Reiraku

aka, MM's have a higher mitigation threshold that was intended to be used as the Tanking AT of CoV, but is not utilized as such in the reality of the game due to player preference and mechanical factors.

Except those are defensive mitigating factors themselves and should be taken into account. A large part of an MM's mitigation threshold comes from not just his defense/resistance/HP cap, but his ability to replenish those of his Pets and Himself while diminishing his opponent's ability to do damage. Would you compare Invuln to Fire Armor without Healing Flames/Dull Pain?

That's to say nothing of offensive mitigation, which is a whole 'nother can of worms.

You didn't take into effect any of the MM's mitigation powers from their secondary in that equation at all, did you?

Now go back and do the math again, this time, account for the fact that Resistance isn't the only form of mitigation, thus brutes aren't necessarily taking 2/5ths of the damage of MM's. And in the case of pure resistance vs resistance would be an exception to the number of damage mitigation choices in comparison to one another, and not the rule.

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MMs as the Tankers of CoV was only used in a vague and largely abandoned early design phase of CoV. It never actually hit the real world. If MMs were meant to be Tankers or aggro manipulators of any kind, they would have been given native aggro grabbing capabilities (whether for themselves or their pets) as well as the ability to take hits better, even with bodyguard turned on. As it stands, they're nowhere near tough enough or capable of enough aggro control to actually fulfill the role.

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Well, seeing as how the devs as late as issue 9 (during the i10 beta to be exact) stated that MM's were to be intended as the "Tanks" of CoV combined with the fact that MM pets have a higher threat mod than brutes AND a higher mitigation threshold (excepting AoE's) than brutes seems to suggest that you're wrong.

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prove it

since all brute attacks have the following line in them (even the aoe's):

400% taunt on target


the modifier you speak of matters little. my pets dont pull aggro off a brute who is actively attacking and using aoe's.

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Indeed, and that's a very important factor to consider when looking at how aggro works in this game.

Brutes have a 4.0 aggro modifier. MM's have only a 2.0, but their pets work at just slightly higher (I want to say 4.5). The issue with that is until MUCH later in the game's life, the current devs didn't understand full how aggro was calculated. Taunt wasn't a static effect, it was a magnitude of threat level compounded by damage, threat mods, and distance. In issue 7 proper, the factors that made up the "threat equation" were largely unknown. Distance wasn't even thought of as being a part of it.

Now look at how that equation works with how the AT's are designed. An MM in BG mode can soak up a LOT of damage via their pets. Between buffs and debuffs, they can individually mitigate more incoming damage than a brute can with few exceptions. Give their disposable pets a higher threat mod than Brutes and they should take the aggro, right? At the time, that's how the devs felt, but the reality of the situation played out much differently due to the unknown factors.

Saying that "the idea was abandoned in early design of CoV" is very mis-informed.

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MMs as the Tankers of CoV was only used in a vague and largely abandoned early design phase of CoV. It never actually hit the real world. If MMs were meant to be Tankers or aggro manipulators of any kind, they would have been given native aggro grabbing capabilities (whether for themselves or their pets) as well as the ability to take hits better, even with bodyguard turned on. As it stands, they're nowhere near tough enough or capable of enough aggro control to actually fulfill the role.

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Well, seeing as how the devs as late as issue 9 (during the i10 beta to be exact) stated that MM's were to be intended as the "Tanks" of CoV combined with the fact that MM pets have a higher threat mod than brutes AND a higher mitigation threshold (excepting AoE's) than brutes seems to suggest that you're wrong.

I think if we combine our problems, they should go away.

I'll give your booze to my kid, then he'll go back to sleep!

Both of our problems are bottle related.

Odd.

I have a 9 month old.

What's your excuse?

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And I don't want to hear from brutes who's job is to do damage, and who get BETTER defense then a scrapper with the same set due to having better modifiers.

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This is wrong.

Can't say I've seen anyone crazy enough to try the combo, personally.

If you do, please let us know how it turns out.

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Actually, there's a lot of base defense ...

[/ QUOTE ]I'm gonna smack you

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Sorry... couldn't resist.

