Ravenswing

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see now this will be REALLY interesting to hear how PvP effects PvE... whats char builds? The Zones? Chars being in the zones too much? please do enlighten me

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Er, no, he means that a tremendous amount of work has gone into PvP content which would otherwise have gone into PvE.

However, my PvE character is currently missioning in Warburg exactly because it's the only place I could do missions. There's a big hole in PvE content in the late 30s which I had fallen into. No new content has been generated in that area, the only place I could get instanced missions to run was Warburg, and it happens to pay a lot of xp for those missions.

Beyond that, I'd estimate that a huge number of the nerfs we've been suffering over the past 10 months wouldn't have happened without the need to bring everyone down to the mortal level to make it possible to balance PvP.

They didn't actually lie, because they chose words which made it possible to change PvE as much as they liked for PvP, as long as they could find the most meagre PvE justification.

Also, if I spend a lot of time in PvP zones, I'm going to consider picking powers I would otherwise ignore. The Leadership Pool for example, more or less pointless to a Scrapper, but it might give me a tiny edge in PvP Zones. That's a power I've picked which gives me little or nothing, except in PvP where it might save my butt from a Stalker.

Feeling enlightened?

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just a quick question here tho as i been reading this for about a good 45 mins now to understand the arguements... SINCE WHEN DOES CoH OR CoV 'FORCE' U INTO PVP?!?!

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The point of my post, was that the kind of person who makes that statement is as bad as the kind of person who goes "suck it up, it's PvP". I wasn't making the statement as an expression of my own opinion.

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Quite.

However, DJ, actually, the game used to force you to go into a PvP zone, to a location where you could be engaged in PvP, and the only choice you had was that you could avoid it by outlevelling all your contacts since the only mission they would give you would be to enter a PvP zone. Yes, you only had to enter the 'safe zone', but since they aren't actually safe, the point is kind of moot.

This has since been changed, and I'm very glad that Cryptic actually visibly listened to player comments on that one.

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haven't given it the slightest chance

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Just FYI again (do I really have to keep repeating this?).

I have tried PvP. I think it's a massively unbalanced, badly constructed, retrofit to a game that was never designed to have PvP in it.

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The arguments and flames that you read here just aren't present in the PvP zones on the whole.

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Actually, no, because the profanity filter on here blocks most of the rude bits. Go sit in Warburg when it gets 'busy' and listen to the broadcast chat.

Please, do go have fun. Promote Community Spirit. I can't stress enough how much that's important to the survival of this game. (That was serious.)

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I just seee no relevance from judging CoV/CoH PvP from experience of other MMO's.

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I'm sure aisla has had bad experiences on other MMO's but why say PvP in this game is [censored] just because she doesnt like it in others? I wouldn't start saying FFXI is boring therefore this game must be boring.

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Okay, thing is that saying a game is [censored] because another game is [censored] is stupid. The two games are different, assuming it isn't the same production company and they aren't linked, that's just being silly.

PvP, on the other hand isn't a game, it's an aspect of many games. Comparing PvP on one game to PvP on another is not only valid, but perfectly reasonable, as I would discuss the relative merits of RP in WoW vs RP in CoH, or the spell system in D&D vs the spell system in RuneQuest.

Now, the mechanics of PvP in CoH aren't the same as those in NwN or T4C or WoW, but the mentality is something else. The threads in the PvP forums suggest that the mentality is very similar across the computer gaming world. Hence, her experiences in other games apply to another, CoX.

Edit: and I think the above answers most of Anaesthesia's post too.

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I personaly dont like Warburg I dont like the fact its Hero vs Hero vs villains vs villains it just dont seem right.

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We agree on something. In beta, Bloody Bay was FFA, Warburg was HvV. This made sense since the radiation from the meteor fragments was supposed to be messing with your brains and making you over-agressive. I have absolutely no idea why they changed it, but I think it was a stupid move.

Oh, reason I'm not in Siren's Call or Bloody Bay... I hate exemping down that far and losing Teleport. It's irritating.

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Its not all negative, honest

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Never said it was.

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I was never interested in teh arenas before

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Yes, neither was just about everyone else. Why weren't you?

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Its a shame your only experiance has been negative but rushing to a mission your not gonna take in too much around you, but have a peeek in the other zones you might be suprised.

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My experience has been part negative and part laughable, actually. And rushing to missions you take in everything around you, because you're very busy looking for threats. I don't like PvP, I avoid it, my build is not designed (specifically) for it. Doesn't mean I won't engage in it if attacked, and the best way to be ready is to know there's a potential threat out there before it gets in range.

Zeph, I think you actively avoid reading Aisla's posts unless you plan to call her negative. Did you bother reading the one where she explained why she is so negative about PvP?

She's been into MMOs for years, and she's been plagued by PKers for years. I've watched her screen as geeky little idiots camp outside the entry safe-zone in T4C destroying anything that tried to get out. Why? Because they could. And why could they? Because the game's GMs wouldn't do anything about it.

My personal experience in Warburg is that, when you actually find another hero/villain, they don't behave particularly well. So, IMO, the community spirit is suffering from having PvP in the game, not gaining.

