legal drag racer. -
Glad to see this is a known issue. I was shocked, SHOCKED when I logged into my mer-hero the other night to find his glowey calf gills had gone dim!
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Under armored tops on live, there is currently a blank texture option for "Chainmail" gloves. Guess we'll be getting a full set of chainmail some time soonish...