Redlynne

I managed to win one of the Party Packs for Virtue wearing the costume you can see in the screenshots I posted over the weekend (ie. before the party) ... here.

Still totally floored that I won ... on the unofficial RP server.

I'm thinking that what Circeus was getting at is that Taunt does not stack up from multiple sources (ie. different casters) the way that other status effects (sleep, hold, immobilize, etc.) do. If two different casters apply a hold (each) to a single target, the MAGs on those holds stack, which incidentally is how a lot of bosses get held/stunned/slept/whatever. You just have two casters combine to stack enough MAG for the status effect to actually take effect.

Taunt doesn't (by design) work like that. Two casters don't stack their Taunt MAG together in order to achieve a singular effect (taunt) in the same way that mezz effects stack for holds/immobilizes/stuns/etc.

Taunt MAG is primarily used to determine if the target "responds" to the taunt (ie. MAG 3 on LT and MAG 4 on Boss and so on). Once your MAG Stack o' Taunt exceeds the target's MAG Protection, you're in the running for being able to grab aggro (and hold onto it) regardless of what other people are doing to that target.

In this respect, I think that Circeus was either wrong or ill informed as to how the powers themselves functioned, with respect to the Effect does not stack from same caster modifier on powers data. The (but not the same power) notation by Circeus is correct for some powers (ie. those with Effect does not stack from same caster on their Target: components), and incorrect for others (ie. those which lack this modifier).

Wow, you really like tossing the easy questions my way, don't you?

This is brute force simple, really.

RttC has two effects that affect the Target(s) ... ToHit Debuff and Taunt.

The ToHit Debuff specifically and explicitly says that the debuff does not stack from same caster.

The Taunt specifically and explicitly FAILS to say the taunt does not stack from same caster.

Therefore ... the ToHit Debuff does not stack ... and the Taunt does.

Quite
Easily
Done

Furthermore ... the Taunt in RttC is a MAG 3 with a 1.25 sec base duration on a 1 sec activation. This means that lacking any Taunt Enhancement, RttC *alone* will "leak" aggro of +0 Bosses (need Mag 3.1), EBs (need Mag 6.1) and AVs (need Mag 6.1) due to both insufficient MAG and overlap time to stack MAG. Without Taunt Enhancement, you'll essentially have 3+3=6 MAG for 0.25 sec out of every 1 sec. Your Taunt Aura is "weak" in that it is only effective against LTs full time, and only effective against Bosses 1/4 of the time, when not using Gauntlet to draw (and hold) aggro.

This is actually quite easy to test, with no Taunt IOs slotted, and you can even set up an AE mission to control the test.

Draw aggro of a +0 Boss with RttC only (no secondary attacks) on your Tanker.
Have a second player character (AT somewhat irrelevant) attack the +0 Boss.

3/4 of the time, the Boss should "peel off" from the Willpower Tanker, pretty much "instantly." That's because 3/4 of the time, the +0 Boss will only have a MAG 3 Taunt affecting them which is not enough to "hold aggro" on a +0 Boss. The remaining 1/4 of the time, the +0 Boss should remain focused on the Tanker ... but then quickly drop aggro (in less than 0.25 seconds, actually) on the Tanker and switch to the second player attacker. That's because the 0.25 second double stack overlap of MAG 3+3=6 expires (frequently) ... and once again you need to have more than MAG 3 to "hold" aggro from a Boss.

Now, if the Boss can't move out of RttC radius in the time between Activation pulses, then they'll tend to target switch a lot as they keep getting hit with a MAG 3+3=6 double stack for 0.25 seconds every 1 second ... but as you should quickly see, that "leaks" aggro from Bosses. It means that Bosses are perfectly capable of "shooting out" at teammates while being (intermittently!) Taunted by RttC.

This changes when you put two common 50 Taunt IOs into RttC (+83.32% post-ED).

1.25 sec * (1+0.8332) = 2.2915 sec

By extending the duration beyond 2 seconds with enhancements, you create a situation where the Taunt Stack never decreases below MAG 3+3=6 ... and ... for brief, repeating bursts (ie. 0.2915 sec per 1 second) actually triple stacks to create MAG 3+3+3=9 Taunt. Note that a single common 50 Taunt IO is insufficient to create a perma-double stack of Taunt from RttC.

