Ravenswing

Just wondering. All the Creative Genius winners seem to have been art recently and there's not much fiction to be seen.

Is anyone still doing it, or has it all moved off to Roleplaying?

I think the manga one is kind of more Golden Age western, but aside from that, they are really good pieces.

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If the above fact is indeed true (it may or may not be the case, perhaps secretly the writer really did want this division of heroes to happen, even on a subconscious level...we simple don't know)

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Yeah, we do. Perhaps you should have read the start of the thread.

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I'm afraid I don't fully understand your comments, Ravenswing. Surely the purpose of all marketing, advertising and polictical propaganda (in whatever form) is to convince the individual to think/act/buy in the way prescribed by the writer?

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Yes. And what exactly does that have to do with people attempting to enjoy thmselves in a game setting?

I think you got the wrong end of the stick there. I was talking about the effects of the plot on the players, not the effects of the petition on the characters.

Several of Ammon's comments have read just like a psychology student who has started up a project to find out what would happen if this bit of disinformation was spread, and then is kind of shocked when people don't like discovering it was all done in the name of science.

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Is it the writer's fault that the reader has reacted in a wholly predictable fashion, or is that the responcibility of the reader?

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In this case, it's the writer's fault. Are you honestly telling me that White Vampyre wrote this petition with the intention of turning hero against hero, and the public against their guardians? Because if you are, then that's exactly the opposite of what Ammon has said. However, that is exactly the predictable result of this petition hitting the streets.

I'm one of the oldest, if not the oldest, so I naturally think youngsters are nieve and impetuous, because you all are.

I haven't done a story on Polyhymnia's reaction to this, but she would probably refuse to sign the document as is, or she would sign it without reading it, depending on how distracted she was. It really hasn't got anything to do with age, but stereotypically, it would be the younger heroes who would signa and then seek other signatures without considering how the petition sounds.

Also, one of Ammon's stories (pretty sure it was him) features an older hero telling a younger one that anyone who doesn't read the petition the way WV intended it to be read is basically a fool, indicating that older heroes can also be nieve.

(( I just have to say this: this thread has really thrown up some absolutely fantastic imagery. Quilla's character there is absolutely great. There was also a hero further up the list lighting is ciggarette off the flaming fist of a Damned he had just floored, which is just a really fantastic anti-hero image. Well done folks. Keep it up. ))

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that would have been entertaining too - it would have sparked it's own plot about how society is cruel for locking up a hero that wanted to "share the glory" i'm sure we could have knocked out a good few tabloid reports about it and achieved the same civil unrest in the end

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I tend to doubt it simply because a lot of well respected heroes would have stepped in and made long speeches which would have basically drowned out the noise of WV.

It would have been interesting, but on a more personal level, affecting WV and Brit and their friends, and probably the people who had got her locked up in the first place. In the old days, we would have wheeled out Stargazer or Mindblank or similar and there would have been deep, meaningful dredging into Suzi's character while Britanic stood on the outskirts wringing his hands.


Meanwhile: Over in the General Discussion forum there's a thread about 'funky' builds which is a very interesting read and which has come down to people discussing the original post and whether it means one thing or another. It's a very interesting parallel with this plot, and it's way cute that a 'real world' argument is blowing up in just the same way that the 'rp world' argument has.

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People rarely like being experimented on, especially with any kind of mind game. Especially when engaging in a hobby that's designed to be fun.

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I had always thought that was the function of most roleplay - it being an excercise in being someone else and thinking like them.

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Let me rephrase: People don't like being experimented on secretly.

Also, I think you totally mistook what I meant by 'mind games'. I enjoy thinking like another person, it is one of the reasons I roleplay. What I don't need is someone manipulating me or my characters without my consent.

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Raven's right there - there's no "right" way to read it, unfortunately a word document isn't the best way to get people to instantly see the original point of view - i reccomend demonstarations or newscasts in future to start off a plot like this.

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Ah, but then there would have been a small scene where a few heroes take White Vampyre aside, assess the situation and have her admitted to a psycho ward for evaluation, rather than a plot.

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and I must say that this current piece of work is really amazing in its power to engage the "community"!

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Unfortunately, I think a lot of that engagement has been out of an OOC sense of annoyance.

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I sincerely hope that this controversy amongst the gamers are purely IC, and that it's mainly the characters that react to the "badly worded" petition.

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Frankly, I think it's been both IC and OOC from a lot of people. I'm now reasonably happy that Ammon had no intention of actually insulting anyone, but I think he needs to be more careful about the way things are phrased and how he presents plot.

