QiSnake

Woohoo! Now I can get my name back! There is only space for one "Arch"/"Archy" in the hero world, and it looks like it'll be ME! (until you return)

Seriously though, take care 'till you get back!

Uh oh, looks like I may have been off in my harsh judgement of stalkers..

Recently in SC (defiant), numbers swang from mass-villains to mass-heroes suddenly, and trying hard to fool people into thinking im a gentleman, I switched over to my corruptor to help out. Ouch. Harsh awakening, much? Okay, so my corruptor is only level 22, and as per usual, the average hero level was 40+, im sure that cant have helped, but being more focused on the villain side, watching what a single good scrapper or blaster can do was bordering on the scary. This has pretty much thrown me back into the darkness in regards of PVP balance, and im sure its not just the fact that I was getting smothered every few seconds. I still say stalkers are overpowered and still a little too nullifying for my tastes, but having witnessed the ability of scrappers and blasters in a more direct way, its starting to seem necessary. Perhaps I just feel disillusioned or just purely disorientated, I dont know, I just thought i'd post this up here and give the stalkers a chance outside of my PFF to laugh at me. S'only fair

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Not only do you remove a character from the fight, you remove the fun along with it, and at the end of the day, that's the only reason we play this game.

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The same could be said of tactical droners like me, or stalkers one-shotting (soon to be one-shot-to-brawl).

You made me chuckle _Chi_, thanks
Although, I personally will always gripe about stalkers, but never in a nasty manner. Its a frustration venting thing, provided it doesnt turn into much of a spamming contest, i've always preferred it this way. Frustration vented well is personal hostility negated, methinks.

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You're expecting Villians to act with honor?

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No, but we're players, not heroes, not villains, but PLAYERS. If you want to roleplay a specific kind of character, a person can feel free too. The difference is, actual roleplay is consensual, the parties involved in roleplay know that they are interacting with a constructed personna for the sake of storylines, drama and entertainment. If someone tries to roleplay with someone who isnt roleplaying in return, then you are inflicting your character upon someone else. Having a villain character is not an excuse to act like a moron AS A PLAYER interacting with other players.

I havent been following this thread, too many pages to catch up and I dont expect anything of worth, or anything new to appear that we dont already know or havent already thought of. Hope I didnt miss some point that came prior to what I quoted, but honestly, I get sick of hearing it like it has some bearing on things :P

The trouble is, perfectly good players can still be closeminded and narrow-sighted. Someone who is normally pretty friendly can make a complete jerk out of themselves if they dont look at a situation honestly. From their point of view, something happened that frustrated them, and they immediatedly did the knee-jerk broadcast response thing. Thats fair enough. Then after a bunch of people get frustrated (by no real fault of yours), people just look at the number of frustrated broadcasts aimed at you and automatically assume you're either an a-hole, or a stat-hugging ganker.

Unfortunately, 'nice people' who get ratty and personal with people without actually trying to hear them out or put themselves into your shoes, deserve everything they get. Eat humble pie if you make a mistake to a respectable player, quietly revel in their annoyance if they're acting like jerks.

Fair play is great to have, but to be honest it seems like they were the ones being unfair. I dont mind it if there is a complete moron beating down on me, thats fairly easy to shrug off, but if there is someone acting like a complete jerk AND getting all holier-than-thou about it over broadcast at me, and actually believing what they say... THAT pushes my buttons.

Moral of the story? There isnt one. Some people are just blinkered and cant see beyond their own annoyance and need for justice (see also : petty revenge).

Oh, I understand now. When the responding message sounds off, its not actually saying how much you buffed/debuffed them by, its saying how much buff/debuff the side has [/i]in total[/i].
*facepalm*
Thanks for clearing that up.

Actually, I really like that idea. Rather than giving out debt when you get KO'ed in PVP (well, SC at least)... make the hero/villain KO count against their team. This might actually make it a lot easier to regain/keep control over the zone, and you wouldnt feel any guilt in using the NPC's to your advantage (its war!). Personally I think relying on hotspot battles to regain control is FAR too tedious, and there is the massive risk of debt when two player-characters end up in one.

