Reiraku

Yeah, which is being stripped from you in PvP.

True, a middle ground in some ways. A means to make PvP more accessable to the new player without removing the depth and fun that the experienced players had with it.

Unfortunately, i13 seemed to go in the opposite direction with this.

Batman is such a bully. Dude beats up regular thugs like it was a career.

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The flags are already there. In the zone means you're flagged for PvP. Not in the zone means you aren't flagged for PvP.

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I don't see how these "flags" do anything to improve population numbers in the PvP zones.

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They won't. And honestly, the issue isn't whether or not one can be attacked in a PvP zone that's keeping people out (that'd be silly), but rather, the way people think keep them out of a zone.

If someone wants to go in Siren's Call and have a look around, by all means go for it. They still have to understand that they're in a PvP zone and subject to attack at any given moment. Getting upset that they got PvP'd in a PvP zone is just ignorant to the purpose of the zone. If I took a character to PI to look around, then got killed by a sniper, I wouldn't complain. Like the chicken said, "I knew the job was dangerous when I took it."

Best way to make sure your latest game feature is a success:

1) Release it with crippling bugs and issues.

2) Ignore those bugs for 6 issues before fixing them on accident when working on an unrelated issue

3) Tell the fans of said feature to screw off.

Follow these steps, and you're sure to have a winner on your hands.

The flags are already there. In the zone means you're flagged for PvP. Not in the zone means you aren't flagged for PvP.

I understand what you're saying, that it's discouraging for someone to be beaten so quickly by a team of people before they have the chance to react. The thing is, have you considered it from the other side? When you see someone in a zone, you have no idea how many people are on that person's team. You and your two buddies could be easily outnumbered by him and his six friends who are just around the corner. Waiting for a "crew manifest" is an invitation to failure. One's initiative to remove one's opponent from combat as quickly as possible is the most important factor.

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Considering the gap between good builds and not so good builds has gotten wider with i13, I'd say the chances of them actually achieving victory are slimmer than ever if they were new. Battles might last longer, but the actual chance for victory has gone down. It just means they die slower.

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No, before new players had no chance of victory because they left in frustration before they could work out the gimmicks. Dying slower means you have time to figure out why you're not winning. Not hitting often enough? You need more +ACC. Getting hurt to easily? More +Health. I'm simplifying but there's room for an analytical process now where before the "WHAM: DEAD" system didn't really allow for.

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Combine that with powers working considerably different than how they do in PvE (mez resist for example) and it isn't uncommon to see players get frustrated with things being so different.

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Well there I will agree with you. Again, I think PVP is inherently flawed. However I still believe that eliminating the gimmicky play, especially movement based powers, was a step in the right direction. It was, by no means, a panacea.

Again, I don't think anything but a complete re-engineering of PVP from the ground up will save PVP in this game. It seems destined, at best, to remain a sideshow to the main PVE game.

I don't mind this game being a PVE game, I have other games I can go to for PVP. What I don't like is the kludgy tack on that PVP always has been. I think they should fix PVP, and do it right, or just admit it was a mistake and get rid of it all together.

However, given the choice of I-12 PVP vs I-13, I've got to say I13 is the lesser evil.

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Now now, a new person had a chance at victory, it was just lower than someone who had been there for longer. After all, we were all new at one point.

You're making it sound as though one couldn't analyze why they lost after they've been defeated. It wasn't hard to figure out that if I stood still in a zone on my blaster, the chances of me getting AS'd went up considerably. Likewise, when a BS/Regen supersped past me and suddenly I see "CRITICAL!" and I'm dead, it didn't take much to look at the combat log and see which power he used to cause that much damage. It teaches one REAL fast to stay away from anything melee when you don't have the HP to handle it.

If you were dying very quickly, you either weren't moving or weren't using defensive options available to you, such as self heals. Once you had that step down, the rest was practice. TP Foe? Bringing oranges help immensely.

And I disagree that movement powers needed to go. Those weren't gimmicky, those were actually part of the experience and tactics within PvP. If the same mechanics were to be placed on PvE, people would be outraged at how they had been "nerfed" because some others were overperforming in the game.

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One thing is for sure, the learning curve for PvP in this game was definitely higher than others. Figuring out how things worked and how to contribute vs PvE was considerably different. However, with the way they altered powers in addition to other changes in i13, it feels like they took a step in the opposite direction in making it more accessable.


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I disagree with this. A new player to PVP might actually have a chance to fight back now in PVP where before I saw people go down before even realizing what happened. People have that happen to them more than a couple of times, they will leave the zone and not come back.

I'm no stranger to PVP, and I can say pre-I13 PVP in this game was hopeless which is why only a small insular subset of the community engaged in it at all.

There needs to be a better learning curve for PVP, something that lets players learn by doing without it being frustrating and discouraging. Other games generally manage this for the most part. NCSoft has even managed it themselves before. But CoV simply does not have it.

I think they're better off re-building PVP from the ground up. These tweaks and patches to an inherently poor design may get rid of some of the bumps, but do nothing to address the design beneath.

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Considering the gap between good builds and not so good builds has gotten wider with i13, I'd say the chances of them actually achieving victory are slimmer than ever if they were new. Battles might last longer, but the actual chance for victory has gone down. It just means they die slower.

