Rubberlad

You're right, Lemur.

All of you are absolutely right. Upon reflection, I probably shouldn't have bothered posting this thread at all.

I apologize for doing so, and am now bowing out of this conversation (and the COH forum) effectively immediately.

Sorry folks. Good luck to you.

I love Eddie Izzard... he's so fabulous!


Oh, LL: I updated my earlier post to say:


I honestly never heard this one before; if you've got a source link I'll absolutely concede the debate to you fair and square.

My bad, its Cafe HON in Baltimore - not Cafe HUN. Sorry Lemur!

Source Link: http://www.cafehon.com/

I agree with you 100%.



Well that depends: if there was no other way to proceed, would you mind if CoH was temporarily "rested" (ie shut down) for a few years while they worked on Aion, GW2 and took those lessons learned back to CoH2 somewhere down the road? Cause that might be what we're looking at in late 2010/early 2011 if GR doesn't hold up well...

When I consider where the bulk of the technology and investments are going now versus where they *could* be going, then yes I'd rather have seen CoH2 then GR. I just can't imagine a period of time when there isn't an operating CoH IP in service (nor do I want to), but you tell me.

My understanding is that there's only one PR team working for NCWest, and its answering to Korea (which has led to its own share of headaches).

I'm sure a red name will correct me if that setup's since changed.

That you're accusing me of posing a conspiracy theory is funny. That you've got me "trolling" with "doom enhancements slotted and toggled on" is just hysterical.

Folks, life really isn't measured or explained by conspiracy theories however strategic long-term business decisions and investments are guided by weights of "beneficial" versus "wasteful" spending - and there's nothing more "conspiratorial" to it than having good business sense.

Paragon Studios is a subdivision of NCWest - and NCWest shares the responsibility for managing and producing both Aion and City of Heroes in the Western Hemisphere. But NCWest doesn't act as a sole entity that's 100% independent of NCSoft - its all still virtually owned under one corporate purview no matter how many times the region-based developers change names. And if NCSoft feel its money/resources are best spent/invested on one in-house IP than another, then you can bet that's what they're going to do. Again, just simple business sense - which may or may not be in the best interests of Paragon Studios or NCwest (although signs are good since GR is on the horizon - but they're not great because its not CoH2 on the horizon which leaves me to wonder what happens to CoH *after* GR's been around for 6 months) but it all serves NCsoft's net profit at the bottom line.

And trust me, I hear what you're saying: all the viable tech improvements in the world aren't going to help an IP that's technologically challenged and unable to accomodate those advancements. They're also not going to save an established IP that appears to be ultimately unprofitable - especially after the 5 year mark which is why they're going to *another* wholly new IP rather than trying to rebuild this one... (hence my concern that we have GW2 and new, improved Aion on the horizon and not CoH2). Unless of course there's an easy way to make a quick buck with lots of stage dressing but very little "under the hood" production in terms of *new* gameplay - which is how Marvel Universe went belly up and Champions Online came to pass. Hopefully GR is not an attempt to pull the same sleight of hand...

I now leave you guys to go back to debating my "conspiracy theories" amongst the few of you that love to put the tar and feathers to the lesser-known folks in this forum; y'all really need to stop getting lost in the "tech" details for a change and try looking at the overall strategic vision of *all* the IPs in NCsoft's stable - which as Captain_Photon has already pointed out, probably isn't nearly as considerate as I'm assuming it to be. Then again, they sure did get rid of Tabula Rasa real quick after *years* of production, now didn't they...

Oh right, sorry: just because its not discussed openly at the local/regional level (whether that be Paragon Studios or NCwest), that means its not being discussed in a transatlantic vacuum over in NCsoft Korea. Sure: tell that to the folks who got laid off from Tabula Rasa that and see how far *that* attitude gets you...


PS: BackAlleyBrawler is the mastermind of an imminent alien invasion because he doesn't like "underwater zones" - discuss.

Not really.

Sure, we can compare apples to oranges, the semantics of NCsoft vs. NCwest, and argue tit for tat on every point I plucked from the original source article, but none of that speaks to my original question: is NCsoft showing undue favortism towards its newest IP rather than one of its older but still tried and true and utterly stable IPs?

Y'all just picked apart the few bits you each found interesting/offending about my OP then went off on some very weird tangents (a result of my original post being worded wrong, perhaps), but I stand by my original concern addressing in-house favortism for Aion over CoH (hence my reference to CoH as the "lowly stepchild" when compared to the "newborn babe" that is Aion). That other posters decided to bring comparisons to WoW and DAoC and FFXI to the table had nothing to do with me or my original OP - and I pushed back accordingly.

If I'd said: Why is there a Guild Wars 2 in the works, but no CoH2 by now - would that have made more sense? I personally don't think so - especially as my overall concern is with Aion having some (if not all) of the technological advances originally suggested/discussed by Devs and players alike for CoH in years past - and I say that both as a constant player of both IPs and someone who viewed the Aion "Vision" video and felt equally cheated and sorry for CoH.