At the very least, the debt for being KO'ed by an NPC, if not completely removed, should be reduced to that of an indoor mission. If they were worried about removing debt completely and having no punishment for reckless fighting in PVP, they could give people KO'ed by NPCs a temp debuff that lasts for a few minutes. Or even lower their level by 2 for a few minutes (preventing them from using another one of their powers in PVP until it wears off.)

Also, there was an interesting bug (the last time I checked), where if you started the game through City of Villains, then picked a hero, or if you opened the game through City of Heroes, and picked a villain... when you complete a buffing mission for your own team, it says you buffed the enemy. Uhm.. lemme explain that a bit better :

Opened game with : City of Villains updater
Played PVP mission with : Hero
Mission complete message : Captain Hero buffed the villains!

Opened game with : City of Heroes updater
Played PVP mission with : Villain
Mission complete message : Sgt Nasty buffed the Heroes!

It gets confusing, eh? It seems which updater you open sets who to call your allies. Because I dont have the foggiest clue on how to actually check, could this actually be buffing your enemy/debuffing your allies? Or is this just a hiccup in the naming?
(answer carefully, devs )

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And as to your thoughts QiSnake, regarding that Hide is imbalanced.

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Oh, its not just hide.. its the full hide/detect deal. As I keep saying, there is next to no gray area. Either the stalker gets flattened or runs like hell with red health, or the target gets flattened or (if lucky) runs like hell. In the end, when there is a stalker in a fight, SOMEONE will feel cheated... and that is the origin of the heated divide on the stalker subject.

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Nothing wrong with some good snipering.

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There is if you were observing a duel you had agreed not to interfere in, then afterwards you get cranky at someone else for supposedly breaking the rules, then saying you'll blacklist them.

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Duels in the PvP zones are nonsense, I can't stand people spamming broadcast with "1v1 N1nja4?", take it to the arena. The only 'rule' is to play the game.

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And with that only rule, duelling in PVP zones is fine, provided you expect other parties to jump in.

Likewise, no music for me. Audio-cues are handy sometimes, especially the ones from NPC's. x.x

Though if I have to play anything, its normally the combat music from the old PC game "Homeworld". Then some other unintrusive music like the Tenchu soundtrack.

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One defender clear mind seems to be enough to own stalkers .. Seriously, I didn't know the power was THAT good before I had experienced the ultimate purple glowing radar head..

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Actually, you're right there. Clear-mind really does work wonders for detection. But detection is only part of fighting stalkers, hitting and revealing is the next step, and whilst its not always such a hard task, you will occasionally get a stalker who seems to have slipped kevlar into his/her ninjasuit. It is pretty strange though, Archelon is level 37 and i've only just really started to detect stalkers with some kind of reliability (that was with the help of steamy mist and the occasional, passing AoE from other teammates). Granted, the steamy mist alone seemed to be doing a good job of revealing (most) stalkers on its own. That really confused me, because I remember when I was a few levels lower, I couldnt see any of them without that, and IRGoggles+tactics+yellows. Am I just imagining things are does level really play a strong part in detection here? Even in a zone where we are all exemped and SK'ed to the same relative level? If that is the case, it would seriously explain some of the crossed wires we have been seeing. Some come to PVP zones at a lower level, some come to PVP zones from way above at level 40+. Could someone confirm if original level factors into hide/detection rules?

