Redlynne

Which the Jounin have natively (with upgrades), and aren't afraid to toss around.

A Mag 3 Hold, actually.

That's being ... generous ...

This assumes that not only are hostiles clustered up, but that they STAY clustered up. With the Knockback and Caltrops-Fear going on ... that's ... um ... yeah ... good luck with that. The resistance debuff will rarely be decisive for Ninja Pets in that it doesn't all that often mean your Ninjas will need to execute fewer attacks in order to defeat their targets. This really only makes a "real difference" on harder targets that tend to live longer than a mere 4 hits (Bosses, EBs and AVs, typically), but will rarely make much difference in takedown speed (solo) against Minions, and depending on how much you're concentrating the Ire of your Ninjas, has the potential to wind up as being Overkill on LTs (which "wastes" much of the potential damage gain).

Best used with TP Foe, actually ... for reasons that ought to be immediately obvious.

Because your Ninjas are just too damn survivable ...? Uh ... wot?

Change that over to +1 Fame to your choice of Hero/Vigilante/Villain/Rogue per 2 hours and you'd have a reason to run Newspaper Missions after doing your obligatory 5 Tips For The Day.

This power set allows you to make your foes float in the air while they continue to attack you while you wait for your Damage over Time attacks to defeat them. Gravity powers rely heavily on Smashing Damage which is one of the most commonly defended against, and most heavily resisted, damage types in the entire game.

Fixed it for you.

People run Quarterfield *ONCE* on any given character ... just to get the badge. After that, you never want to do that TF ever again (with that character), just because it's so forking LONG (and repetative!).

Here ... run this map 4 times.

Now run the exact same map 4 times again.

And just in case you haven't recognized the map yet ... run it another 4 times, just for gits and shiggles.



Truly the "Are we there yet, Mommy?" of TF Design.

There are people who would argue that for some girls, the two are synonymous.

(they'd be wrong ... but that's how they think)

I'm all for it ... for Ninja Masterminds (and their Ninjas). Question is ... are the Devs?

As a replacement for Detention Field ... sure.

I agree with the notion that the Oni falls into the "Wha ...?" category as far as Ninjas go when it comes to conceptualizing them. Let's just say that if I'd been on the powers team during Issues 4-6 when Ninjas were first getting defined, I'd have argued against Oni as we know him today (costume wise), and gone with something different (as far as appearance goes).

Of course, I'd also have replaced the Level 18 power with Ninja Horde ... essentially a "redo" of Gang War, except using Pedestrian Citizens character models ... who then proceed to "wade in" and do a lot of Butt Kickery via Martial Arts as "Ninjas" under your control. But that's a completely different thread/topic from what I'm aiming for here.

In point of fact, I seriously considered O2 Boost first before falling back on Cauterize. I actually had BOTH powers in the lineup for Oni in one draft, which would have made him a speed healing DEMON (or Oni, if you know your Japanese). Problem is that O2 Boost also carries with it a raft of anti-Mez Protection that would very quickly be deemed "unfair" if directly ported over, due to the number of Mez Protections offered (go look up the power), the duration of those Protections, and the recharge time of the power.

So yeah ... I considered it (already).

I'll be the first to admit that it would be NICE to have a "suppressed effects" option for Kinetic Melee ... that reduces the "light and sound" of the powerset to something that doesn't require Special Effects Gnomes(tm), bringing it more in line with a "Natural" powerset. But that's another argument that belongs in another topic (like Tunnel Rat's Art FX thread).

Fair enough.

This is where I'm thinking that "plenty of Immobilize powers" on the Ninja Pets will make all the difference (except against War Wolves, of course).

Taking that notion to its logical conclusion, you can't fix or change ANYTHING in the game once it's been released ... let alone make anything BETTER than it had been previously, because someone ... somewhere ... isn't going to like it. And to be fair ... NONE of the suggestions you'll find in this forum are "terribly likely" to be accepted and implemented.

I didn't offer this proposal in the expectation it was LIKELY to be accepted. I created it to demonstrate the "grass on the other side is greener" notion that not only Ninja Mastermind Pets could be done better than they have been (since Issue 6!) with the newer and more modern powersets and pools which make a better "fit" with Ninjas conceptually ... using a *pattern* of powers selection which could be easily ported over to other Mastermind Primaries and used to revamp other Pet Sets along similar lines (although I delve into this more in the thread in the MM forum).