I understand you used the word 'farming' in there as a negative statement meant to insult Aisla and anyone else doing the same. At least we are there, in the zone, actually doing missions that improve your ability to splatter other toons over the scenery. Personally, I do dash from mission to mission and I'm quite happy to describe it as 'farming' because that's exactly what I'm doing. If Cryptic have been stupid enough to replace Dreck with an alternative farming mechanism which they think is legitimate due to the potential for PvP, then that's their lookout, not yours. While I'm dashing, however, if someone wants to try to stop me, then they are welcome to try (as long as it doesn't constitute harassment). So far, two have, and they were both pretty much total cowards (Rock Eagle says he takes pot shots at me, but doesn't count in the two, I haven't noticed the pot shots ).

I have a pretty good idea where the 'heart' of PvP is, and in CoX, that heart is in the arena, holding friendly matches with people you can trust to follow a few ground rules. (Maybe I should have tried S4, but I really don't have the head for high-end PvP so I doubt I'd have got very far and it didn't interest me.) The PvP Zones, especially Warburg, represent no kind of 'heart' from my view. They are places designed to appeal to people who don't like rules or friends, unless they happen to be useful for now. I'm not saying everyone in the Zones is like that, I am saying that the Arenas could easily fulfill the requirement for 'fair' PvP and the fact they are largely empty shows that 'fair' PvP isn't something the majority want.

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but the zones seem to hav taken off and won a lot of new fans

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You think so?

My only experience is with Union, so forgive me if other servers are different (though I remember hearing Defiant was quiet). The absolute most I've seen in activity in Warburg was Sunday when I got attacked twice (badly). I know there are people out there running missions, because I see the messages, but I hardly ever actually see anyone.

So unless the only villains in Warburg are Stalkers, it hasn't taken off all that much.

Well, if you said that (i.e. it's not for you) I'd say "fine, it isn't for everyone, not even me at times." If you come out and just say it sucks, I'd argue. Had this discussion with KlGrAn recently, in fact.

As for PvP, well, my posts are negative because I see a lot of negative stuff from PvP. I've listed my PvP experiences (in CoH) and I'd say they were pretty negative ones, wouldn't you?

I've also stated that I quite enjoy a bit of friendly PvP, and eventually I'll get around to letting FFM have a go at War Crow in the Arena... and that's just it, my PvP 'needs' would be adequately met by the Arenas, and I feel those were an unwanted addition to the game that are largely underused. In short, a waste of development effort.

And I'm oddly happy Warburg exists. It got me out of the big hole that was content in the late 30s. I farmed Warburg for the xp because the other methods were painfully slow. I can't help but think that PvP isn't an adequate control for amount of xp available from missions there and that they'll have to cut the bonuses down a bit. Perhaps as things develop it will get tougher. I hope so, as my avatar suggests, I've had enough of 'nerfs'.

Just out of interest, do the people in there for the PvP ever actually do the missions?


PS. If you have a spare moment and the inclination, PM me about GG. I'd be interested to know if anything in particular put you off. Not trying to get you to come if you don't like it.

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And does that mean that if Ellie bumps into Crow in Warburg

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Well, currently Crow is an OOC levelling toon, so he wouldn't have a go at Ellie unless Ellie had a go at him. IC, she'd have to be threatening children with horrible death again. Crow made it plain on a number of occaisions that he had no issue with killing (and I do mean killing) other heroes if there was no other way to stop them doing something wrong. Otherwise, any hero is a useful asset not to be touched (hell, he let Nevermore live, despite everything ).

Thanks. 'nuff said, really.

Let's see, my PvP so far...

Some illusion controller sat in Superior Invisibility spammed Blinds at me. I couldn't attack him, so I popped a BF and ran on to the next Tour waypoint. Very heroic.

A Stalker got onto the boat in Warburg and picked me to target. He 1-shotted me. I had no chance. Fair enough, and it did point out to me that the safe zones are a load of ball...derdash.

Someone, maybe a Stalker, tried to take me out outside a mission door. Either I saw him first, or he missed. When I actually hit him, he bolted like a scared bunn and I never saw him again. Boring.

A brute tried to hit four of us as we were entering a mission. He'd been near the manhole cover when we arrived, and ran, but decided to come back and make a try when we'd clicked on the door, hence no chance we could return fire. Apparently he had no chance of doing any damage either, I was the only one noticed and he didn't hit anyone. So, cowardly and pointless.

No, there are no rules or ettiquette to PvP. And I'd humbly submit that FFM is wrong about the posts here being the majority of players. Very few people in PvP fight strangers fairly. Quite frankly, if you want to fight fair, go to the Arena. If someone attacks one of mine in a PvP zone, I'll use every dirty trick I know to survive. (Shame I don't know any dirty tricks. )

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I could of course be wrong about this in pvp.

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You are wrong. AS has a certain time (short but is still there) which requires you to stand still in order for it to land. Move with ss or vertically up and you interrupt AS. Its the easiest thing to do ever. Also remember when pvp dont blast loud music from speakers cause you might want to hear that huge sound that come pre AS strike and is actually the best way to avoid it. Its extremely easy to avoid AS strikes like that.

