Sarrate

[ QUOTE ]
Fire wouldn't be good with Shields because if you have to use GFS in your chain, then you are taking out the mobs that are fueling your damage increase.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm? GFS is single target. Are you confusing it with FSC?

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going for Shivans in Bloody Bay, for example, I can see this would be a real problem.
That involves fighting AI mobs outside, so its hardly a crazy idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I do Shivan runs, the only things I fight are the turrets, and I don't remember them ever holding me. (If you run to the meteorites fast enough, you can get the shard and be running away before the Shivans spawn / attack you. Just did it recently on a Corruptor with no issue. This is how I've always done it, too.)

[ QUOTE ]
Especially when you consider that the "offensive" part of the power is a To Hit debuff, which is really defensive itself, ie its keeping you marginally safer rather than upping your damage in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you follow that logic, Darkest Night is fully defensive and shouldn't detoggle. Ditto for Chilling Embrace and Ice Storm. The difference is that it is possible* for those debuffs to increase the survivability of others if the target is attacking someone else.

* I realize this applies to the other toggles more than RttC (it taunts mobs to attack you, and players likely won't stand in it to stay debuffed), but they all fall into the 'debuff to increase survivability' category.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Quixotik that something's wrong here - a power that's 90% defensive and 10% offensive, AND one of the main survival tools for a set should maybe be excepted from this rule and shouldn't detoggle.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're in a PvP zone fighting against mobs, then yes, it is a hindrance. If you're in PvP fighting a player, not so much since they kite. In PvE, it almost never happens, so it's no issue whatsoever.

Honestly, I consider it a minor inconvenience because fighting NPCs inside a PvP zone is a pretty rare activity. If the options were to keep it as is or remove the tohit debuff and make it not detoggle, I'd keep it as is. (Again, the debuff is extra threat in PvE which WP needs and increased survivability - esp if you build for defense.)


[edit: The thing about special cases is it opens Pandora's Box; once it's open, there's no going back. Anyone who'd support the detoggle removal should think about that hard.]

We can't tell you concretely how much it'd help you. To know that, we'd need to know:

*) Accuracy in your powers (in case you're using non-max lvl ToD)
*) Global Accuracy
*) Any misc tohit you have (Invincibility, for example)

From there it'd be easy to generate a table of tohit chances for enemies of varying levels. (It would further modified by enemy defense and tohit debuffs, of course.)

If you want to say the pros don't outweigh the cons (in PvP), that I'd grant you. Your last [edit: post] seemed to be (and I may have been reading too much into it) saying the devs either nerfed it or that it wasn't working as intended. That's all I was trying to clear up.

In PvE, I think the tohit debuff outweighs the detoggle aspect as Tankers almost never get mezzed. Also, as you powergame WP, the tohit debuff becomes more and more influential. It's not as true in PvP due to diminishing returns.

If the devs can only have one flag for RttC (offensive or not) and not be PvP or PvE specific, I'd prefer they keep it as is. In PvE the tohit debuff can make an impact, adds additional threat, and opens another avenue for IO slotting (though few would ever utilize it). PvE more often used, too. (I'm biased too, since I rarely PvP and have a tweaked build.)

It is neither.

WP's other toggles will never be detoggled except when you run out of endurance or shut them off. That is because none of these toggles are offensive. Likewise, nothing in Invuln will be detoggled by a mez. The examples you cite (Integration) also it not an offensive toggle, and will never be shut off. (Keep in mind that everything except the +status resistance (or protection in PvE) aspect of toggles will suppress when you get mezzed.)

Now compare RttC to Blazing Aura, Mud Pots, Icicles, Chilling Embrace, or Against All Odds (haven't tested this myself, but it should be offensive). All of those will will detoggle because they negatively effect the enemy. This isn't AT specific, either. Steamy Mist won't detoggle, but Choking Cloud will.

You may argue that RttC's 'offensive' flag may be suspect, but it's not a nerf (all offensive toggles are flagged this way) or bugged (again, it's specifically flagged as an offensive toggle). I agree that a 3.5% tohit debuff is hardly a consideration for being detoggled (against players who don't want to sit still for the tohit debuff to linger anyways), but I can't say their method is biased against RttC or WP specifically.

RttC always gets drop when you get mezzed, it works that way in PvP too. To test it, shut off IW and fight a group of enemies that have crowd control. (Death Mages in PI work just fine for this.) Every time you get hit, RttC will drop, while your other toggles will. This is because it's labeled as an 'offensive toggle,' just like Radiation Infection or Enervating Field is.