As you said in reply to Bridger, Ammon, the reaction of people to the poor wording is part of the plot. However, your characters' behaviour, particularly with regard to Grav Mistress, has bordered on OOC malice, even if that's not what you intended.

What has concerned me most is that I don't think you understood what you were getting into when you started, and I think it took you too long to acknowledge that this was assured of causing OOC as well as IC issues. Several of your posts have set about blaming the petition's readers for interpreting the petition in a negative light, refusing to accept that the wording is anti-hero even if unintentionally so. I'm currently assuming that you were trying hard not to reveal White Vampyre's emotional and mental state until you had to as part of the plot, but it's easy to see your posts as suggesting that everyone else was just seeing things that weren't there.

I'm currently quite happy with the way this plot is going, but only after the OOC explanation of a few things. I don't know how you guys are used to having plots run, but in an open RP environment like this, it's usually best if the players have some idea of your intentions when you start.

In this case, we were presented with a petition written by a hero in such a way that it not only downplays the efforts of heroes, but also insults them and claims their efforts are worth nothing and are actually making things worse. It came out of the blue (to most of us).

When we reacted to it in character, we are told out of character that it is our interpretation of the words which gives it the insulting slant, and that we have basically read it wrong.

As I've said to my own partner on at least one occaision, if you want to run psychology experiments on other people, don't expect to see good OOC results from doing so. People rarely like being experimented on, especially with any kind of mind game. Especially when engaging in a hobby that's designed to be fun.

Global: @Ravenswing
Server: Union for roleplay, but you may find me on Defiant and you're welcome to try to roleplay with one of my characters there.

Characters you might meet:

War Crow aka Dafydd Cerwys
A welshman who originally came to Paragon City at the behest of the goddess Morrigan, or so he thought. He is now the Chief Operating Officer of Paragon Secure Couriers, a company which employs superpowered couriers for added speed and security. He's a magician and swordsman.

Jason Caine
An immortal, Jason is a student of necromancy and some other aspects of dark magic. He currently holds a position as a lecturer in Thaumatergical Research at the university in Salamanca.

Velvet Vengence aka Anastasia Kade
A glamour model who once appeared on the cover of Playboy, Anna retired from that life to have a family only to have them killed one day in a bombing. She became a hero to find the killers of her husband and daughter. She is a common sight opening hospitals and schools, anything involving children. her adopted daughter, Jessica, is the current wearer of the Zortel suit.

Lilith Pendragon
Jason Caine's nemesis and sometimes lover, Lilith is even older than he is. A skilled assassin, Lilith likes nothing better than to plot the downfall of others and is constantly up to something. She can be found in the Rogue Isles, where she is observing the activities of Arachnos.

Glory
Glory is a bit strange and breaks lots of roleplay rules, as long as it's funny. She has done some fairly serious roleplay in her time, but mostly if you see her, don't expect me to be serious.

Enherezza
A strange alien girl who turned up in Paragon City about two years ago, Enherezza eventually killed someone and was locked up in the Zig. She was freed in one of the recent jail breaks organised by Arachnos and is now working as a huntress in the Rogue Isles, doing what she was made to do.

Polyhymnia Brown
A 'mad scientist', Poly is a mutant who uses her exceptional intellect to fashion devices which don't quite obey the laws of physics. She only does hero work to test her gadgets. At least that's what she tells everyone.

Operative Seven
An android working for some branch of SERAPH, Seven is the prototype for a mobile combat unit designed to take on situations too tough for the PPD.

There's a full list of my toons in a link in my sig block.

Type of roleplay: I tend to assume, if someone randomly says something that could be IC or OOC, that it's OOC. Most of the people playing don't roleplay. In roleplay environments, I assume everything is IC.
Can be contacted: In game or via the forums.
Times on: Anytime between about 1800 and midnight UK time, especially by prior arrangement.

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Any characters with the power to read the mind of White Vampyr just by holding a printed copy of a petition she wrote may have access to just one true interpretation. If your character has such powers, please feel free to PM me, here or in game.

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Psychometry, the ability to read the history of an object. Probably need to get your hands on the original draft though.

Crow could do it, given a dozen difficult obtain ingredients and a faily lengthy ritual, but he's not going to put the effort in. Glory could do it if she really wanted to and it was amusing, which it wouldn't be, or absolutely required to dig out of a plot hole, which it isn't.

Jason could do it by summoning a demon or a long dead spirit, but he's trying to keep off the hard stuff.

Sister Psyche could do it by locating White Vampyre across the city and just reading her mind.