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this might help

What's your primary/secondary? Also, PvE exclusively or some PvP as well?

The snipes, in general, suck. They take WAY too long (8 seconds, seriously) for the damage they do. You're better off with the single target blast. Dark Blast fires off VERY quickly for good damage, Shadow Meld is an excellent power for any non-soft capped character (particularly /regens) and Soul Storm just looks neat.

Waterspout can make a handy "Oh crap!" power and adds a nice bit of chaos to the mix. Hibernate is the ultimate "NO U!" power to any and all incoming damage, and Spirit Shark Jaws is probably one of my favorite holds in the game. Get a Kronos Titan held in the LRSF, then use that on it for king sized OM NOM NOM!

OH HAY GUIZE! WE SHOULD BRING BACK THE GOOD OLE DAYS OF GEMINI PARK! I'M SUGGESTING IT BECAUSE IT'S NEVER BEEN BROUGHT UP BEFORE!

Can I be the Warshade?

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You can't really go too wrong with anything paired with /Nin. But I would stay away from Electric Armor on a Stalker or anything resistance based. /SR is good too but tends to be a much tighter build than /Nin.

I've tried Dual Blades on a Brute but not a Stalker, not sure I can recommend it. If you want a blade, I would choose Ninja Blade; just keep in mind it's all lethal damage. EM is fine and so is Electric (but much more AOE-oriented) as a primary. DM will give you great single target damage and mitigation.

Good luck!

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Sums it up rather nicely.

Does this mean we can have the entire ladder join the Renegades so we can all be the #1 team and get nifty titles?

Cause if so, I want in.

I say let the Jade Spider go berserk in St. Martial and have a swarm of LB Ballista attack it Triple Threat Showdown!

How my soft-capped characters feel

Me right now

Hasn't worked for me so far. I get constant crashes when the game tries to launch still.

You do realize that the same number of AT's have access to Hibernate on both sides, right?

Beyond that, stalkers are no big deal. If you keep moving, they can't nail you with their big hitter very easily. Even if they do, they are still pretty far away from you when it actually goes off, giving you time to recover/retaliate. Once out of Hide, a stalker has to finish the job in very short order or become a stain. They don't have the staying power of other AT's to just go toe to toe and expect to do well.

Anyone can get ganked at anytime, anyplace. There's nothing new about that, nor is it something to be changed. It's just what we all have to experience to get better at PvP.

Been that way since i6.

It's been noted, reported, and abused time and again for nearly 4 years now. The devs will get to it when they get to it (ie, never).

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Well then, Im gonna skip this other ignorant reply and just talk back with you Reiraku.

Ok you talk about perception. Im decently IO'ed out in every power. You talk about perception but then a stalker can be standing right next to me in Hide and I never see him. Till he lets loose his Strike that is. You said Invisibilty is 1000. then how are they able to see me from 10 feet much less 10000 feet. Something still isnt adding up.

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Because even though Invisibility gives 1000 stealth, your non-stalker caps at 571 stealth. So that stalker only needs 71 more perception to see you. For the record, /SR, /Nin, /WP, and /DA all have perception boosting powers. On top of that, Tactics from the Leadership pool also gives perception. Each one of these powers is more than enough to see a non-stalker AT at capped stealth.

Since stalkers have a much higher stealth cap, they could run just Invisibility and get the full benefit of the 1000 stealth it offers. Getting to the perception cap is much harder than getting to the stealth cap is for non-stalker AT's.

That's because they have enough perception to see you.

Base player perception is 500 feet. Non-stalker stealth caps at 571 feet. Note that's only 71 feet higher than the base perception. That means if they have any form of +perception (which most people have), then they'll be able to see you from X amount of feet away.

Stalkers have a much higher stealth cap (over 1100 feet, or just ten feet under the perception cap). With Hide + Stealth + Stealth IO (a common thing for PvP stalkers), they'll be sitting at the stealth cap. That means you'll need to be at the perception cap to see them, which is much harder to do. Even at the cap, you'd only be able to see them from within ten feet.