What you're seeing isn't RttC (which hasn't changed), but that the mechanics in PvP are completely different than they are in PvE. In PvP there is no such thing as status protection (prevents mezzes completely); instead everything offers status resistance (reduces the duration of mezzes). Since the mezzes still land on you, even if only for a fraction of a second, it will drop any offensive toggle, which RttC is.

Again, RttC was not nerfed, mechanics in PvP zones are just different than PvE. (For the record, I think RttC's "offensive" label is extreme. A 3.5% tohit debuff for ~1s isn't even in the same league as things like Radiation Infection and Enervating Field. I don't mind it dropping in PvE, but in PvP? Different story. Oh, and it's likely it's either offensive toggle or not, probably can't be flagged differently for PvE and PvP.)

Voila!

[ QUOTE ]
Self:

* Regeneration 0.20000 Melee_Ones for 120s If on a PvP map
Effect does not stack from same caster

Target:

* 0.67000 Melee_Heal Heal (20% chance) If NOT on a PvP map [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]

* Endurance 0.07500 Melee_Ones (20% chance) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think she was using the Power Analyzer Mk III temp power. You can buy it in the Auction House if its up for sale.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I missed the question before, but that's exactly what I was using. (MkIII is important, too, since it's the only one that can analyze up to lvl54s.) The temp itself was pretty cheap to buy, but when I "buy it now"ed the required salvage, it cost me ~400k.

(Be patient and let bids sit when testing is at stake? Never!)


[edit: Btw, I'd use it before the fight to check stats, not during. I think monitoring my own stats are far more vital. As an alternative, you can also grab Culex's Enemy Resistance Spreadsheet so you don't have to burn the money on a temp power. ]

Hah! When I said Fire Blast, I meant Blaster Fire Blast, not the power. Just tested, Pyre/Fire Blast has a terminating dot too, as I suspected it would.

RoF's dot always lands for full value. Most dots do (see Midnight's Grasp, Incinerate, etc). The only dots I know of that are xx% per tick are Fire Melee, Spines, and likely Fire Blast, Thorns.

If you were having end issues before, wouldn't adding an end inefficient attack not be a wise decision to make? If end issues are under control it makes sense, of course.

[ QUOTE ]
Dark has toggles that mimic a lot of what rad does, especiallly with tar patch down. The only thing is no -defense but there are very few AV's I have ever had problems hitting. Lingering rad can be perma but during periods of howling twilight, which is equal to lingering rad, dark can still stack twilight grasps so that's even MORE -regen than rad.

Not saying dark is better just saying that rad certainly doesn't beat it up and take its lunch money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just note that if you're spamming TG, then you're not attacking. When you're not attacking, you're possibly losing more dps than what is gained by the -regen from your TG (Fluffy notwithstanding).

To be fair, I did forget is that Tar Patch can be stacked with enough recharge.


Hmm.... I am curious to see how much of a difference there is between Dark and Rad against AVs. I'll try to craft a spreadsheet for this later.

[ QUOTE ]
Accelerate Metabolism?

[/ QUOTE ]

It'd only get once chance to proc every time you clicked the power. Even if it was perma, that'd be one chance to proc every 2 minutes. Pretty much useless, if you ask me.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If each DoT has an 80% chance, and the first failure cancels the rest, wouldn't it look like this?

BaseDamage + DotDamage*0.8 + DotDamage*0.8^2 + ... + DotDamage*0.8^NumTicks

[/ QUOTE ]

My algebra sort of sucks, I would go the long way and prepare a lookup table for this... where is Arcanaville when you need her? I know there is a quick way to calculate this, not sure if Sarrate's is the right one but due to current brain deadness I am willing to incline that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probability is something I tend to fumble with, so Werner's method may be the correct one. Intuitively it makes more sense to me, too.

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>My method:
# ticks mult mult*TotalDot
3 ticks 0.512 6.8352 (Scorch)
4 ticks 0.4096 7.29088 (Fire Sword)
5 ticks 0.32768 14.58176 (GFS)

Werner's method*:
# ticks mult mult*DotTick
3 ticks 1.952 8.6864 (Scorch)
4 ticks 2.3616 10.50912 (Fire Sword)
5 ticks 2.68928 23.934592 (GFS)

MID's method (wrong):
#ticks 0.8*TotalDot
3 ticks 10.68 (Scorch)
4 ticks 14.24 (Fire Sword)
5 ticks 35.6 (GFS)</pre><hr />

Second opinion?