Good post though, Qima.
If there was ever an AT i'd be annoyed at running away, its brutes. Funny how so many of us have called stalkers cowards, but we just dont seem to be giving the brutes who run at the last moment enough spikey resentful attention
Seriously though, I can understand where the stalker players are coming from, its just the way they have been designed that get some of us. Its not necessarily that they are severely unbalanced, its just that they are one of the bigger fun-ruiners that can stray into a fight since us controllers. Difference is, we dont have an anti-stalker insp yet.
(I stress the -yet- part )
They're a crazy AT, a real mixed-bag. Though you know exactly what to expect from a stalker, it sometimes plays out a little differently. The most noted (but not necessarily the most occuring) incident, is when certain players are constantly 1-shotted with no chance of response, no matter how they attempt to move or detect. Another one, is where the stalker circles constantly, waiting for a prime target, jumps in, then gets dog-piled. I just personally think the entire hide/detect thing is imbalanced, because there are so many factors you have to throw around, you can never really tell who is going to oblitorate who. And in the end, thats what it comes down to. Either the stalker feels completely robbed, cheated, and like a nerfy-crippled AT, or the target feels completely cobbed, cheated, and ganked by an overpowered unbalanced AT.

Its just the way they're designed, and whilst stalkers do have the potential to become sluggish scrappers, they will find it a nightmare to excel, and will still suffer low HP and being a prime target. I dont play my stalker often, but I really do stick by my opinion that they need to be tweaked. Villains only really have one true melee damage-dealer AT, brutes, and stalkers are the trick-card that either wins outright or gets slaughtered outright. I would have personally liked a "blitzer" AT in place of the stalker. Still with a stealth element, but not nearly as strong, no AS, but criticals with a decent portion of unresistable damage, more hitpoints. Meh, thats wishful thinking though.

It would however be nice to see some kind of secondary set for the stalkers, that has more tricks and traps in it. Seriously, stalkers need the defense, but they wouldnt NEED so much bloody unresistable AS damage and such strong hiding ability, if the devs gave them the chance to be cunning, and actually behave like assassins rather than kamikaze knifemen with predator-camouflage :P

It just means they'll likely try to tell others you go against 'the rules' and never to duel with you. I wouldnt worry too much, people who invent rules during a match without having discussed them before a fight starts have no place to gripe. Given you are a hider type, you need to be hidden to use your AT speciality. You cant hide if you're being constantly struck, and staying out of harms way whilst a power recharges/takes effect is far from wrong.

You'll find a lot of people who gripe too much, best thing to do is just let it pass. However if they ever try to openly insult you on broadcast, or build you a bad reputation in the same manner, just remind them that his friend jumped in. If you agreed to a 1-on-1, having the enemy get their friend to sniper you is pretty much what i'd call cheating :3

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I'm no hardcore gamer.. I just have no life..

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You too? Wow, small world

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My avie? ^^ I use it's cuteness to cover my annoying and naggin' posts :P

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I should get myself one of those..

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Come on over to Crey. Much better .

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Thats a thought, i've always liked those chicks with the little black eyemasks on. Unfortunately Crey dont let you work part time. I might charge for my services, but I dont charge for all of em. Kind of an unwritten law that us heroes work for free for the betterment of mankind and so forth.

When really, its my mission in life to find the enslaved poltergeist they used for the Crazy Frog ringtones and free it, then seal it permenantly out of our dimension.

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We were 3 stalkers trying to get a group of controllers the other day. We failed miserably even after trying many times. You win some, you lose some. If you keep losing, stop, think, find solution. Rince and repeat.

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In the case of finding a solution to stalkers, its often earning another respec, then adding in another three or four powers to help you to merely spot them, and even then normally needing stalker-detector teammates. xP

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You really hate stalkers? Go make yourself a anti-stalker toon and stop moaning.

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Unfortunately, some people dont churn out level 30's every other weekend. Some people level fast, some people level at the pace of.. y'know.. just a mere mortal. Getting into SC, only to find you cant do jack when faced with a stalker, would you honestly decide :
"I know! I'll just start a new toon from scratch JUST to fight stalkers! See you in a-hunred-and-bajillion months! "

Hardcore gamers can get away with that, but what about those of us who put in a measly 3 hours of CoX a day, and dont always play the same toons (to prevent the entire boredom factor kicking in). Man, I love all-encapsulating "aaah shaddap" posts. I aughta shmeck you upsiddada head with a rolled up newspaper Swissy. Only, your avatar pic is too cute.
*curls up*
Its.. licking the screen..

