Sandolphan

*points up-thread to DEEBS*

Think she said "doodie".

Maybe when they introduce new commands.

At Sunday's CoP, we had ten cycles of barrier down/respawns and I had a good opportunity to time the cycles.

The respawn timer seems to be set around 1min30secs (90 secs).

The average take-down time on the spawns was about 45 secs. This would explain the apparent 45ish-second downtime on the shield people report (I had timed around 30 secs on some of our early runs).

There was some fluctuation as I was trying to run a dark corr and keep track of the timing too, not to mention my laggy framerate. I'd be interested if anyone else can confirm or improve upon my observations.

I generally do a manual count to 20...somewhere in the next 5 seconds I throw on the HT and send a warning about the pending respawn (so the tank can get ready to grab the them).

How about some details?

Team composition (AT's, powersets, numbers)?
General build information (what degree of io-set'ing and bonuses?)
Any insight into specific tactics employed?
How quickly/smoothly did each of the fight phases go?
Where were the difficult spots?

Thanks!

A good synthesis of the guide info.

Yeah could be, I've been on a lot recently and they blur together.

To answer some points:

Stormer was brought to 50% on one of your pug raids. The problem is he goes back to 100% consistently before the shield can be dropped again, even with -regen debuff timing. His interference with the raid I believe is the most likely cause of not being as efficient dropping the shield in a timely fashion (as is done regularly on the red AV). Once the bug is fixed, I think the issue should be resolved.

A 'generic build' as I've used it is one that has few if any set bonuses to boost survivability and performance (power recharge, soft-capped defenses, increased regeneration, etc). Generic builds are SO-only or generic-IO-only; ie what the devs have stated they build the game difficulty around.

Angels and friends have run mostly public pug raids and are the usual I've been on; however Angels have also several SG and invite-only CoPs to get badging done for both players and supergroup badges. That's what I meant by non-pug trials. The majority of CoP runs I've attended/seen have been public pugs though and that would be preferred.

I was monitoring recycle times on the AV shield against the stormer (to time my Howling Twilight through the shield up if possible). Bringing the shield down took between 35 (best) and 50 secs normally (a couple were longer). Faster cube-mob kill times would be essential to getting the stormer down.

Player ability can only go so far on kill speed. It would likely be right on the edge to get the shield down again consistently within the 30 second debuff timer, assuming they are successfully applied just before shield up.

As you pointed out near the beginning, heavily setted/purpled characters would be the obvious solution to increasing performance on this. Certainly there's no objection to running a cherry-picked raid with the goal of defeating the stormer, but these would likely not be general public raids. However, as with the use of temps and temp-pets, relying on people who have maxed out their builds isn't the preferred direction to go ultimately for general public raids. A strat that allows anyone with a generic build and utilizing few (if any) temp/pets would be the ultimate goal.

I believe that the red AV, even with the shoot-through-shield bug, is balanced enough for a pug-level public raid. It's likely he'd become less of a challenge when the bug is fixed (I hesitate to say 'too easy').

Also, I believe that when the shoot-through bug is fixed, the stormer AV will become doable and balanced. From observing several attempts against him, the slowness in getting the shield back down seems to come from his debuffing the raid groups through the shield. Add in the increased deaths from increased player vulnerability, and the stormer becomes 'broken' hard. If the stormer no longer can debuff the raid while the shield is up, the effectiveness of the raid is restored, and we've already seen that he can be handled at least down to 50% during shield-down.

So essentially, my position is:

1. Red is balanced for a public raid even with the bug; might be too easy if fixed.
2. Stormer is likely balanced once the bug is fixed, but only min/max characters and teams with temps are going to take him consistently.

It will be interesting to see how this develops in time. For now, to maintain the fun and interest of doing the trial for the most number of people, I agree with BT that the stormer should be skipped and only the red done.

(although, raid willing, I'll be more than happy to attempt against the stormer to learn more about the encounter/weaknesses/tactics).

It's important to note that teams usually don't have trouble outside at the obelisks defeating the Ru spawns to bring down the shield, and they generally do this without help from the other teams. So when doing the same thing inside the cathedral, it's doubtful the Ru's are responsible for the majority of team wipes.

And while the Ru spawns are closer inside and therefore could overlap multiple groups onto a single team, the teams themselves are closer and overlapping their support, which generally is a wash as far as increased threat. Coordination, playskill, and build account for a large degree of survivability.

There is one major difference inside though: the AV. Currently, the AV is bugged, as he is able to act while his shield is up. This is not the way he is supposed to function, since he is flagged to be affecting self only (like a PFF). But he blasts and debuffs at will, nearly one-shotting most players, who could then be easily picked off by any stray attack.

The storm AV is so problematic because of this bug. Being hurricane'd and freezing rain'd nearly the entire fight quickly takes the toll on most teams. If when the bug gets corrected, I suspect the storm AV will be more doable. The red AV lacks these huge aoe effects and his massive attacks can be better managed with buffs and a healing bubble.

Even assuming they decide to keep the bug in place to become 'as intended', it is clear that the red AV is a pushover when compared to the stormer...or the red AV is the appropriate challenge level and the stormer is simply 'stupid-hard' and as BT suggested not worth the trouble.

Either way, one is broken relative to the other, and I don't find her advice too far off the mark given the current circumstances. I am interested however in the advice and tactics of people who actually have defeated the stormer (were the players 'purpled out'? how many temp nukes, pets and powers were used? what methods were employed?); and even more, I'd like to hear of players who have success without using temps at all (which to me is the real goal; temps are a crutch).