* Note, I modified Werner's from this:
BaseDamage + DotDamage*0.8 + DotDamage*0.8^2 + ... + DotDamage*0.8^NumTicks

To This:
BaseDamage + DotDamage*(0.8 + 0.8^2 + ... + 0.8^n)

[ QUOTE ]
But then again, imagine tanking Lord Recluse, and all you do is spam SL... (don't even know if that is possible)

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on how you handle the fight, SL may not be very effective. As long as the Orange Tower is up, he'll have capped def (~177%) which will keep your tohit floored. If you anchor a toggle debuff on him to prevent Bane spawns, you just won't hit him very often.

If you don't anchor a debuff on him to stop the Bane spawning, then you'll have something to use as fuel, but that's another target hitting you and possibly debuffing your def.

The other option is to drag him to a tower that isn't being attacked and use that as fuel. The only catch to that is you'd have to coax him over there, taking more ranged shots than usual.


Again, all depends on your tactics.

Here's how I'd compare /Dark and /Rad:

/Dark is far more survivable
/Rad is far more offensive

Solo, Dark's tools to keep itself alive are just more available and powerful. Its heal is bigger, it has persistent debuffs that stay in effect when mezzed, it has a pet, and it has a large cone Fear and st hold. It is also better at keeping teams alive due to its controls / strong heal / AoE stun. Against AVs it packs enormous -damage, which is far less resisted than -tohit (which Dark still has enough of to make a significant impact).

Its offensive tools are weaker - it has Tar Patch (permable, but depending on how much rech you have, it may not be available for all fights, also AVs can run out of it, it is -30% though) and a smattering of -regen (Howling Twilight with low uptime, and minor regen debuffs from TG/DS).


Rad, on the other hand, is weaker in the survivability aspect. It has two potent toggles and a nice click debuff, but their inherent problem is that they are... well, toggles. If the target dies, you lose their benefit. If the targets aren't clumped up, you don't get the benefit. If you get mezzed, you lose their benefit (except LR) until you can get them up again. It also has Choking Cloud, but the Corruptor version is the worst of all 3 ATs that have it (Def, Con, Cor) due to very short duration. The last tool is EM Pulse, which is very nice when things get out of hand. The biggest drawback is its recharge and recovery debuff.

Offensively, it is superb. Its offensive toggles are ready for every spawn. (To be fair, toggles can be problematic offensively when you get mezzed too.) Lingering Radiation is much stronger than anything Dark has to offer. If desired, EM Pulse can be used to stack with it. What hasn't been mentioned yet is that Rad has AM, which offers +dmg, +rech, and +recov, allowing you and your team to deal more damage, quicker, and for longer periods of time.


If you're on teams with survivability isssues, /Dark will make a larger impact (AVs included). If you're on a team where survivability is covered, /Rad will be a bigger asset (AVs especially). That's not to say either is terrible in the other situation, mind you - but if you run in teams that tend to be pretty optimized, Rad will be better.

All just my humble opinion, of course. Take it with a little grain of salt, as my villain experience is lacking compared to Hero. (I'm comparing my Dark/Rad/Dark Defender against my Dark/Rad/Soul Corruptor. I understand Dark's values are lower on a Corruptor.)

Another franken-slotting approach:

2 Nucs
2 Golgis
1 Dmg/Rech (lvl50)
1 Heal/Rech (lvl50)

Acc: 66.6%
Dmg: 90.17%
Heal: 90.17%
End: 66.6%
Rech: 53%

As mentioned, there are so many different ways to slot it. Another consideration is set bonuses. The last time I was trying to make a DM build (for my DM/Invuln) I put in 4 Kin Combats and I think a Acc/Heal and a Heal in the remaining two slots; the 3.75% s/l def took priority over maximizing SL.

(Never did assemble the build though. I was never happy with it because it either had to drop ToF [edit: or] SM.)

[ QUOTE ]
It's the diffence between spouting formula and understanding what that formula means in practical application.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, for the sake of argument, I decided to perform a test with my WP/Fire to see how accurate I am. He has between 90% and 120% recharge in all his attacks, which includes ~30% global rech. All attacks are 95.57% dmg enhancement except Scorch (96.18%). No damage procs.