1.25 sec * (1+0.424) = 1.78 sec

This is all operating on exactly the same rules and principles as being able to double stack Holds and Immobilizes so as to generate sufficient MAG to cause an effect to "stick" to a Boss, EB or AV and thus ... take effect. And the pre-requisite for being able to "self stack" a power onto itself and thus "perma" itself is to be able to have the duration be at least twice as long as the recharge+animation time (if a click) or have the duration be at least twice as long as the activation time (in a toggle) and not have the key phrase Effect does not stack from same caster appended to the SPECIFIC bullet point of the effect in question to be self stacked.

Effect does not stack from same caster is a modifier to specific effects, and is always spelled out explicitly on a per effect basis in powers with multiple effects.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Dispersion Bubble (Force Field Defender)
Target:

• DEF(All Types, Melee, Ranged, AOE) +10% for 0.75s [Non-resistable]
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• -8.65 Held, Stun, Immobilize for 0.75s If NOT on a PvP map [Non-resistable]
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• RES(Held, Stun, Immobilize) +86.5% for 0.75s If on a PvP map [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Notice how the Effect does not stack from same caster modifier is applied specifically to three different power effects, individually? That's because it's not a GLOBAL modifier like you'd been assuming ... it's an individual effect modifier. It modifies only the individual bullet pointed item it's attached to.

Now let's look at something like Siphon Speed (Kinetics Defender)
Target:

• RunSpeed, FlySpeed, SpeedJumping -0.625 for 60s [Non-resistable]
• JumpHeight -62.5% for 60s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
• RechargeTime -20% for 60s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
• Max RunSpeed -3.5 for 60s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
  Effect does not stack from same caster

It is perfectly possible for a Kinetics Defender to double (and even triple) stack Siphon Speed on a single target. The first, second and third bullet pointed effects can all be stacked ... but the fourth cannot. So with a double stack of Siphon Speed, the Target is at -40% Recharge Time ... and with a triple stack is at -60% Recharge Time. But the Max RunSpeed penalty will always be -3.5 no matter how deeply stacked Siphon Speed is from the same caster. Single stack or triple stack, from same caster doesn't matter, to Max RunSpeed.

Now let's look again at what the parameters are for Rise to the Challenge (Willpower Tanker)
Target:

• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
• ToHit -3.5% for 1s
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Clear as day ... if you know what you're reading, and what you're looking at, and understand how to program via spreadsheets. It doesn't get any more black and white obvious than this.

Effect does not stack from same caster applies only to the ToHit Debuff component ... not to the Taunt component ... of RttC.

Here ... look at Invincibility (Invincible Tanker)
Self:

• ToHit +2% for 1s
• DEF(Smashing) +1% for 1s If NOT on a PvP map
• DEF(Smashing) +5% for 1.12s If NOT on a PvP map
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• DEF(Smashing) +1% for 1s If on a PvP map
• DEF(Smashing) +5% for 1.12s If on a PvP map
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Target:

• +16.875s Taunt (mag 4) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• +16.875s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Makee Sensee yet?
Invincibility also has a 1 second Activation, just like RttC does ... but you can't stack the MAG from its Taunt. Stacking the Taunt from Invincibility is forbidden, for both Raid Mobs AND for non-Raid Mobs. Black and white, clearly spelled out. Effect does not stack from same caster only applies to individual bullet pointed effects, and individual powers often have multiple effects ... some of which are forbidden to self-stack, while some are allowed and permitted to self-stack. The distinction is clearly specified, each and every SINGLE time for each and every SINGLE effect of a power.

RttC's Taunt effect IS ALLOWED TO SELF STACK.
This is allowed because it is not specifically forbidden by the key phrase Effect does not stack from same caster. If it were you would not be seeing THIS:
Rise to the Challenge (Willpower Tanker)
Target:

• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
• ToHit -3.5% for 1s
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Instead, you would be seeing THIS:

Rise to the Challenge (Willpower Tanker)
Target:

• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• ToHit -3.5% for 1s
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Since the latter is explicitly *NOT* what you see, then that is explicitly *NOT* how the power operates (and how you apparently had been presuming that it does).

RttC *IS* allowed to self stack its Taunt MAG and Duration. In order to do so *effectively*, a minimum of +60% Taunt Enhancement is required ... in order to extend 1.25 seconds out to 2.0 (or more) seconds, in order to achieve a perma double stack of Taunt via RttC. This requires a minimum of two slots for +60% or more enhancement via SOs or IOs for a perma double stack of RttC Taunt to achieve a MAG 3+3=6 Taunt, permanently, after a Target has been within range for 1-2 seconds.

A perma triple stack of RttC Taunt would require +140% Taunt Enhancement, which due to ED is simply NOT POSSIBLE. However, brief triple stacks of RttC Taunt ARE possible when Taunt Duration is enhanced beyond 2.0 seconds (ie. greater than +60% enhancement). At +95% enhancement (+100% pre-ED), using three +0 SOs, a Taunt Duration of 2.4375 seconds can be achieved.