That's more of a "kludge" than I'd want to put up with ... either as a Developer, or as a Player. The investment to develop the proposal remains essentially the same ... but the return on investment is (severely) lacking. That then becomes one of those "if you're going to do it at all, might as well do it for ALL rather than SOME" sorts of situations.

I'm not so sure that there would be a loss of damage with the Jounin. It would (of course) require testing to determine what, if any, DPS loss (or gain?) there might be with the changes I'm talking about ... in a holistic setting. Jounin might be less "bursty" on their damage, while at the same time able to throughput better sustained damage due to less scattering of targets (less KB+Fear, more Immobilize) and having more fast recharging powers to attack with. Jounin might also have dramatically improved survivability (vs some Foe Groups) due to the inclusion of Divine Avalanche (for additional Melee/Smash/Lethal Defense).

It's possible that a "mock up test" could be done for the differences could be done (approximately) using Architect Entertainment and creating Custom Mobs which could then beat on a Designated Reference Target (or a Player Character ...). It wouldn't be "exactly right" ... but you'd be able to get "close enough" to start drawing some conclusions. The real problem though is the mix of powersets I've chosen for this proposal won't exactly "convert faithfully" into AE all that well.

On Live, the balance of powers (not including Super Leap, Hide or Placate) is:

Genin: (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 target AoE) = 6
Jounin: (2 melee, 1 target AoE) - (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 cone) = 7
Oni: (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 cone) - (1 ranged, 1 target AoE) = 7

My proposal changes that mix to be:

Genin: (2 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 PBAoE) = 8
Jounin: (2 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 PBAoE) = 8
Oni: (2 ranged, 1 ranged heal) - (2 target AoE) - (1 ranged, 1 target AoE, 1 self rez, 1 Genin/Jounin rez) = 9

But rather than just focusing on only the pure number of powers, take a look at how many powers of particular types there are. In this case, I'd argue that the "mix" of power types is more important than the aggregate number of powers.

LIVE:
Genin: 3 melee, 2 ranged, 1 target AoE = 6
Jounin: 4 melee, 1 ranged, 1 cone, 1 target AoE = 7
Oni: 2 melee, 3 ranged, 1 cone, 1 target AoE = 7

My proposal:
Genin: 4 melee, 3 ranged, 1 PBAoE = 8
Jounin: 4 melee, 3 ranged, 1 PBAoE = 8
Oni: 3 ranged, 3 target AoE, 1 ranged heal, 1 self rez, 1 Genin/Jounin rez) = 9

If something HAD to be dropped (for "fairness" or whatever), I'd say drop the Hide+Placate on (my proposed) Genin, Jounin and Oni.

It does go without saying though that in my personal opinion, *ALL* Melee Pets, regardless of Primary, should have 2 melee + 1 ranged attacks when summoned ... not just 1 melee + 1 ranged like we see on many melee pets now.

Likewise, *ALL* Ranged Pets, regardless of Primary, should have 2 ranged attacks + 1 additional power of some kind, when summoned. That 1 additional power can either be some sort of ranged heal/buff/debuff power or a melee attack.

This would make *ALL* Mastermind Pets "less useless" when initially summoned (and during Levels 1-5, before you get Pet Training), and generally be a good (and easy!) Quality of Life upgrade for all Masterminds. So I "get" where you're coming from ... but I'm also "looking ahead" at how to make life better for all of us ... not just for Ninja Masterminds. And you can't "get there from here" unless you propose it ... and get people thinking about it.

*snort*

Nascar Ninjas ...

Personally, I think that the "mix" of stuns and knockdowns on the first three tiers of powers in Kinetic Melee, not to mention the damage buff/debuff effects, make for a better "fit" with Ninjas just on the game mechanics side of the page ... never mind the "lights and sounds" part of things. I do imagine that it would be relatively easy to have Genin use alternate sound files for their Kinetic Melee attacks, where the volume is just toned down (by half? two-thirds?) so that they aren't quite as "noisy" as Player AT attacks.

