Quason

Not had much experience with Elude on Stalkers (SR isn't a popular secondary), but Overload seems a bit easier to punch through than MoG for some reason. Not sure why that would be, maybe it's my imagination.

Definately the same power, but the Stalker actually gets a bit more use out of it. The best use of MoG for a Stalker in PvP is against players or teams that can see him. Since you'll be reducing your opponents' chance to hit you down to the 5% minimum in many cases, it becomes extremely different for your opponents to interrupt your assassin strike. Essentially, MoG gives a Stalker free PvP kills in full view of the public and there's often not a damned thing anyone can do about it.

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Given the nerfing that was given to Regen with IH and MoG along with Phase Shift and Kheldian's Quantum Flight, these were certainly PvP nerfs. I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair). I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate.

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Stalkers are very binary. They're either killing someone or they are dying.

However, they're one of the few (the only?) AT in the game that can essentially be "good" in PvP with only 2 powers. I'm not sure that's fair. A lot of people need to carefully consider their whole build to be strong at PvP, but stalkers get by pretty well with just 2 powers.

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I've never read a post that was 100% wrong.

Until now.

If you think Stalkers get by in PvP with only two powers then you have a lot to learn.

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*nod* You're right. It's 4 powers actually: Hide, Stealth, Build Up, and Assassin Strike.

Those 4 powers have gotten me several thousand kills in PvP on my Stalker.

Actually you're talking about something of an arms race then, concidering the fact that */EA Stalkers are quite good against Storm users, and that secondary has become FAR more popular since the repulsion protection was added to Entropy Shield. The proponderance of TP Foe (which it also protects against) and Hurricane in PvP makes */EA much more useful than it might otherwise be.

In other words, rolling a Stormie isn't an effective counter against Stalkers anymore, so if that's indeed why they've become FotM, it's a bad reason.

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Is this the part where I make a mild sarcastic comment about Stalkers?

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I fail to see the relevance to the discussion, but sure, why the hell not? Go for it.

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The solution? AVOID THEM.

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That'd be great if it weren't for the fact that Storm/* defs and */Storm trollers have become the PvP FotM toon of choice lately. You can't swing a dead cat in SC or Warburg, at least on Champion server, without hitting about a dozen of them.

So then, the response to that becomes the same as the reponse to the meleer who can't kill the stormie - get a team. Takes us right back to that team-on-team balance goal.

Pretty weak counter, don't you think? I mean, if you force someone to log, wouldn't you concider that the very definition of griefing? In fact, "you can just log off and back on" was the rallying cry of the hospital campers not so long ago if you'll recall.

Isn't that worse, though? You have the capability to lock a regenner into a corner so that he can take no action against you whatsoever (assuming he doesn't have friends or Teleport) and hold him there indefinately. Not only is that unbalanced in the stormie's favor, it's HUGE potential for griefing. That in and of itself is a very disturbing problem.

*edit* Note: that doesn't mean I think anything needs to be nerfed. Forcefield can do the same thing with FB, but I certainly wouldn't say FF needs to be nerfed. I do think there's some sort of problem with repulsion powers and their potential for griefing that needs to be addressed, however. I remember a particular arena match once on test where a forcefielder trapped me in a corner on my BS/Reg scrapper and just held me there for the entire 10 minutes, just so I couldn't help my team.

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For me, the stun and Web Grenades almost always miss or when they do, do nothing.

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Stun Grenade is actually a fantastic anti-Hurricane power, it's just that you can't enhance it, so it's always going to have the base 50% to-hit chance in PvP.

But yeah, I do get what you're saying. I think what you actually have a problem with, when you get right down to it, is the somewhat paper/rock/scissors nature of PvP. There are just some ATs/Powersets that you're probably never going to be able to beat no matter what you do. They're the rock to your scissors.

Unfortunately, the only answer anyone is able to give you is to point out the fact that it's been stated by the devs that the goal of PvP balance isn't to make every one-on-one encounter fair for both participants. That's just completely unrealistic given the huge variation in ATs, powers, and individual builds. Rather, the goal of balance is to make it so two comparable teams are going to be balanced against each other. That's far more realistic, and that's why people have been telling you that the solution to your Hurricane woes is to find a team. That's just how the game is balanced, and that's how it's going to remain balanced.

That's not to say Hurricane won't get nerfed. If we're all honest with ourselves, I think we know it will sooner or later, simply because people complain about it so damned much. As we've seen in the past, eventually the vocal minority gets its way almost invariably. The shame of it all is that, when it happens, team leaders are going to have to think long and hard about whether or not they want to invite that storm defender to their PvP team and whether or not he has anything meaningful to contribute.

But then, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

It actually just occured to me why these two situations (stalkers and storm defenders) are so similar... in both cases, what you're talking about is the proverbial "one trick pony". It's a very common game design mechanic - you give a particular class one incredibly powerful ability, and build the entire class around that.

I never got into the whole D&D thing when I was younger, but oddly enough I've been playing quite a bit of it lately (I had to get older to fully embrace my inner nerd). The Rogue in D&D is the best example I've seen of one trick pony game design. In straight-up combat, a Rogue isn't even remotely a match for a Fighter, but if he's able to flank or sneak up on his targets, he can absolutely raise hell. However, there are situations where that doesn't work. Certain things are immune to sneak attacks, so the rogue is at a great disadvantage in those circumstances. However, when he's in his element, he's unmatched.