I calculated the Fire DoTs to be 0.8^NumTicks * TotalDoTDamage. So Scorch would be (0.8^3)*(3*4.45) = 0.512 * 13.35 = 6.8352 dmg. Fire Sword's DoT was 7.29088 and GFS was 14.58176. So, total damage for the attacks is:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> ACT DMG DMG(base)
Scorch 1.188 86.72 44.21
F Sword 1.584 129.10 66.01
Incin 1.848 217.47 111.2
GFS 2.508 240.82 123.14</pre><hr />

So, using the chain Incin -&gt; GFS -&gt; Scorch -&gt; FS -&gt; Scorch, that comes out to 760.84 dmg over 8.32s, or ~91.49 dps. Factor in a 95% miss rate, that drops to 86.92 dps. That's just plain vanilla damage, and from my tests against lvl50 AVs, that seems right, since I can't kill them.

Now let's add Build Up, mine recharges in 47.8s, but let's add 2s for the activation time (1.32) and a little extra for finishing off already animating attacks. So it's uptime is ~20%, giving us a final damage boost of ~16%. So dmg numbers are now:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> ACT DMG
Scorch 1.188 93.82
F Sword 1.584 139.70
Incin 1.848 235.34
GFS 2.508 260.60

TOTAL 8.32 823.29</pre><hr />

That's 99 dps before missing, and ~94.05 dps after. Again, this matches my tests well. I can push a lvl50 AV (94.23 hp/sec) down a little, but they're certainly not killable. I think the lowest I got one was 92% before he had a regen tick to 97%+. So my ability to kill them depends on misses and where in my chain BU decides to surface. For all intents and purposes, unkillable without spending hours trying.

Now let's throw in inspirations for +100% dmg:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> ACT DMG
Scorch 1.188 138.03
F Sword 1.584 205.71
Incin 1.848 346.54
GFS 2.508 383.74

TOTAL 8.32 1212.05

DPS = 145.75 (no misses)
DPS = 138.46 (misses)</pre><hr />

Let's add one more addition, say it takes 1.5s to eat those 4 insps every minute, that'd drop the DPS down by another 2.5%:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>DPS = 135 (misses, 1.5s pause per min)</pre><hr />

So, that ends up being a net DPS of ~40.79. That'd take roughly 11.5 minutes to kill an AV. Of course, that's impossible using small reds, since you'd only have room for 5 minutes worth. So, over the course of 5 minutes, my calculations say I could bring an AV down to roughly 57% health.

Since these calculations are for a lvl50 non resisting AV, I chose Romulus (no resistance at all).

Results (lots of screenshots for the interim)
Screenshot 1 - Start of the test
Screenshot 2
Screenshot 3
Screenshot 4
Screenshot 5
Screenshot 6
Screenshot 7
Screenshot 8
Screenshot 9
Screenshot 10 - End of the test

I don't think I'd consider my understanding of the formula in practical applications to be suspect.

[ QUOTE ]
Or to put it another way, you don't disprove a supposition by disproving the logic, unless you have an agenda. You disprove a supposition (as much as a supposition can be disproved) by failing to come up with logic (either on your own or someone else's) that proves it in your mind. You're more then intelligent enough to see what I've written, fiddle around with it and come up with something fairly close to what I have. I bet you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only agenda I have is accurate information, whether I'm at fault or someone else is. It's why I went out of my way last night to test it. It was a way to prove to myself that I'm not in error. If I'm wrong, I have no problems admitting or saying I'm wrong. If what I'm basing my calculations on (in this case ArcanaTime) is wrong, then I'm willing to say that. I've seen nothing that does either of those things.

(Didn't post last night since I got wrapped up in other things, like my first LRSF. Nifty!)

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. - In the Stone Melee example, you don't count the first attack's animation time as that's the start of the chain at the start of the fight. If you want to include it (as part of a midfight chain) then you simply lop off the end attack and/or scramble the attack sequence around to fit and you'll come up with similar numbers each time. The main goal is to cram as many high DPS attacks as you can between the recharge time of your longest recharging power (usually your heaviest hitter). Most players do this intuitively by hitting the power that pops up first in their attack chain (assuming they've chosen the correct powers to use). Practical application versus theory crafting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to include that attack. You use it at the start of the fight, but it's still time spent attacking. Besides, in this discussion (AVs) the player will be using Seismic Smash mid fight... a lot.

Attack chains are generally considered static, ie: repeated ad nausem without change (barring things like DP, etc). If you want to calculate a dynamic chain, there's really no way to do it without a) crunching out 60s or so worth of time or b) creating a calculator (like Starsman).

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding Fire Melee: Are you saying that the total damage is wrong or that just the initial applied damage is wrong as its spread out over the length of the DoT?