I enjoy this challenge a lot as previously stated, but I've found the stormer AV simply sucks the fun out of the trial; and I too would rather wait and reset for the red AV, who is a very appropriate challenge level (even with the bug).

Concerning the Obelisk Strat
I've been on quite a few CoP's now, both PUG's and scheduled Angel ones. I've seen the obelisk phase take over 30 mins (with much cursing and bad feelings) and we've done it easily with little effort in under 2 minutes.

The key to dropping the obelisks efficiently is syncing the teams. If teams are balanced, then the best time to have sync is the initial attack. Teams should be charging in together, dropping the shields together, and then destroying the obelisks together.

If the initial attack fails to drop all three, all teams should continue all-out thru the second round of clear spawns/kill obelisks. By observing the shield up/down calls from the team leaders in request, and the kill rates on the obelisks in the window, the leader should get a good feel for what's happening.

After two failed attempts, the teams should pull out, back to the zone entry, clear any agro and allow things to reset fully. Then address any problems in delays, communications, or team imbalances.

Again, initial attack provides built-in sync across the teams. Trying to hold teams back, pull mobs around, or urge others to maintain some percentage on their obelisks can lead to a lot of frustration and delay as synchronization is lost. Balanced teams will perform the tasks in sync together. Using the AtT method will correct for slight imbalances or delays. And full resets, instead of continually banging your heads against the task in hopes of getting lucky, is better.

One more thing: I recommend that the leader refer to the obelisks by location as NE, SE, and SW. Using their names or N E S W alone can be confusing.

The AtT method
This small adaptation we developed early on when we saw that one obelisk was sometimes lagging behind the others. The cause was usually a team imbalance, which led to delays in that team clearing the mobs or killng the obelisk with the others.

Send one person with Assemble the Team (vet power) from each team to the next obelisk clockwise around. That person will act as a member of the obelisk team there for killing/support so there are still 8 people per obelisk. However, if when the obelisks are being destroyed the AtT'er's obelisk is lagging and might not finish in time, they assemble their team to the site to assist in the kill (AFTER their own team's obelisk is down). It provides that bit of extra power to cover small team imbalances and see the thing through.

About the Fun Factor
I'm posting this to prevent the spread of bad impressions/feelings from participants on raids where the obelisks prove to be taking too long or causing people to become turned off by this fun and exciting trial. If the obelisks are perceived to be incredibly 'stupid-hard' or seemingly impossible, then people might become disenchanted by the trial, and that would be a shame. It really is a fun task and the game needs more challenges like this. I want to encourage people to take up the challenge!

Where will be the meeting places for the CoP runs (red and blue)?

I've always wanted a fifth power pool option; this seems like a reasonable solution to that, and makes the high-teens more interesting to play through.

The first attempt at the obelisks should give a good indication of how balanced the teams are. It also shows where the AtT might be needed. If after two attempts have failed, it's probably worthwhile to pull out and reset completely at the zone entrance like we did. Determine if there's a timing problem (which we had briefly) or a team balance problem. I've seen several failed obelisk runs on other cop's where the teams just blindly kept pounding away hoping it would eventually time out correctly.

Inside, we did very well when we stayed together in the middle, stacking support and healing in a bubble. I noticed we were less effective the second shield run when people scattered a bit more, following the instinct to move toward the spawns. I think the HVAS (inadvertently) covered us here, as they kept in a perimeter around the middle and covered agro. We again regrouped in the middle on the third round and it went smoothly. Keeping together should be emphasized. (This of course does not necessarily include very survivable melees, who will need to chase the stragglers...just the squishier support and damage)

Even though I think everyone there was probably a long-time player, it doesn't hurt to remind players what their -regen powers are that should be spammed. Constantly applying -regen powers on the AV while the shield is down is extremely important. They need to last as long as possible through the shield-up phase. While I realize that a well-timed Howling Twilight could recover from a partial wipe, I think it better to use HT on shield down than save it for potential disaster. If the groups are wiping, it's likely they aren't going to succeed anyway, having lost buffs and pets in the process. Howling with some recharge should be on a 90sec recharge and will likely be available again as needed. Also, put healing on auto (rock the aura!).

A very efficient run and a lot of fun last night! I look forward to many more, and hope that people will continue to come out and help others get their badges, even after getting their own.

I'm just not too sold on it. Even if it's a concept build, where tier1 pets are minimized and you emphasize your personal attacks, you are still are faced with the choice of one of the following through level four: O2 Boost, Snow Storm, or Demonlings.

I just can't make a strong argument for taking O2 Boost or Snow Storm over Demonlings. O2 Boost is a very ineffective heal (w/status yes, but still) even compared to Aid Other. Snow Storm is the stronger of the two storm powers, but it's end cost means it's more useful later with slotting/stamina.

I would take the Demonlings anyway, and either use them or not as the whim takes you.

I would be happy to join any CoP attempts, and have a diverse collection of alts available (w/required temps).

Good show, old chap!

One thing mentioned only once that I saw was Acid Mortar. This is a key power in /Traps and should be taken immediately at 10 (the others are FF Gen at 16 and Poison Trap at 20).

Start grabbing Medicine for Aid Other/Self when you can, but don't skip the primary/secondary powers for them. Grab Medicine over Repair though.

I strongly urge you to grab some stealth (full invis is even better...think Superspeed+Celerity IO). Dropping the mortar or trap invisibly near a group and letting the devices take the alpha is a great way to open a battle.

Good luck with Bots/Traps; it's one of the best and most fun builds out there...eventually!