RttC *IS NOT* allowed to self stack its ToHit Debuff. THAT Effect does not stack from same caster.



Does that answer your question ... or do you need more RTFM than that?

If the Tank dies, it's the Healer's fault.
If the Healer dies, it's the Tanks fault.
If the DPS dies, IT'S THEIR OWN DAMN FAULT!

My best answer is the results of Tanker Tuesday on Virtue this past week ...
I play Shirayukihime ... an Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker. Other Tanks have a hard time pulling aggro off me ... even in an all Tanker team-8 situation.

An Ice Tanker operates on the "flypaper principle" in which you draw hostiles in close and grind them into loess wholesale, rather than retail. Once an enemy gets "stuck on you" the only way for them to escape your influence is either knockback or faceplanting. Ice Tankers make for some of the absolute best herding Tankers.

Pretty much all of these powers on NPCs can be classified as CHEATER powers.

And I'm sorry, but the power is called MOMENT of Glory ... not MINUTES (plural!) of Glory.

The way I look at it is ... if any of these God Mode Powers were available to players, those players would be insta-banned for hacking the game. The fact that these God Mode Powers are available to NPCs does not make them less offensive to my gaming sensibilities. These are h4xx0r cheats that do not provide challenge, they're merely "nyah nyah!" obnoxiousness.

Have a look at the Screenshot Tour in my sig, if you'd like an extensive look at things like arcane wall platforms and bookshelves arranged in arrays for use as flooring. If you'd rather have a tour, so I can show you around and explain how things are done while you're standing on them, send me a PM here in the forums and we can set up a time.

I think that Mids' is not calculating Combat Training: Offense correctly, in that I don't think Mids' is applying any global accuracy bonuses from sets. On my build, Mids' claims that I'm going from 10% to 18.3% +Acc on two common 50 Accuracy IOs (+83.32% post-ED). But the rest of my build has +73% Accuracy from global set bonuses. If I'm right, and Mids' is failing to account for this, then that means in my build Combat Training: Offense will (with all global accuracy set bonuses active) actually go from 10% to 25.3% instead of 18.83%. That's not shabby. It would also mean that Mids' is calculating all of my Accuracies for attack powers too low.

My main (Redlynne) is an MA/SR scrapper who is softcapped to all positions, and who has Aid Self. I have experience with what Aid Self can do to a highly Defensive build. I also have experience running a Ninja/TA MM and understand the value of being able to heal pets, rather than burning inspirations healing them.

And although you might consider the net endurance per second recovery rate to be "low" for one of your builds, I consider it to be workable ... in part because I'm not going to be using a heavily endurance draining attack chain. So thanks for the advice, but I'll be sticking with what I've got, thank you.

Well, I promised a long time ago that I'd bring out Shirayukihime (again) for a Tanker Tuesday, and I'd hate to have disappointed everyone. Was amusing to have other people (like Thousand Nations) saying that they thought Ice Tankers were mythical.

Don't feel bad about being unable to pull aggro off me ... it's what Ice Tankers are really good at and known for. Ice Tankers very much subscribe to the "flypaper" strategy for grinding down the enemy. Bring 'em in close and tear them to shreds wholesale, rather than retail.

I was rather pleased by how little the Def Debuff potential of the Roman Legions mattered throughout this entire run. You'd think that an Ice Tanker with no Def Debuff Resistance would be highly vulnerable to Def Debuff Cascade Failure ... but fortunately that's not the case so long as you can keep your Defenses at (or better yet, over!) the softcap, making it hard for Foes to Debuff you in the first place. Since your best (and only?) method for achieving that is via Energy Absorption (PBAoE +Def(all), +End), you wind up with a very Brute-ish mentality and playstyle where you're actually safer when hip deep in enemies, rather than dealing with singles. It's kinda like how Rise to the Challenge fuels Willpower, except here you're adding Def(all) rather than Regeneration.

So what may have seemed like somewhat (semi?)suicidal tactics and strategies for positioning and playstyle, is actually rather "necessary" in order to keep "fueled" and Tanking when playing Ice/Ice/Arctic ... especially with all three Leadership toggles running too. In that sense, my build is actually somewhat "vampiric" in that it drains (live) PBAoE hostiles to fuel itself ... and for that to work, I have to dive in and grab all the aggro I can. With two PBAoE Auras (one damage, one taunt plus slow plus damage debuff), I inhale aggro like a wind tunnel ... and even shield charging tankers have a hard time pulling aggro off me. Once I've got a dogpile in my PBAoE ... they're Zonked. Stack the bodies by the Ice Tank.