If the latter, then I don't think it matters as the damage is still applied and your attack chain isn't waiting for the DoT to end (or do Fire Melee DoTs not stack?).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying MIDs is averaging the damage wrong. This is what its doing:

FinalDamage = BaseDamage + (TotalDotDamage * 0.8)

That is incorrect, because the dot isn't 80% chance for all of it, it's 80% per tick. It could stop after 3 ticks, or 2, or 1. In other words, it's giving you inflated damage numbers. As mentioned above, the proper way to do it is:

FinalDamage = BaseDamage + (TotalDotDamage * (0.8^NumTicks))

For your convenience, I included the base damage of all Fire Melee's st attacks in my first chart that uses the correct formula for the dots.

Fire Melee dots stack just fine.


--edit--
[ QUOTE ]
So when I see things like Inv/SS can't solo most AVs because they only have two powers with DPA above the AV's regen rates it irritates me ... especially when I've solo'd the majority of AVs in this game post ED and pre-IO up through I8 (which according to you is impossible) on my Inv/SS Tanker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to mention that the only time I said SS couldn't solo an AV due to DPA was specifically addressing Lord Recluse who has 50% smashing resistance. A SS Tanker can't solo him, just like most Scrappers can't solo Dominatrix (50% res to all).

[edit (again): Minor correction. Dominatrix doesn't have any res to psi or toxic. Fat lot of good that does, though, since no Scrapper set deals psi and the only toxic available is Spines, which has the lowest st of all Scrapper sets.]

[ QUOTE ]
Sigh ... do you really need to prove me wrong that badly? Is it a driving force for you or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't care to prove you, or anyone else wrong. What I care about is the accuracy of the information given. It could be an error on my part (which happened recently with respect to AV regen vs regen debuffs) or on the other's. When incorrect information is posted and not contested (by myself or otherwise), then someone who doesn't know better will read it and base future decisions on it. Not only that, but they may try to help/correct others with incorrect information. I want the source information to be correct to avoid misinformation later down the line. (The first thing I thought of when I found out I was mistaken about AV regen vs regen debuffs was pretty much "Crap! I wonder how many people were using my information as being correct.")

In this case, your formula(s) are inaccurate and I was correcting them.

[ QUOTE ]
Your confusion is that I listed the powers I'm using in the chain but not the chain sequence itself.

Example:

Stone Melee: SS + SM + HM + SF + HB + HM + SM + 1.25 (for ArcanaTime) = 11.06s

Total Damage: 624.7

DPS = (624.7 / 11.06) * 2 (for 100% enhanced damage) = 112.97 (rounded up to the nearest hundredth)

I was 1.5 DPS off (shorted) in my original post but I was doing it in my head so give me a break

[/ QUOTE ]

Presenting what attacks are used, but not their exact sequence isn't helpful at all to anyone trying to recreate them. The reason I did the calculations above is because I already had one chain done (Ice Melee, where this started) and I saw you didn't account for ArcanaTime.

I then just picked one at random (Stone Melee) and used it as an example. At that point, I had two points of reference that were within two hundreths of the dps you posted. I continued to go through your chains to see if either a) they were freak coincidences or b) results that carried through all your results.

It just happened to be (b). Having four of your listings within hundreths of a second are what made me believe that they were a simple sequence. (SS being the only one that really departed from this pattern.)

[ QUOTE ]
1) ArcanaTime can be off by a lot in itself as it doesn't take into account server lag which can at times be measured in multiple seconds (Arc may have addressed this in his/her original post as a caveat, I can't remember).

[/ QUOTE ]

No, lag isn't a factor because queued attacks are already at the server. As soon as ArcanaTime is over, they'll fire.

[ QUOTE ]
2) The above is in reference to having each attack queued and never interrupting. As I pointed out, various things can interrupt the attack chain (insp popping, activating BU or other similar power, lag, player missing a Q after beating on the same mob for 5+ minutes, etc ...). This is one of the reasons I tried to err on the low side while giving a realistic environment (in this case, the enhancements needed) to solo an AV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the thing, you didn't lowball your estimates, you highballed them, and did the math wrong. The actual Stone Melee chain you used:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> DMG ACT ACT(AT)
Seismic Smash 158.38 1.5 1.716
Stone Mallet 72.96 1.61 1.848
Heavy Mallet 101.43 1.63 1.848
Stone Fist 44.49 0.83 1.056
Hurl Boulder 72.96 2.5 2.64
Heavy Mallet 101.43 1.61 1.848
Stone Mallet 72.96 1.63 1.848
Delay - 1.25 -
TOTAL 624.61 12.56 12.804

DPS = (624.61 * 2) / 12.56 = 99.46
DPS(AT) = (624.61 * 2) / 12.804 = 97.56</pre><hr />

You said the chain took 11.06s, following your math it should have taken 12.56s. That inflated your numbers. Second, even with the correct numbers, it's still faster than it should be.