However, what good any of that would do is pretty open to question. It might establish the motives for writing the petition, but the motives would only count for setting up someone to blame. What's interesting is the various viewpoints of the people explaining why they are or are not going to sign the thing. which, I think, is your original concept for the plot.

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seeing as I know as much about RP as I do about space curve theory

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Well, basically, space is curved. See, roleplaying is easy.

I gave my thoughts on the other thread. Like I said, anything is worth having.

Anastasia Kade sat in the back of a yellow can heading for her apartment in Founders' Falls. Out the window, Skyway's grey architecture was in no way improved by the overcast weather. Anna had been out of the city for a couple of weeks, on a shoot in Thailand, and the drop in temperature between there and north eastern America had the model dressed in significantly more clothing than she would otherwise have worn. Her phone rang.

Caller ID said the call was from Talos Island High School. She flipped the phone open, recalling that Velvet Vengence was due to open a new sports wing or something tomorrow. "Hello, Velvet speaking."

The nasal voice on the other end of the phone belonged to the headmistress. "Mrs Kade? This is Marylee Hope, from Talos High? I hope I'm not interrupting anything?"

"No, of course not. Is this about the opening tomorrow?"

"Yes, I'm afraid so." 'Afraid?' Anna remained quiet as the woman hurried on. "Someone, a hero I believe, started somekind of petition to have the heroism of the ordinary man recognised by the city..."

"That sounds very noble," Velvet interjected.

There was a small pause from the headmistress. "Um, yes, unfortunately the wording of this petition has resulted in a degree of... friction. I'm afraid that several of the parents here have requested that we get someone else to do the opening tomorrow. Someone... um, normal."

"You did explain that I'm not actually superpowered or anything, right?"

"I tried to, but it seems that they think anyone in a costume is, hang on, let me read this one to you: 'these costumed freaks are nothing but gloryhounds taking taxpayers money for their own sel-gratification and corrupting our youth.' I'm sorry, but I've had to back down."

Anna considered this for a second before speaking. "Thanks for being honest with me Mrs Hope, and I'm really sorry that I won't be able to attend tomorrow. Be assured that this won't affect any of those donations coming to the school, it really isn't your fault."

Anna closed the connection as the cab turned toward the Founders' tunnel. This would need looking into. Who did she know that had been in the city over the past week or two...

(( Some slightly more creative effort for you. Be warned, I may have to unleash the power of Anna's Pathos! ))

Shame we can't ask Bridger to split the IC and OOC responses somehow. I think I've said all I see worth saying until my brain becomes capable of thinking IC, or Ammon responds to my questions in this thread or another. Back to the regularly scheduled programming.

Pretty sure I was in BB on Union last week. There was one other person there, and that was another villain. I did a patrol.

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I think that the original character (name? Can't be bothered to look it up right now) was intending this to be a good piece of PR for super-heroes, working with the non-supers to make a better Paragon.

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Eeek! Actually, my analysis would go with White Vampyr (that's the name) feeling enormously frustrated with having powers and not wanting them and sublimating that into a desire for the powered heroes of Paragon to have their recognition factor reduced. However, I wouldn't say that was her concious reason for starting the petition. Her massively OTT reaction to those she meets who don't like the petition is a major factor in my reaching this conclusion.

And, FFM, guilt is one of those things which does not bow before the dictates of logic.

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No one is attempting to malign the sentiment behind the petition

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Okay, this is where it gets complicated, and I think part of the problem is that IC and OOC are getting really mixed up.

IC, my character War Crow does actually believe that the general populace of Paragon City aren't very deserving of such recognition. They are mostly sheep, and if they aren't sheep, they are corrupt. IC, Lilith Pendragon is looking to work out how Lord Recluse has got his claws into White Vampyr because she thinks it is a possibility and bears examination. She sees the petition as being carefully written to produce the effect it has.

OOC, I'm thinking almost like Lilith, but Ammon isn't answering me about whether this IC split was what he (?, sorry, unsure of the correct pronoun) intended or whether he really believes that there's nothing anti-hero in the petition.

As the first person to respond negatively to the petition (and what I meant by not putting in much creative effort was that it really didn't take more than a few seconds to write that; I don't call that effort) I feel a bit responsible for a sudden split developing in the community which is heading for an OOC split at this rate.

Since I'm not even roleplaying much currently, that bothers me.


Edit PS. Nice piece of writing, btw.

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Open letter to all Heroes:

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Sorry, could I just ask if this is in or out of character?

If it's in character and it gets widely viewed, it's going to make things a lot worse.

If it's out of character, then it's really not appropriate.

I'm currently assuming it's IC.