If anything, a lot of us heroes learn the hard way that if there is a single stalker in SC, and you try to fight in a hotspot... you're pretty much dancing on the debt-razor :P

Having said that, the few really good stalkers i've met have actually managed to 'pluck' me from situations I would have otherwise gotten debt from. Cheers to Stalk-obot for a AS-save from someone elses knockback->hold in a mob of Tsoo. (that was months ago though). Its just another prime example of why debt doesnt work in PVP zones so full of NPC debt-givers.

Reminding that when you get KO'ed, the debt is supposed to represent a debt to society/your benefactors for saving your hide free of charge, as well as giving you incentive to stay alive. Now, being a PVP zone, a place where we go to get our rear-ends handed to us just as often as we KO the enemy, that seems off. Also, given the fact we heroes are in fact preventing a massive villain incursion to the hero side of the game, but ooooh no, WE owe THEM a debt, for being crushed in an attempt to save their freedom.

I mean, jeez, they dont even give us heroes meal tickets for saving the world. Even then, it takes 10 of us a good few "save the world" arcs before we can even afford a decent TV for our SG. Let alone the fact that most heroes work for free, Archelon works for the hero corps, and he struggles.
*shakes head*
For shame.

The least the devs could do, is make it so we dont suffer full outdoor-grade debt when we are KO'ed in a PVP zone. Or maybe impliment something that figures out who -really- earned the kill, the villain who deuced me with energy-melee for five minutes, or the wandering fortunae who landed a psy-blast who finished me off with a DoT -1?

It'd just be nice if the bases, or at least the drones in the bases, would suppress teleporting or perhaps even ANY combat.. then they might actually be safezones, rather than just zones. As for base-camping, i've seen it in equal proportions from both sides. Fighting a team who is outside of your base is very comfortable, given the tiny downtime between respawning and getting back into the fight. The problem there is also that you really do have a limited ability to surprise your opponents, as they nearly always see you coming (even if you try to slip around the side). Not everyone enjoys being forced to fight right outside of their base, and few people enjoy being in an area dominated by NPCs who are hostile only to the attackers. Sometimes its the only choice. Occasionally the main body of your enemy will retreat to their base and pretty much stay there, sometimes half of you will be respawning when the enemy got impatient and decided to gather up outside your wall hoping for some stray, single teammates to pick off on their way back to the main fight.

In the end, if you're too close to the drones, and there isnt enough breathing space, you're going to get droned. Especially if you outnumber the base-occupying forces 3:1. I've personally taken to only droning people when we have little other option (and are bored of fighting 2 steps outside the base), or when people constantly TP us from within the supposed safezone.

In the end, it is PVP. If it doesnt get you debt, and doesnt ruin the fun, I really dont see what there is to complain about. If people are repeatedly teledroning you, and there is no real reason for it, then thats lame. Outside of that, its not really any more lame than AS, BU+aim+sniper, containment, or any other viable weapon.

Though, it does make me think. The range of TP Foe and Wormhole is pretty long. Even if you are trying to carefully keep your distance from the base, its still possible to be droned. Or if someone is really trying too hard, chain-TP-to-drone. If they wont suppress attacks/forced teleports across the safezone border, then couldnt they do some kind of range-nerf, so that only people who are REALLY looking for trouble get it?

Plus, the knock-up from the kick can be interrupted by the enemies powers. Thats right, most of the times when an enemy should flip through the air, land on his back, and pull himself up before fighting again... the bugger just flips, landing on his feet as his attack animation interrupts. You'd at least think it would root them? Oh no, even those who dont interrupt with an attack can still slide away, laid on the floor as if actually knocked down :P

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Thats the thing. If you wanted to be malicious you could.

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Hence one of the biggest turn-offs of making a SG raidable. SG raids have never interested me really, but I never really gave it serious thought with this one ominous little nugget of info floating overhead.