[ QUOTE ]
ArcanaTime is in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where? I did almost all your sets, and in almost all of them there is no delay at all:

[ QUOTE ]
War Mace - 113.64 DPS (3.33/s end) - Pulv + JB + Clob + Shatter

[/ QUOTE ]
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>War Mace DMG ACT ACT(AT)
Pulverize 72.96 1.5 1.716
Jaw Breaker 87.2 1.83 1.98
Clobber 129.91 1.23 1.452
Shatter 101.43 2.33 2.508
TOTAL 391.5 6.89 7.656

DPS = (391.5 * 2) / 6.89 = 113.64
DPS(AT) = (391.5 * 2) / 7.656 = 102.27</pre><hr />

[ QUOTE ]
Energy Melee - 112.05 DPS (2.5/s end) - Barrage + BS + ET + FS

[/ QUOTE ]
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Energy Melee DMG ACT ACT(AT)
Barrage 58.72 1.33 1.584
Bone Smasher 72.96 1.5 1.716
Total Focus 158.38 3.3 3.432
Energy Transfer 202.87 2.67 2.904
TOTAL 492.93 8.8 9.636

DPS = (492.93 * 2) / 8.8 = 112.03
DPS(AT) = (492.93 * 2) / 9.636 = 102.31</pre><hr />

[ QUOTE ]
Stone Melee* - 111.6 DPS (3.96/s end) - SF + SM + HM + SS + HB

[/ QUOTE ]
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Stone Melee DMG ACT ACT(AT)
Stone Fist 44.49 0.83 1.056
Stone Mallet 72.96 1.61 1.848
Heavy Mallet 101.43 1.63 1.848
Seismic Smash 158.38 1.5 1.716
Hurl Boulder 72.96 2.5 2.64
TOTAL 450.22 8.07 9.108

DPS = (450.22 * 2) / 8.07 = 111.58
DPS(AT) = (450.22 * 2) / 9.108 = 98.86</pre><hr />

[ QUOTE ]
Dark Melee* - 105.55 DPS (3.03/s end) - SP + Smite + SL + MG

[/ QUOTE ]
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Dark Melee DMG ACT ACT(AT)
Shadow Punch 37.37 0.83 1.056
Smite 58.73 0.97 1.188
Siphon Life 87.2 1.93 2.112
M. Grasp 122.77 2.07 2.244
TOTAL 306.07 5.8 6.6

DPS = (306.07 * 2) / 5.8 = 105.54
DPS(AT) = (306.07 * 2) / 6.6 = 92.75</pre><hr />

[ QUOTE ]
Ice Melee - 84.47 DPS (2.76/s end) - IS + Frost + FT + GIS

[/ QUOTE ]
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Ice Melee DMG ACT ACT(AT)
Ice Sword 58.72 1.33 1.584
Frost 72.06 2.27 2.508
Frozen Touch 74.76 1 1.188
G. Ice Sword 87.2 2.33 2.508
TOTAL 292.74 6.93 7.788

DPS = (292.74 * 2) / 6.93 = 84.48
DPS(AT) = (292.74 * 2) / 7.788 = 75.18</pre><hr />

Those are just adding up the damage and cast times of all the powers and doing division. There is no ArcanaTime in there at all. (I've added the modified ACT(AT) column and DPS(AT) to accounts for them.)

That leaves Fire Melee (ignored because of the dots), Battle Axe, and Super Strength.

[ QUOTE ]
Battle Axe - 109.9 DPS (3.22/s end) - Chop + Gash + Swoop + Cleave

[/ QUOTE ]
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Battle Axe DMG ACT ACT(AT)
Chop 72.96 1.33 1.584
Gash 87.2 1.33 1.584
Swoop 101.43 1.83 1.98
Cleave 122.79 2.33 2.508
TOTAL 384.38 6.82 7.656

DPS = (384.38 * 2) / 6.82 = 112.72
DPS(AT) = (384.38 * 2) / 7.656 = 100.41</pre><hr />

This works out is if you add a 0.175s delay to the chain. That, by the way, doesn't even cover the increase due to ArcanaTime on the first power, let alone the entire chain.