Heck I used Hibernate by accident more times last night than I needed to use it to save myself from harm.



And as I said during the TF, I seriously felt like Obelix the Gaul a lot on last night's TF.

"Look at all those lovely Romans ... just for ME ...!"

You're forgiven.

It does and it is. With more than +60% Taunt (duration) you can even triple stack (briefly) the taunt durations of RttC. Realistically speaking, you either want to spend zero or two slots on Taunt Duration in RttC (one slot doesn't get you enough to matter) ... but with two common 50 Taunt IOs you can extend the duration of RttC's taunt aura out to 2.3 seconds. That 2.3 seconds of duration on a 1 second activation time is VERY important for being able to draw and maintain aggro through RttC alone. The cascading double/triple stack of Taunt durations means that you have enough MAG to draw and maintain aggro on Bosses reliably ... which would seem to be somewhat important if you're trying to be an aggro magnet with Willpower, as opposed to relying on your Secondary to do the job.

... and applies to the ToHit Debuff, but NOT to the Taunt.

Is it too late to /em facepalm ...?

You know what ... you're absolutely right!
Which means that all of the necessary "tech" already exists in the game to *DO* what we're (okay ... I'm) trying to do here.

All that needs to happen is for Wormhole to have its effects expanded and sequenced such that it first pushes its targets into Phase ... then Phases the Caster too(!) ... then applies all of its Stun, Knockback, Teleport effects to the targets while still in a common frame of reference of being Phased ... and then drops the Phase effect immediately after ejecting all of the targets from the Wormhole. This would mean, effectively, "grafting" an approximately 3 second Phase Shift effect into Wormhole to affect both the Targets and the Caster.

And the beauty of this is that it only works "one way" ... in that it takes targets INTO Phase if they're not already Phased, does not Phase targets which are already Phased, and does not take targets OUT of being Phased until AFTER "ejecting" them through the Wormhole back into normal space.



If Castle were interested in doing something like this ... adding a 3 second Phase Shift into Wormhole to targets and self ... here's what the coding for Wormhole would look like, with everything laid out in chronological sequence (for easy copy pasting into Dev spreadsheets):

Target:
Translucency +0.3 for 1.4s
+4.1 Intangible, Phased for 3s PvE only
+3 Intangible, Phased for 3.5s If target is a player
+14.7s Stun (mag 1) (20% chance) (after 0.2 second delay) PvE only
Translucency 0 for 1.5s (after 1.4 second delay) [Non-resistable]
+4.1 Teleport (after 2.6 second delay)
+18.625s Stun (mag 3) (after 2.7 second delay) PvE only
+4s Stun (mag 4) (after 2.7 second delay) If target is a player
Suppressed when Held, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Sleep, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Stunned, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Immobilized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Terrorized, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
+14.54 Knockback (after 2.7 second delay)
ThreatLevel -1 for 0.75s (after 2.7 second delay) If target is a player [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
RES(Teleport) +10000% for 15s (after 2.8 second delay) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
RES(Intangible, Phased) +10000% for 0.5s (after 2.8 second delay) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
+0.75s Untouchable, OnlyAffectsSelf (mag 3) (after 2.8 second delay) If target is a player [Non-resistable]


Self:
Translucency +0.3 for 2.9s (after 0.1 second delay)
+20 StealthRadius for 2.9s (after 0.1 second delay)
+222 StealthRadiusPlayer for 2.9s (after 0.1 second delay)
+2.9s Phased, Intangible (mag 3) (after 0.1 second delay)
ThreatLevel -1 for 2.7s (after a 0.3 second delay) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]

Tanker: Rise to the Challenge

Self:

• Regeneration +0.25 for 1s If NOT on a PvP map
• Regeneration +1 for 1.12s If NOT on a PvP map
  Effect does not stack from same caster
• Regeneration +0.25 for 1s If on a PvP map
• Regeneration +1 for 1.12s If on a PvP map
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Target:

• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
• +1.25s Taunt (mag 3) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
• ToHit -3.5% for 1s
  Effect does not stack from same caster

Please show where the key phrase Effect does not stack from same caster applies to the Taunt portion of effects on $Target.

I see that the Regeneration effect does not stack from same caster.
I see that the ToHit Debuff effect does not stack from same caster.
I am failing to see how the Taunt effect does not stack from same caster.

Please enlighten us as to how your assertion is correct. Extra bonus points will be awarded for showing your work.