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Once you go OOC on plot like this, that plot is invariably ruined.

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That would be my fault then, I asked whether the wording of the petition was designed to promote the IC disagreements it has caused, or if it was simply poor wording. I'm not sure I've ever had an answer, but I think Ammon has essentially suggested that people are reading into it what they want to.

I think the paragraph Veskit quoted is probably the clearest bit of anti-hero propaganda in there, and having heard the kind of thing White Vampyr comes out with when defending the petition, it's clear that she has issues with heroes, even though she theoretically is one.

I actually have no problem with that, it's a nice expression of someone who is very, very bitter over gaining powers - who sees the powered as being the source of all the trouble in the world, because powers are the source of all her problems.

I'm just a bit worried, however, that you seem to be OOC trying to suggest that the petition was carefully written to avoid anti-hero comments.


Oh, and you can expect something a bit more creative later, when I'm awake enough to think myself into Velvet's character. ))

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Then there's really no point in discussing it with you. I'll save my replying efforts for the ones interested in the storyline opportunities.

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Well, thank you for that cursory dismissal. And with that, I shall be happy to treat your roleplay opportunities as they deserve to be treated.

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hehe was fun in sirens the other night raven....even if u did get whamped :P

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I think that's addressed to me, and I don't remember being in Siren's Call recently. I get flattened in RV a week or two ago, but that was Syn and Cel.

I also play on Union mostly. I only really have villains on Defiant and none of them are high enough level to get into Siren's.

(( All OOC:

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The only possible problem there is that one could infer the writer is suggesting that only the non super-powered are 'real' heroes.

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Actually, it doesn't imply anything, it downright says that superpowered heroes aren't real heroes. You're going on about people reading between the lines, but you are adding emphasis after the fact which isn't there in the original. 'The city' cannot idolise anything, and 'the city' generally means the people within it. Not the government, or aspects of the governing structure, but everyone.

Not only that, but it's historically inaccurate and anyone who spends any time being a hero in Paragon City knows darn well that the 'idolisation' of heroes is a very recent phenomena, though it operates in cycles. Does the phrase "maybe you capes aren't so bad afterall," ring any bells?

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She has clearly and categorically stated that it is 'the city' as a whole that is doing this

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White Vampyr may have attempted to do that last night, but the petition doesn't.

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and at no time in that paragraph assigns any responsibility for this on the heroes themselves, not even in suggestion.

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I think I'd have to agree with you there, but then I haven't implied such and I don't think any of the replies on this thread have implied it either. Could be wrong, of course.

Crow's objection is that it's a heavily blinkered view of reality, demonstrating that the person who started the petition doesn't realise what a mess those 'ordinary heroes' get into left to their own devices. Others have given the opinion (and I think it's quite justified) that the petition belittles the efforts of superpowered heroes.

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As a writer, that people can't seem to actually read between the lines without inserting their own bias could be annoying in other circumstances. As a player, it has been a wonderful opportunity to exploit a common foible and create some beautiful in game tension and attention.

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I also find it rather amusing. You're actually convincing yourself that people are reading things that aren't there, while convincing yourself that you didn't write something which actually is there.

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and put so much creative energy into the Petition thread

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I have to admit that I've put almost no creative energy in there. Out of interest, have you read either of the two novels Web of Arachnos or The Freedom Phalanx?

(( Out of character, and out of interest, it is really badly worded and it does insult super-powered heroes. The first paragraph is designed to set your teeth on edge. Was this actually by design, or purely accidental? Or would you rather not say? ))

Lilith Pendragon watched the "exchange of views" in Pocket D with some amusement. She wondered how Recluse had got his claws into this White Vampyre girl. The idea that a hero could be out to sow discord among the other heroes without Recluse having some hand in it was... unlikely, but then Lilith always saw wheels turning within wheels, even when they weren't there.

Whatever. It could only be a good thing. whenever the populace of Paragon City began to feel that their heroes were somehow not quite as important those with less selfless motives always benefitted. It might be wise to see to it that this 'petition' came to the attention of a wider audience.

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I don't have MoG yet (and I will), but even without it

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It's actually not worth using DA with MoG. MoG can already pretty much cap out defense on most enemies, and adding in the defensive bonus from DA doesn't really help. (For the pedants: Yes, I know defense doesn't have a cap. I mean that MoG will floor the ToHit on the majority of opponents.) since they changed the way Def affected your accuracy, DA+MoG actually became less likely to keep you alive since anything above a minion now has more chance of hitting you than it did prior to the changes.

Just FYI. A kat/regen Scrapper is still a pretty tough beastie.