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Let's take Super Strength ... the longest recharge time in an SS chain is KO Blow (25 seconds). Half of that (for 100% recharge) is 12.5 seconds. So from KO Blow to KO Blow you have 12.5 seconds to fill up with the rest of the chain. That make sense so far?

In the second example I put together the chain lasts 10.9 seconds (animation times strung together of all powers). The difference is my nod to ArcanaTime (the 1.25 in the equation). It's a little longer for SS since the chain lasts longer and yes it's not precisely exact, it was just a guestimate of ArcanaTime.

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I have absolutely no idea what chain you used, and I'm not inclined to work it out at this time. If you want to provide the specific chain you used, I'll check it, though.

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So I don't think my formula is wrong as a rough baseline measure unless you can point out something I really missed

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As I said, you missed ArcanaTime, and not by a little.

[edit: As I pointed out in my other post, your recharge times don't make sense, either. The example I gave was most certainly above 100% recharge.]

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Sarrate: This is my problem with DPA ... it doesn't seem to correctly reflect an attack chain. If you look at my post above you'll see I took the same attack chain but came out with a slightly higher number. If given more recharge, Build Up, IO damage bonus, IO procs and throw in an APP power (Fire Blast) it exceeds the threshold for a baseline AV's regen.

Having said that, it would still take an Ice Melee with no other sources of damage, quite a long time to solo said AV (as it can't exceed it by *that* much).

So it's possible to solo an AV on an Ice Melee Tanker (say Invuln/Ice for instance) .... just a really bored Ice Melee Tanker

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ArcanaTime. :P

-edit-

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(that's the 1.25 seconds within each attack chain buffer I put in).

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Huh? I did the exact math for your Stone Melee [chain] and there was no buffer put in at all.

[edit 2: Just did your Battle Axe chain, no buffer there either.]

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Fire Melee - 123.19 DPS (2.48/s end) - FS + Insin + GFS
War Mace - 113.64 DPS (3.33/s end) - Pulv + JB + Clob + Shatter
Energy Melee - 112.05 DPS (2.5/s end) - Barrage + BS + ET + FS
Stone Melee* - 111.6 DPS (3.96/s end) - SF + SM + HM + SS + HB
Battle Axe - 109.9 DPS (3.22/s end) - Chop + Gash + Swoop + Cleave
Dark Melee* - 105.55 DPS (3.03/s end) - SP + Smite + SL + MG
Super Strength** - 86.47 DPS (3.60/s end) - HM + KOB + Hurl + Punch
Ice Melee - 84.47 DPS (2.76/s end) - IS + Frost + FT + GIS

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Hate to tell you this, Kruunch, but your numbers are wrong. There's one very important calculation that you're not taking into account: ArcanaTime. It's basically taking into account how long it takes the server to get done with one attack and be able to process the next. In case you don't want to go through her entire post, here is just the formula:

FinalCastTime = (RoundUp( CastTime / 0.132 ) + 1) * 0.132

So, to use Stone Fist as an example:

FinalCastTime = (RoundUp( 0.83 / 0.132 ) + 1) * 0.132
FinalCastTime = (RoundUp( 6.287878... ) + 1) * 0.132
FinalCastTime = ( 7 + 1) * 0.132
FinalCastTime = 8 * 0.132
FinalCastTime = 1.056

You'd have to do this (individually) for every attack, too. So, all of Stone Melee's cast times would be:

Stone Fist: 1.056 (0.83)
Stone Mallet: 1.848 (1.61)
Heavy Mallet: 1.848 (1.63)
Seismic Smash: 1.716 (1.5)
Hurl Boulder: 2.64 (2.5)

That'd increase the chain's activation time from 8.07 to 9.108 and change the DPS from 111.58 dps to 98.86 dps. (Likewise, EPS would drop to 3.31eps to 2.93eps.)

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I've used include enhancements to damage (100%), recharge (100%) and endurance (100%).

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I'm curious how you came up with 100% recharge in your chains, considering some of them require far more than 100% recharge to obtain. Your Fire Melee chain (FS-Incin-GFS) using your unmodified cast time numbers would require +173% rech in Incin, and +300% rech in GFS. Modified with ArcanaTime, those numbers would be +144% rech in Incin and +249% rech in GFS.

(On that note, I'm guessing you're getting invalid numbers for Fire Melee since you're using MIDs. Last I checked, it averaged out the dot number to be 80% the total dot. That is incorrect. Fire Melee dots aren't 80% chance to get the whole thing, it's an 80% chance per tick. The dots can last anywhere between 0 and 4 ticks depending on the attack. I'd have to double check the math, but Scorch would only be 51.2% of the total dot damage, Fire Sword's would be 40.96% of the total dot damage, and GFS's would be 40.96% of the total dot damage.)