But hey, suit yourself; debate the game's glaringly obvious limitations from a technological standpoint all you want - but keep in mind I'm posing this question from the vantage point of NCsoft's strategic vision and a decision to unevenly invest innovative gameplay and technology into one IP over another rather than trying to keep them *all* current (and I'm limiting the discussion to NCsoft games only - forget all the other non-NCsoft MMOs on the market right now).

Again, I don't care about any other MMO but this one. A million players plus aren't here right now that used to be over the past 5 years partly because, at some point, the investment of technology and creative vision for this game virtually tanked. Aion is out a month, sells 1 million boxes, and suddenly its getting the best tech possible to make sure everyone who bought into it stays with it - hence the "Vision" PR video of things to come (but not anytime soon) because just as quick as everyone bought in, they're already starting to log out - permanently. And players need a reason to stay vested.


If CoH had ever seen its own "Vision" video 3 or 4 years ago, I think the game would be doing just as well now as it had in Year One. You call me unrealistic; I say I'm dedicated - but I'm not enough of a fool to blind faith that I'll just throw money at anything and everything labeled "CoH" - this game deserves a better player base and it deserves a greater vision and technology than what its actually survived with after five years. Going Rogue is a nice acknowledgement of the game's overall value - but after seeing the Aion "Vision" video and Yun's cross-console MMO reference which was something discussed for CoH just a couple years ago, I know GR is certainly not the best reinvestment of time, money and resources NCsoft has to offer this IP right now...

CoH2 would've been better.

And shame on any players in this forum who cheer complacency because "its all been done before" in other MMOs. They're really not doing City of Heroes any favors by sticking around and settling for stagnant gameplay and a limited sense of vision. The Devs are our best advocates for getting the best of everything invested in this game; try being a little more supportive of new ideas and technological innovations and give them the ammunition they need to go back to Management and say "here's why we need to up *our* game before you look at (Aion/Lineage/Guild Wars)."

Putting all the snide comments and sarcasm to the side for a moment, how's about looking at this question from a totally different perspective - namely, why do I care if its all been done before in other MMOs when it hasn't been done in City of Heroes yet?

I've always been a singular fan of CoH, and while I've not always agreed with the creative directions its taken, I'm still very much intrigued by it. Champions Online aside (which may appear "trendier" but its still decidely weak on content and seriously lacking in artistic vision), CoH really is the only superhero MMO of its kind - as Blizzard recently pointed out in this article citing the utter lack of innovation seen in other MMOs nowadays:


"I think the industry needs to move in that direction to come up with some innovative new MMOs that are trying really different things. Take City of Heroes -- at least that's something that's not a fantasy game."

Source link: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Devel...t-128542.shtml



Maybe that's part of the problem - some folks can't get beyond seeing CoH as "just another MMO game" whereas others want to see it (and build it) as something special in its own right. I don't play WoW, never played DAoC and I've no interest in FFXI so I don't care what innovations occur in those games - and while I do play Aion now, I'd rather be playing CoH if someone would give enough of a damn about it to not just "maintain" it but "improve" upon it as well (Going Rogue is definitely a good start; but don't let the momentum stop there).

So if I cry foul because the new, prettier NCsoft MMO is getting a bit of undue favortism, please don't crucify me for asking why CoH feels like the lowly stepchild in the NCsoft family (ie. treated separately yet still considered equal). Its "just another MMO" to you but for me (and others) it used to be something unique and absolutely magical.


Now go ahead: tell me again why I'm wrong for wanting the tech and gameplay innovations for CoH before I see them anywhere else? If its really a case of "the engine can't support it" then let's get moving on CoH2. This is a great franchise, a brilliant MMO, and I shouldn't be the only person seeing the value in taking this IP to the next level whenever possible.

Actually, no. "Proposed" content stems from Dev interviews, announcements and Dev/Mod/Player discussions that occured over the past few years. At the time NCsoft bought CoH wholly and completely from Cryptic Studios, I remember Brian Clayton mentioning somewhere that they were looking at multiple COH-related projects outside of the current MMO realm which many speculated to mean that a console version was in the works (although Brian may have just been eluding to the Mac version of COH at the time). At this point, who really knows *what* he was hinting at?



As recently as April 2009 however, Positron himself fielded a Q&A question regarding a console version of COH however and had this to say:

We are always evaluating that possibility. Consoles bring with them a whole slew of advantages that MMOs can take advantage of: universal hardware, automated account set-ups, excellent graphics, and a massive audience. But with these advantages also comes some challenges like publishing timely fixes to client bugs, Standard Definition television resolutions, hard disk space and providing the same level and frequency of updates that PC users enjoy onto a console.

Not that these issues are insurmountable, but they do make MMO developers think twice about the product they are creating. In my opinion the console version of City of Heroes would be a different game with the same locales, enemies, and effects that the PC version has, but to a lot of people that just wouldn't be "City of Heroes."