And just because it's interesting to do the cross-comparison with Martial Arts ... here's how the powers would stack up if swapping out Kinetic Melee for Martial Arts:



Call Genin: +15% Defense vs All, +50% Resistance vs Confuse, -2.0 Confuse Mag Protection, +200% Resistance vs Taunt, +2780% Jump Height, +249% Jump Speed, +85% Run Speed

• Martial Arts - Thunder Kick (Stalker recharge: 3s)
• Martial Arts - Storm Kick (Stalker recharge: 6s)
• Weapon Mastery - Web Grenade (Stalker recharge: 8s)

Train Ninjas: +5% Defense vs All, +15% Resistance to Defense Debuffs, -1.0 Confuse Mag Protection, +100% Resistance vs Taunt

• Martial Arts - Cobra Strike (Stalker recharge: 10s)
• Weapon Mastery - Shuriken (Stalker recharge: 3s)
• Ninjitsu - Hide (Stalker recharge: 20s) (Toggle)

Kuji-in Zen: +5% Defense vs All, +15% Resistance to Defense Debuffs, -1.0 Confuse Mag Protection, +100% Resistance vs Taunt

• Martial Arts - Dragon's Tail (Scrapper recharge: 14s)
• Weapon Mastery - Shuriken (Stalker recharge: 3s)
• Willpower - Rise to the Challenge (Scrapper recharge: 10s) (Toggle, Suppressed when Hidden)
• Martial Arts - Placate (Stalker recharge: 60s)

And just so you don't have to scroll the page to compare Kinetic Melee vs Martial Arts (in this context):

• Quick Strike vs Thunder Kick: 3s vs 3s
• Body Blow vs Storm Kick: 5s vs 6s
• Smashing Blow vs Cobra Strike: 7s vs 10s
• Burst vs Dragon's Tail: 15s vs 14s

Oh and for reference, Crippling Axe Kick has an 11s recharge, so it would be even slower than Cobra Strike. Just FYI.

What I take away from this (very nearly) 1-to-1 comparison of Kinetic Melee and Martial Arts for the purpose of "powering" Genin attacks is that Martial Arts would be slower and have a "shakier" attack chain, with significant pauses in it, than a comparable Kinetic Melee attack chain. Mind you, I'm not talking about the "look" of the animations of the respective powersets here ... I'm talking about how "well" the animations and recharge times "sync up" for making smooth, no pauses, attack chains. Kinetic Melee, on the other hand, would "flow" fairly smoothly through its powers with fewer pauses in the attack chain(s) over time, due to the fact that its single target powers recharge faster *and* have recharge times that are all Prime Numbers, which will aid in the deconfliction of melee attack power choices for the AI.

Also ... look at the mix of secondary effects on those powers in a direct, 1-to-1 comparison:

• Quick Strike vs Thunder Kick: 25% chance KD vs 10% chance Stun
• Body Blow vs Storm Kick: 20% chance Stun vs (nothing)
• Smashing Blow vs Cobra Strike: 33% chance Stun vs 75% chance Stun
• Burst vs Dragon's Tail: 50% chance KD vs 75% chance KD

And that's not including all the Damage Debuffing going on with Kinetic Melee, which has no counterpart in Martial Arts ... that's just looking at Stuns and Knockdowns. Add in the fact that Kinetic Melee in the context of Genin, as presented here will be cranking out Kinetic Melee attacks FASTER than they could Martial Arts attacks (because of Recharge time differentials), and things get skewed even further in Kinetic Melee's favor ... On Paper.

So I *do* get where you're coming from Bill in your criticism. I just happen to believe that Kinetic Melee is a far better "fit" for Genin than (the legacy) Martial Arts powerset is, in terms of Game Mechanics, and the effects those game mechanics have on the survivability of Ninjas as Mastermind Pets. Martial Arts really needs "more attacks" and/or "more global recharge" going for it in order to smooth things out than is really practical (in my opinion) in the context of Mastermind Pets.

When I started writing this up, I began with the two Shuriken attacks up front and put in Web Grenade last ... but then came to the realization that Web Grenade is "more needed" for Ninjas than a quick ranged attack like Shuriken. So I made Web Grenade the "default" ranged attack, with the Shuriken getting added (twice) by the Level 6 and 32 powers.

Yeah. It was one of those, "well why wasn't it done like this in the first place?" kind of things when I stumbled on the synergies involved. Of course ... to be fair ... the Weapon Mastery Epic Pool and Kinetic Melee weren't exactly "available" back in Issues 4-6 when Cryptic Studios was working on City of Villains and getting everything ready for that launch.

That's more about "Deconfliction" in the Pet AI Decision Algorithm than anything else. As we discovered with Custom Mobs in AE, when you give the AI "too many powers" it tends to "choke" on deciding what power to use next, causing gaps in attack chains (that shouldn't be there) and other weirdness. By giving Oni a set of Ranged Only powers, it should "help" the Decision Algorithm process better and position Oni better thanks to deconfliction with the (now omitted) melee attacks. Yeah, the Fire Sword powers were "cool" and all ... but the effects they had on the Pet AI Decision Algorithm were ... less than ideal.