Reppu
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Posts
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Quote:Are we choosing to ignore IOs? I disagree. As they are now part of the monetary business model, while they may be ignored (questionable) in game balance, they are easy to get during this point, eight years later, since launch. Granted they weren't out at launch.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Are you asking that question in seriousness? Because I think the answer is an unambiguously obvious "no, it is not a defensive set".
Titan Weapons doesn't kill at Plaid Speeds unless it's tricked out. With SOs it becomes pretty good in the mid-20s to low-30s, but is still not as outstanding as it is with IOs, though combining it with certain armor sets improves on when it starts to shine, and to what degree it can shine with or without IOs.
Edit: I see conversations like this as extensions of the same mindeset that says no "armor" set is worth playing unless it can be softcapped to L/S or Melee defense.
So, yes. It's a serious question. What defines a Defense Set? Titan Weapons has a lot of soft mitigation in Stuns, Knockdowns, and raw damage. Is it not a Defensive Set unless it has also +DEF, +RES, and/or a Heal? TW has +DEF. Is it not a Defensive Set now?
Is this supposed to be a counter-statement? Because it's not.Quote:Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
For some what you state as the issue is correct, but it does not make it true for those that bought, play and enjoy the set. I mean the rhetoric here is indeed absurd when you have people PLing themselves X8 with the nothing to write home about AOE's of which you speak.
People love the set.
"People love the set." is not a counter-statement to "Is the set an underperformer?" -
Quote:I never said they did. My question should have been fairly simple, but I'll make it obvious since you may have missed it in context;Originally Posted by UberGuy
Then play Titan Weapons. If you can't abide anything but the highest AoE kill rates (edit: or even single-target), then you should play the sets that do that.
You of all posters should know that they will never balance the other sets up to those levels so long as those sets do anything else. Other sets do other things that you clearly don't value because, essentially, your primary interest an edge case in the game - the case of high-synergy builds with functionally infinite endurance and high recharge. But no matter how important that context of gameplay may be to you (and to others in this thread), it is not the only context that exists, and therefore it is not the only context for which the devs will attempt balance.
"Is Titan Weapons a Defensive Set due to having overwhelming damage and thusly superior kill rates? Enemies with 0 HP Can't attack, right?" -
Quote:... More like that it doesn't justify it's Single Target damage. Three AoEs? Nothing special, considering the PBAoE isn't very good, and the two cones are Decent/Good at best.Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
The thing is the people that take that position don't want anyone else to have fun playing the sets they don't feel measure up to the particular min/max stance they decide to take regarding any given set in question.
For staff the complaints I have seen make no sense whatsoever because it is not a matter of under performance, it's a matter of it is not top tier killing a GD pylon. Absurdity.....
It did the fatal mistake of having a "Melee Ranged Attack", which always end up pretty lackluster. Hint: Serpent's Reach is Lackluster.
And Sky Splitter is probably the worst damage power in the set. I thought we moved away from those Slow and Crappy attacks a long time ago?
So, yeah. It's more of a complaint of "... Where's the Single Target damage, guys? The AoE is nothing to write home about." -
Quote:I was trying to make Dark Melee feel good about itself. I know it's an old title, but hey.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Dark Melee is a high mitigation set (with the combination of stacking tohit buff, self heal, and ultra-high uptime terrorize). It lost the buzzsaw title years ago when in rapid succession Shadow Punch's animation and cast time were increased and the server alignment discovery (aka "arcanatime") caused a realization that low cast time doesn't translate into true high DPA, because arcanatime roundoff is disproportionately higher for low cast time powers.
The changes to midnight grasp significantly improved its single target damage, but the ultrahigh DPA that SP "had" and no longer has (it never really had it: that was an artifact of incomplete understanding of attack timing) and to a lesser extent the same for Smite are such that I haven't heard Dark Melee referred to as a "buzzsaw" set in a long time except in historical contexts.
It's still not a 'defensive set' just because it has a -ToHit Debuff and a Heal. A lot of nice soft mitigation? Definitely.
I think we probably need to figure out what constitutes a 'defensive set', in the end. Is it the fact it has secondary effects built for survivability? If so, where is the line drawn between Practical and Excessive?
I'll always say the best Defense is an Overwhelming offense, in the end. I could stack -ToHit to high heaven with Dark Melee but I'd rather just kill everything with Titan Weapons infinitely faster. -
Quote:What? No visible cup bulge?Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Not sure what you mean here, mace only has one attack that hits harder than headsplitter. Its DPA is substantially better of course.
Drink it in, pal, that's how failure tastes!
This message brought to you by the American TF2 Council.
Lame. -
I'll get around to doing another test with AS > SR > PS > MB. Lazy still.