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Formula for determining an attack chain: Total Animation Time of Chain = (Longest Recharge in Chain / 2) - 1.25

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Could you explain this? I have no idea what it is / what it's used for.

When in doubt, check your Combat Attributes. It'll show up there.

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One of the misleading points that I see brought up is that "soandso set only has XXX amount of powers over the DPA threshold needed to bring down an AV". While this is technically correct, powers that come in at just under that threshold still apply to the attack chain *if* the total of that attack chain is still over the regen threshold of the AV in question (and all other points still apply).

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Okay, let's not beat around the bush, that was me. :P The thing is, the rest of the set isn't really even close to matching an AV's regen. I admit, that part I didn't say, but I had crunched it out. I probably should have said "Ice only has 1 power above AV regen, and nothing else even close," then that would've covered all bases, alas.

At any rate, here are the DPA of Ice Melee:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> DPA
FF 46
IS 72.29
Frost 56.03
FT 122.71
GIS 67.8
FA 54.89</pre><hr />

It has one attack above AV regen, then the next closest is 20 dps short. That's not even in the same ballpark. For kicks and giggles, I created an (essentially unobtainable) chain just to see how much DPS Ice Melee could deal.

FT - IS - GIS
~81.5 DPS

Requirements
FT: +291% rech
IS: +46.6% rech
GIS: +260.8% rech

If you had full rech enhancement (95%) in FT, that'd still require 196% global recharge to obtain. Even with insane requirements like that, it's still over 10 dps shy of simply matching AV regen, not to mention being above it by a significant degree to kill it before the end of the week. (Hmm, if you average out BU being up every 23s, then the chain manages to pull about 96 dps. Keep in mind this chain is for all intents and purposes, impossible to make.)

FT - IS - GIS - Frost
73.3 DPS

Requirements
FT: +142% rech
IS: +0% rech
GIS: +89% rech
Frost: +108% rech

That's much more reasonable to obtain, but it will bleed extra endurance due to using a cone. Factoring in BU (up every 37.19s, minimal global rech required for the chain) that's 84.48 dps. Still 10 dps short of just matching AV regen.

(I just quickly crunched out FT/IS/GIS/FF, and it does nearly identical dps to the above, despite including FF, which is the worst DPA of the set. It's compensated by a shorter animation that allows FT to be used again sooner.)

The best thing Ice could do (that I can see) is pair it with a damage heavy primary and proc the living hell out of it.

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2.14 Stone Melee
1.98 War Mace
1.97 Energy Melee
1.94 Super Strength
1.90 Battle Axe
1.87 Dark Melee
1.84 Fiery Melee
1.75 Dual Blades

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Is that before or after damage buffs are included? Reason I ask is that the highest on your list (Stone Melee) comes out to ~95.20 DPS. That's around 1-2 dps more than an AV's regen rate. If that's after damage buffs (slots, BU, etc)...

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I have heard of even Ice Melee users soloing AVs with the right build.

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I'd have to see that to believe it. Ice Melee only has a single attack that has a slotted DPA higher than an AV's regen rate (FT - ~122 DPA). I can't begin to fathom how someone would make up that big of a difference. Heavily saturated in procs, maybe?

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What I'm trying to note is that there are some samples that are too short to hold any true value. 10s is one such extremely short sample.

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I'm saying that if you have a complete chain, then 10s is a perfectly acceptable sample size.

Don't interpret that as it being applicable to everyone for all circumstances. For DPS tests (such as AV soloing) it works just fine. I can tell you that people who number crunch Scrapper DPS against AVs certainly don't crunch out 60s worth of numbers.

At the level of recharge some of those chains use (such as the DM one), even long recharge powers like Seismic Smash and KO Blow would recycle in under 10s (6.41s and 8.01s respectively).

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Do the same analysis with 25 seconds and you get a more accurate sample to average your DPS from.

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If you're just repeating a chain, then you'll get identical results as just doing the chain. Even something like Rage's downtime can be averaged (110s up / 120s duration = the chain operating at roughly 91.67% - that's 10s of stacking to eliminate the def debuff).

(The longer effects such as Rage would be more accurate if crunched out, but at the point it's about practicality. You can get close enough with just the chain and modifying it. Again, that's how I've seen other Scrappers doing it, and the results speak for themselves, in my opinion.)