Combine that with powers working considerably different than how they do in PvE (mez resist for example) and it isn't uncommon to see players get frustrated with things being so different.

One thing is for sure, the learning curve for PvP in this game was definitely higher than others. Figuring out how things worked and how to contribute vs PvE was considerably different. However, with the way they altered powers in addition to other changes in i13, it feels like they took a step in the opposite direction in making it more accessable.

The most easily sought venue for PvP (zones) was often the least newbie friendly. Likewise, the least accessable (in arena with experienced players) was much more forgiving and beneficial.

At least you're being honest now.

Yup, now I'm sure you didn't PvP on Liberty before i13.

I wish...

Whirligig.

Look it up.

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The only thing that will get them to stay is being able to play their first few times without getting pwned. Defeated is fine, but pwned by definition means someone is basically trying to drive them away.

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This is very much true. Every time this conversation comes around, I use my own start as an example.

Never been in PvP before. Had the game maybe a month. I walk into Siren's Call the first time, looking around. Wow, a new zone. Okay, I have twenty seconds now before PvP starts. Hey, I wonder what this contact-like guy over here is.

Timer reaches 0.
TP Foe'd out of the base.
Stunned.
Placated.
Assassin Strike.
Trash talked.
Dead and insulted 35 seconds after entering the zone for the first time, with no way to respond or even be aware of what happened. I didn't even look at PvP again for months, and it took multiple friends begging me to even step foot near it again.

If you want new people to get involved in PvP, it has to actually be vaguely fun. Not just a handful of ultra-skilled veterans curbstomping 99% of the rest of the population. No reward is going to counteract it not being fun. It'll just make the people who don't have fun moan and complain about how they're forced to PvP to keep up.

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Unfortunately, those people aren't "ultra-skilled" as you put it. They just learned a quick gimmick that works well on those new to PvP. Once you learn a few standard PvP tricks of your own, things like TP foe aren't that big of a deal.

Considering I talked to, on a daily basis, people that PvP'd on Liberty since i6 all the way through the i13 beta, again I'd have to say that you're full of it.

That's one server that's definitely lost people. Protector or Pinnacle, not so much.

Actually, I don't think there's a PvP'er out there that believes the old system didn't have problems. The thing is, i13 did nothing to help these problems while creating whole new ones.

Also, I'd say most don't PvP because they simply don't want to, not because it's "awful" as you put it.

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Ahh, so you believe it's better now that things are worse, but with no facts to back up your actual position.

Got you.

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PvP was like a turd. Anything you did to it would have been an improvement. That was my point. But otherwise, Im not gettin into that convo.

And btw, for sheets and giggles I checked out RV in Liberty and there were 8 people there - more than I was seeing just before i13 hit. So much for his numbers.

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Seeing as how there's a number of PvP SG's from Liberty that used to field several 8 man teams, I'd say you're full of it.

Ahh, so you believe it's better now that things are worse, but with no facts to back up your actual position.

Got you.

Correct. You didn't tell him that it would happen.

The rest is accurate though.

Exactly

Electric, strangely enough.

Thunderstrike is hitting like a dump truck full of headbutts, apparently.

It takes longer to get back into the fight from the hospital after healing than it does from right in the middle of the fight.

Doesn't seem silly to me.

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If it were considered more fun now (in general) than before, why such a drop in population?

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Because those that liked crap dont like things that arent crap?

And whether you choose to believe it or not, the damage has been done. But of course you wouldnt because you say you liked it before. Though if you can for a min assume that it was bad, then you might understand how it pushed people away (with the issues Mac has said) and how hard it would be to get them to give PvP another chance.

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"crap" is a subjective term, thus differs from person to person. The population numbers aren't subjective, thus make a better measuring stick in this case.

If it was "bad" before, then this made things "worse" in nearly every way.

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As for 2, the population difference between then and now speak for itself.

[/ QUOTE ]Negative. You see, the prob is you suggested PvP was fun - and thats pretty subjective, population or not. Especially when u consider any damage that the craptastic PvP may have caused during all the years of its existence. These changes are a very late attempt @ damage control. (Oh and btw, I have noticed MORE zone PvP now than just pre i13, so I question the population comment anywayz.)



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Well, I've seen less, and the majority of reports from people who regularly frequented zones also state that there are fewer in zones than before. If it were considered more fun now (in general) than before, why such a drop in population? Wouldn't it make more sense that there would be a noticeably higher population of PvP'ers?

And don't get me started on that whole "Damage PvP caused" argument, because that's one of the dumbest subjects I've ever heard.

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You know, I would agree if it weren't for two things.

1) Things became more unbalanced than ever.

2) Those new rules removed a lot of what made the game fun.

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And honestly, id expect youd think 1 if I knew you thought 2.

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Naturally. Since it's been shown in a number of ways (contribution effect of buffers vs more damage, AT/set rankings, number of "viable" builds before and after) I'd say anyone who actually did their homework would think 1. As for 2, the population difference between then and now speak for itself.

Maybe that'll change with future changes to PvP. But from my point of view, it's unlikely.