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Sure?
But it's still not a Defensive Set. It's a Damage Set. It doesn't do that Very Well.
Sorry, but that's the truth of it. You might want "Staff Defense", but "Staff Fighting", as a Scrapper/Brute/Stalker Primary and Tanker Secondary, is there to do damage. If it ranks so low on Single Target Damage, it's AoE being fairly high, in exchange for giving... scant Resistance?
... Not really seeing the perk, here. The Resistance is pretty good, but it's a shame it's tied into a crap attack.
Martial Arts is by far the superior "Defensive" set (for tankers). -
... Except, to get that Resistance, you have to use arguably the worst of the Forms for all intents and purposes. While, granted, no other set in the game gives +Resistance? That alone doesn't make it a 'Defensive Set'.
That would be saying Dark Melee is a 'Defensive Set' because it has a Heal, even though it's a buzzsaw ST damage set.
7.5% Resistance isn't really worth how horribly bad Sky Splitter is. And, no. If it did no damage and applied 7.5% Resistance it would still be bad. Your damage should not be dictated by optional secondary effects. -
Quote:What makes it a "Defensive Melee Set"? Because it has Guarded Spin?Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I think when you come to staff, you have to have this in mind: it is a DEFENSIVE melee set. Do not choose it if you want to do the max out damage, and do not pair it up with a defense set that has an easy time hitting defence and/or resistance caps.
Defensive Sweep laughs at your assertion.
Because Sky Splitter CAN give Resistance?
Sky Splitter is also one of the worst attacks in the set.
Because it has some Knock Down?
Titan Weapons again.
What makes it a "Defensive Melee Set"? -
Quote:Takes away from shiny things.Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
This sounds like a bunch of coding work with no financial return. Where is the profit in this?
Declined! -
No.
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It's true, I didn't like Time. I felt they missed the aesthetics for it, hard.
As for Drain Orb, why not have it escalate? A stacking debuff that keeps ramping the longer they're in it, and not just front-loading? Although that'd make everything in Drain Orb likely need to follow suit.
Anyway, -500% is the standard for anything that isn't just primarily a -Regen tool. Probably should be your maximum if you want to keep the -END thing.
Anything below that is just too heavily resisted to matter (Looking at Time, here.) -
Because people are silly. That's why. War Mace on Scrappers is STUPID good.
Also most of the maces are fugly. -
Quote:I think the utter lack of -Regen in the set is a archaic mistake from the past. I'd personally like if Drain Orb did something interesting like creating a field of -Recovery, -Regen, and applied +Recovery, +Regen to allies within it. Although that'd be somewhat like Static Field, sans SF not having -Regen.Originally Posted by JayboH
It's all soft control like Fearsome Stare is on Dark Miasma, and freezing rain/sleet regarding kd. I was actually encouraged by the devs I spoke with to go either in an end management or regen direction.
I will be happy to look at any ideas you have as well - I know you like numbers too but I contacted Arcanaville for some of that.
I'm sure it works, though, although -END usually doesn't work very well unless it's heavily focused. If two powers from 'Energy Orbs' can duplicate what you need most of Electric Control from, this is Not A Good Idea.
Also, you have Stun Orb for your Support Set Control Power.
I sort of like the idea of cascaded stacking -Regen/-Recovery, and increasing +Regen/+Recovery from a stationary orb. But that's just me. It would ALSO free up Recovery Orb and allow you to do something 'interesting'.
Finally, why 'Energy Orbs'? Why not Magic Runes like the glorious ones we've seen used often in Dark Astoria, the Tsoo, and sets like Demon Summoning? If nothing else I'd strongly suggest alternate animations involving both, but this is getting more into cosmetics, and me thinking we can really benefit from a rune-based support set, since we have so many in-game sources of them.
Orbs just sort of feels like it's stepping toes on Force Fields/Sonic, and it's arguably going to be "Just another literal bubble set". Where's the selling drive? The unique appeal? That's my concern from a marketing standpoint.
More bubbles isn't a good pitch. -
Quote:I'm entirely aware of how effective Electric Control is. I'm not sure how good I feel about a Support Set being able to duplicate that, if I'm more clear now.Originally Posted by JayboH
It has two abilities that work together to drain end - not sure if you realize how effective electric control is in that regard. It requires that you toe bomb on purpose to achieve this, by design. I appreciate the compliments, some of that goes to those that helped. I worked for quite a few hours on this even though I know it isn't finished. I was just trying to come up with some ideas that might spark creativity.
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Looks a lot better now that a lot of powers got powered down and tweaked to be a bit clearer. Nothing I can see glares at me being 'over the top', although I don't think I'm a fan of it having an Endurance Drain mechanic in any capacity, be it Max or Otherwise.