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That isn't what he means, Tainted. AS has a long time, about 5 seconds in which you must not move or it interrupts. However, the target can move as much as it likes during that period, once you start the strike, your target is nailed.

This is why 'constant movement' is about the weakest defense there is against a Stalker. No one actually moves around all the time, and it just takes a few seconds of standing still to get nailed.


You may be interested to note I got my first PvP action yesterday. Someone tried to take me out on the way into a mission door while I was waiting for some friends. I think he missed, but when I turned and attacked him, he ran off. So, so far PvP hasn't been too exciting.

Oh, there was the Brute that ran away when I was heading to a mission door, then tried to attack us as we went in. We couldn't have responded, I assume he was hoping to kill someone as they went through the door without any resistance.

Hmmm, my opinion of PvPers is going downhill quite fast.

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I was asked nicely to stop as two people wanted to go head to head so I obliged, if they had been rude or arrogant then if I could manage it (most unlikely sad to say) I would attempt to turn them into sushi.

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Well done, many are far less polite.

Got to agree with the general tone. If you're in a PvP zone, you should expect to be attacked.

PvP is hardly new, though, just new to this game. A lot of the newer players out there bought CoV because of the PvP aspect. They know exactly what PvP is and have probably been doing it for quite a while.

Um, I think I got mine the second time I completed one. Maybe it's random.

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Positional Defence you pretty much need to run all toggles all the time (though saying that I am L19 and I only have melee defence)

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You don't anyway. I have ninjutsu's ranged and melee defenses and run them circumstantially since I can't yet provide enough end red to not have some endurance issues.

Particularly, if I'm in close combat with my targets, I turn off Dangersense. Some targets only use ranged attacks worth avoiding even at melee range.

If you have ninjato, your best defense power is Divine Avalanch, giving about a 20% def boost to lethal and melee attacks, which, with 3 def encs and overlap, can get you up to about 70% def bonus.

Dimension, you're playing a dark melee type, aren't you? Probably with Dark Epic?

They aren't scrappers, they're mutated controllers. Though, I have a DM/regen... and to be honest, I don't find him much more exciting.

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If they nerfed stalker's AS so unless you took enrages you could not one shot someone, it wouldn't bother me.

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No, the main suggested nerf was to arrange it so that it was simply not possible to 1-shot someone. The assumption is that it would work a bit like falling damage, but only from full hit points. You would always end up with 'a few' hits. So, popping insps, using Build-up, doesn't matter, nothing you did would take away those last few hits. Apart from your second strike, of course.

And another thing: my Stalker is nin/nin and this has got to be the first time I've ever had a real embarassemnt of choice in the power picks. At one point I had three potentially very useful powers to pick from. With the next two picks going on travel power and status protection, I'm still going to have three powers waiting to be selected when I get to level 18!

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What would be ideal is if missions spawned outside a pvp area would not force you into a pvp area... and then missions spawned in Bloody Bay, Sirens, Warbug etc would keep you in that area... is that whats supposed to happen at present?

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Yes.

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Or is the mission I have at the moment literlally just to talk to this poerson - I don't have to go to the pvp area if I don't want to??

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Yes, that's what bridger was explaining. The mission takes you to a Longbow Liaison Officer, who tells you what kind of PvP Zone you could enter, then tells you who to go see in the zone if you want missions inside the zone.

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I don't remember the exact numbers now

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I just added it up for my last mission... 49324 xp, on Rugged. I think I underestimated.

Ditto, that and the soul-sucking thing are great. I could see DC being less use in a PvP situation than in PvE, less chance of massed targets. Both those powers have a relatively long animation time as well, but that's an issue with a lot of DM powers.

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PS. The answer to boredom currently, is Warburg. Running the same two or three missions over and over again is still boring, but you get so much xp you don't care.

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Post 40 replace Warburg with the Shadow Shards

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Do they give an average of 20k per solo mission, at 10-15 minutes per mission? If so, I feel I may have misjudged them.

Edit: 20k might be a bit high, but it's HUGE.

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Depends on your mentality and how you play i suppose. I'm all for diving into a large groups head first and trying to stay alive, stupid scrapper approach. I've seen others play a more cautious mop up the edge of a fight tactic which offers very little excitement IMO.

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I do pretty much the same thing. Find a load of Freaks up at the back end of Crey's Folly, dive in.

Result: after about four groups, I get bored.

Yes, Scrappers tend to be boring, especially if they have an empath as back-up. Hikari-Hime likes to call them "wind-up kill toys". Scrapper fighting: 2,1,2,3,2,1,2,3,2,1,2,3... Reconstruction... 2,1,2,3,2,1,2... you get the picture. About as exciting as watching paint dry.

IMHO, anyone who finds the actual process of Scrapper combat 'fun' has a boredom threshold beyond measure.

PS. The answer to boredom currently, is Warburg. Running the same two or three missions over and over again is still boring, but you get so much xp you don't care.