Source Link: http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2009/180.html


Official quotes and interviews like this however appear to be "blink and you miss it" PR moments that are forever lost to time and foggy memory. Shame, really. But this is why I say the notion of a cross-console MMO for NCSoft didn't begin with Aion... it started with City of Heroes.

So what happened? And why all the revisionist history courtesy of NCsoft Korea's PR team?



Keep in mind, NCWest answers to NCSoft Korea for quite a few things (including PR). Absolutely there's someone behind the scenes evaluating all the NCsoft IPs and deciding which of the best technology upgrades/proposed features should go into currently established IPs but not others (its all about investing wisely and where the most profit can be reaped after all).

Make no mistake, there's definitely "like" technologies being shared between CoH and Aion (and Guild Wars 2, I'm sure) - but not all the advancements are being shared equally across every NCsoft IP (regardless of which IP originated the need/idea originally) - at least not yet.

Are you referring to Tom of Finland? If yes, then there are plenty of "G-rated" drawings that can be shared appropriately for this forum.

Only let's not forget the true founding father of pulp fiction pectoral covers - Doc Savage!

I'm amazed that y'all can have this "healing power of boobies..." discussion about the female form without giving equal opportunity to discuss the artistic expression of the male form - which would be what in this scenario: "the healing power of pecs...?" Or would you prefer not to give equal commentary on the whole "male pinup" art movement that ran concurrent to the popular "boob" pulp fiction/comic book covers of the previous century?


Then again, I'm amazed this thread has gotten as far as it has without getting modded. I don't suppose there are any red names willing to speak up in praise/defense of the male art form? Or should we keep the context purely sexist?

Actually, a number of us wanted COH2.

We'll take GR as a lovely comparting gift though - thanks for playing...

If anything, I realize that Marketing overreacted.

That's a true statement regardless of whether anyone believes that the COH brand is failing or still very much successful.

Keep in mind that there's an entire investment strategy industry that turns a profit just from advising its clients what to buy/sell solely based off market/industry speculation w/o access to real and current numbers. Of course it helps to build a portfolio that takes into account a company's current financial status (Dun and Bradstreet is a good economic indicator - but not the only one and certainly not the best) but without real-time current information its still possible to predict a company's future performance with some accuracy using just historical performance data, recent profit/loss trends and abnormal shake-downs at the executive level without having access to real and current numbers - which this blogger has managed to include in his assessment.

Most definitely this article hit a raw nerve *somewhere* inside NCsoft otherwise they wouldn't have made a public rebuttal. That NCsoft made ANY comment at all is a huge mistake that lends more creedence to the article than it deserves. That's not the blogger's **** up - that's Marketing's.

Personally I'd still worry that anyone inside NCsoft took it seriously at all... regardless of whether or not its true.

Actually, I think the rebuttal is a big mistake. Having been a fan of the game for all 5 years, I've *NEVER* seen a marketing executive make such a defensive and unusually direct "that's so not true!" response to negative press before. It just smacks of desperation somehow - usually NCsoft just brushes off negative press or sweeps it quietly under the rug so as not to draw more attention. This rebuttal however does the complete opposite... Couple this with the front page reminder coincidently posted on the same day reminding everyone that now's the time to cash in on the Loyalty program...

Well, let's just say that true or not true, suddenly the original article's "state of the game" assessment with dark and gloomy speculation for 2010 appears to be a lot more accurate than I'd originally given it credit for - especially as NCSoft's marketing exec responds to the last question regarding future content with enforced emphasis on everything that's been been done in years past up till now. This makes me think that there really isn't anything firm in mind beyond GR right now - despite all the abstract and promising "trust us" buzz that came out of HeroCon. And that's not very reassuring at all.

If NCsoft is smart, they'll offer the loyalty program a third time next Spring when GR goes live - if not, then I think now might be NCSoft's last chance to cash in on player loyalty before the brand's demise by Q3/Q4 2010 as the original article is speculating. In which case, Marketing's unlikely rebuff of the original article makes a whole lot of sense... who needs anyone talking trash about the franchise becoming tired and dated when you're still trying to get players to buy in on the hopes of the third (and final?) retail expansion pack that'll make everything feel fresh and new. Whether it actually works out or not is a whole different matter (and if it does, they'll say they had the brand's best interests in mind all along; if doesn't however...).


Best laid plans of mice and man, BAB. Hubby and I both thought we were safe/exempt from company layoffs earlier this year - until we both got cut surprisingly and unexpectedly within a week of each other (he was IT; I was IT procurement). It took us both 9 months to get off unemployment and find a job and we're *still* trying to get back to center where bills are concerned (we were about to go into closing for a house when I got cut; I'm so glad we didn't go through with it).

I'm not saying you or any of the Devs should hit the "panic button" just yet but definitely make sure you've got an exit strategy ready to go just in case Korea decides to pull the plug unexpectedly on plans for Year 6.