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Our current ones aren't even balanced properly. We REALLY don't need more.
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Quote:... I'm not sure what Degenerative does to the overall time, to be honest. You shouldn't be beating me with Water Spout in the least, though.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Also if you are using waterspout, you should be getting higher dps than me. All my times are just with the attack chain shown. We are awfully close on DPS which is interesting if you are continuing to use waterspout.
Not sure if it is a difference in procs, or if it is the difference between your T4 Reactive and my T4 Degenerative.
Degenerative might really bork up the equations. -
It's not a plot.
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Quote:In line of this, I prefer Huntsmen if only because not only do they have comparable, if not arguably superior Ranged AoE Damage, but they definitely do have the superior Ranged Single Target Attack Chain (Due to the old Single Shot/Burst Buffs), if we're talking about not including the pets in the math here.Originally Posted by blueruckus
I respect your analysis and agree that without the pets, these low pylon times wouldn't be possible. I would be the insane one to ever argue that.
However, if we're talking trial AVs, even without the pets, direct single target can be 'okay'. At that point though, the crab can be contributing double assault/double maneuvers/double tactics, -20 res from Venom Grenade, another -20 if you're taking Shatter from PPP, another -20 from slotting Achilles (yes, i know this isn't exclusive as others may be slotting this also), -dmg from SoA proc, and some -def. We all realize how much this game revolves around buffs/debuffs, right?
Really though, if the trial AV does turn in to tank and spank (and most of them are), just drop down pets on top of that and you're golden. There's so much +team def flying around from leaguemates that pet durability isn't a big liability. So, throw the Pylon runs out of the window if you'd like, but the results are still similar on 90ish % of the hard targets in this game... if you actually go out of the way to heavily slot and invest in to the pets, which to my understanding, most Crabs do not.
With the full pet arsenal, a crab will pull ahead, no doubt. But Huntsman are still hilariously underestimated. If my old calculations hold true, Huntsman beat Bane ST damage by a small margin (with Gloom). And Crabs were below Banes with out the pet swarm.
I think, in the end, the SoA AT as a whole is very solidly designed (although I loathe Banes). If the Backpack didn't exist or I could just get the Crab Support Set + the pets and not get the backpack if I were to forego all Crab Primary powers? I'd play them in a heartbeat.
Since the Crab Pack is a no-sale to me on female models, yeah. That is why I don't play a Crab: aesthetics.
That, and Huntsmen are just so much more aesthetically awesome.
The Man With the Machine Gun~! -
I'll keep Ma Chao's Musou, thanks.
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Quote:^ That.Originally Posted by Lothic
I think what was meant by "political message" is that there would be a certain amount of "political correctness" you'd have to deal with in portraying a powerset with angelic overtones.
Ironically while most people can probably accept Demon Summoning as a powerset you'd probably have more people upset with the game trying to define/visualize the way angels work. Many people have many different religious beliefs and some people would be less comfortable seeing certain kinds of religious imagery depicted in the game than others. Would these angels be Judeo-Christian in nature or would they borrow from other styles/faiths? Would the MM involved be considered some kind of cleric/priest or would people come up with more disrespectful connotations?
Sadly having an Angelic Summoning powerset in the game would likely cause more tension and bickering than you'd initially expect or realize. We'd probably get a female-based MM powerset long before something like this. *shrugs* -
Hybrid will just add the same amount of damage to all sets, so it's TL;DR.
I have Tier 4 Musculature now. I'll run another test... in a bit. -
I smell a political message!
More importantly: Fix MM before new power sets, as each new power set screws global pet AI harder and harder. -
The moments you pets explode or don't focus, your DPS tanks. That's pretty much why they aren't 'holy grail' in the least. And their personal attacks are largely lackluster.
Crab damage is almost entirely their pets. Uncontrollable, derpy pets.
But I'll see if I can't convince some nerfs at the Pummit. Probably need the Pets HP and Damage cut in Half. And for Crabs to lose their self heal, and half of their resistance. And their mez protection.
Yeah. Need to scale them back.
TL;DR - Your All Pylon Solo Run pretty much meant Nothing. That was your pets being in their absolute best case scenario - impossible to receive damage and focusing on a single target. This isn't remotely as easy to duplicate in a Trial, unless it's a Tank and Spank AV that nobody cares about. But one wild AoE and your DPS tanks!
Although, I can admit they're good. Very much so. But there's some 'out of REAL control' quirks to their supreme STDPS, which is why when I look at your Pylon run, I go "Cool, but that's beyond optimal circumstances and really is worth nothing for data."