Similarly, Storm Defenders and Stalkers are incredibly powerful against their intended targets. A Storm Defender can completely render neuter a meleer if that meleer doesn't have anyone with him that's able to shut down the stormie. Likewise, a Stalker can wreck a team if they don't have anyone that's able to see him. However, put either of the two in a situation that's not ideal for them and they're all but worthless as they have little or nothing to fall back on.

Now, the question is whether or not the one trick pony design is a good one. Most of this whole RPG business is either homage or outright theft from D&D... it's the original. In D&D, there's no such thing as PvP. You don't have to worry about whether or not the monsters are having fun. CoX DOES have PvP, and you DO have to worry about whether or not both participating parties are having fun. Is it fun for a meleer whose being blasted at range by a Storm Defender that he's not able to retaliate against? Is it fun for someone whose busy fighting someone else to suddenly find themselves dead in one hit by a Stalker they never saw?

*shrug* That's the dilema, isn't it?

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Mind you, Quason, I'll grant that Hurricane in and of itself is a good power. My main argument is that the state of Defenders as a whole is such that a single good power... means jack in the overall scheme of 'balance'.

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*nod* And I can't even begin to count how many people have said this exact same thing regarding Hide and/or Assassin Strike with regard to Stalkers.

Again, not commenting on the validity of the statement... you may or may not be right, I dunno. I never PvPed with my Defender. I just know that the defensive arguments in this thread VERY strongly (almost eerily) mirror those being made by Stalker apologists.

Ya know, not commenting on the validity of any such argument or anything, but it occurs to me that anytime since the release of PvP that anything was commonly decided to be overpowered (phantasms immediately come to mind), those that play with the allegedly overpowered sets or individual powers come up with a laundry list of ways to overcome them. Still, inevitably, they get nerfed anyway.

See also: Stalkers, Hurricane using Storm Controllers/Defenders, PFF using */FF Masterminds.

Well, I think YOUR comparison is silly! SO THERE!

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Oh yeah.

They should also add a Temp Power that lets a Defender do 80% of Blaster damage in a PVP Zone and gives them native Mez Protection.

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These temporary powers all ready exist. They're called inspirations.

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*nod* In that case, every toon in the game has 95% accuracy against all targets, capped damage, unbreakable mez protection, infinite endurance and health, 90% damage resistance, and 95% defense against all targets.

NERF EVERYONE!

Hopefully to sum this entire thread up, whenever the question "Will there be nerfs?" is asked, the answer, invariably, is "Yes."

When the question is "When will those nerfs happen?", the answer, invariably, is "Soon."

I hope that helps.

This concept of "wuv" confuses and infuriates us!

(I can't believe that one wasn't taken yet. Must've been too obvious.)

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5) Queen -- Fat Bottom Girls

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You make the rockin' world go round!

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talk about bun-cakes....

(finish this line for pie)

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Big bottom, big bottom, my baby's gottem!

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5) Queen -- Fat Bottom Girls

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You make the rockin' world go round!

The Who - Baba O'Riley
Rolling Stones - Sympathy for the Devil
Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here
Barry McGuire - Eve of Destruction
Rolling Stones - Gimme Shelter
Steppenwolf - Magic Carpet Ride
Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
Pink Floyd - Comfortably Numb
Credence Clearwater Revival - Fortunate Son
ZZ Top - La Grange

Yeah, I had my classic rock playlist going.

Worked for me against Kage and SilentSpy. Oddly enough, it also made them both angry. =/

Not my intention to frustrate anyone, but if I just stand there like a statue and fight I invariably die very quickly. I don't think people have accepted the whole "Stalker != Scrapper" thing yet. *shrug*

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So, if you use Energy Transfer while you have the "Hide" status, ET will do no damage to you.

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That'd be great if it was actually working that way, but it isn't. Using ET after Placate still damages you most of the time. It doesn't if you use it while Hide is unsuppressed, but Placating doesn't seem to have a reliable affect.

That's perfect for me. I'll poke my head in Warburg around that time and see if you're around. There's a perfect spot on the roof of a building near the hero base to have 1v1s. We'll head up there for a match or two just for the hell of it, maybe see if we can get some other people involved too.

I prefer Siren's Call for 1v1s personally due to the fact that the level 38 powers can be a bit frustrating (picture a Brute using Overload and a Scrapper using Elude, just standing there whiffing at each other for two solid minutes) but in our case I think Warburg would work out fine. I don't have Overload yet, and your 38 power was my 32 power, so it works out perfectly.

That sounds like a lot of fun, Fly. Could I talk you into attending a Fight Club in Siren's Call one night (tonight would be great, around 10pm eastern) or are you specced for a higher level zone? Warburg would be fine too if you'd prefer.

Calling someone "one of the best" doesn't knock you off the list, btw. Not that I'm saying you're on that list, or that you aren't. The only time I ever saw you PvP was on a team of 8 of your SG mates, so it's hard to gauge what your own personal contribution was, but the team you were on at the time was phenomenal. I've just not had the pleasure of encountering you on your own.