Etiquette in base raids will be like honor amongst thieves. You can use it if you want, but it will never guarantee that the opposition will be as respectful. It may not be too bad considering it does take a fair little effort to create and maintain a raidable base.. with SG's being marked on a kind of blacklist for being vindictive (and finding everything trashed when people decide to raid).. but with the way some SG's recruit and harvest, it makes you worry.

If you're in for the IoP's, good luck to you, but im standing well back!

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Or better still make BFs give protection from TP .

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Actually, I think this might be a good idea. I havent really been on the recieving end of excessive TP'ing, but i've seen it happen to others, and been pulled out of the hospital a handful of times (twice when I went there to go AFK). Though now I just keep my PFF on even inside the hospital, I have to wonder what its like for others. Also, as it stands, breakfrees dont release you from -fly or terrorise. Would it be good to allow breakfree to remove those bad states too?

*ponders*
Perhaps another insp, that completely removes all bad status from you (including things like forced phase-shift, and removing PBAoE debuffs placed on you), but with the side-effect of also removing all of your useful status too. Though im not sure it'd play out right if it also removed all your toggles and prematurely halted running click-powers... it just felt like a good idea when I conceived it. "Desperation" insp ftw? Maybe not.

Also, if someone is dronehugging, it could just be down to the fact that they dont fancy the odds and are waiting for you to get off their backs. If that isnt the case, and they are just going to sit there, then I think its worth just leaving them be. The only real trouble with this could be if they are the zones hero/villain bounty target.

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The problem for me is to break the stalker AT all you need to do is take one power from the leadership pool. So thats taking one less power in exchange for having the potential to see all stalkers.

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Potential is the key word here. Its a commonly noted fact that tactics alone is rarely enough to spot a stalker. At least, from my experience of CoX that is. Also, its not just taking one power from the leadership powerpool, its taking two. You need to have another power prior to it, right? Thats losing two powers, just to get a boost to perception that is noted to be not enough to see stalkers with hide+stealth.

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Too me that sounds like a destroying an AT. Look at it this way, would you be happy if I could lose an attack for a power that would make me resistant to holds or give me super strength defence?


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You mean like the mez resist toggles/clicks that people respec into, that often render my abilities as a controller useless? The ones that can be raised right after wearing out/being knocked off? The ones that even if I manage to stack through, a single breakfree renders you immune to me for long enough to raise them again? Yeah, controllers do have their cheap-and-cheesy side too, but we dont have it easy either. As for super-strength defense, people often take their strongest defensive toggles regardless. Pool powers on their own, arent very strong. They can be useful, but they arent particularly strong.

It still seems to be the hide/detect arms race that bugs people on both sides of the stalker divide. You can either see the opponent and they're rendered pretty much ineffective, or you cant see them, and you yourself are rendered pretty much ineffective. One side is often nullified in fights with stalkers, there is very little gray-area with them, and that is why both sides feel robbed all the time. This is of course, not figuring in PBAoE toggles which are a nightmare to work through... but as it has been said, every AT should have its weaknesses, there are builds that you are bound to have a terrible time fighting against.

I cant claim to know what to do, or how to do it, but its obvious that when it comes to stalkers, people on both sides of the fence feel robbed. Thats what i'd like to see change. A little larger 'gray area' so that people, even when in an uneven playing field, can still achieve a little by struggling on with the fight. We ALL have to expect to be laying face down in the dirt sometimes, but stalkers, and the way they have to be played (or were designed to be played), are the catalyst for a lot of frustration.

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People who TP foes into the drones are complete scum.

PvP is meant to be an enjoyable fight - not debt-harvesting for complete toss-bags.

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AFAIK, debt was removed from drones AGES ago.
I will personally TP someone into a drone if there is a large pack of villains at the hero entrance. If we need the space to breathe, or need to even the odds a little, i've never had qualms with doing that... especially when I get TP'ed out of the hospital. I wouldnt have any problems if they finally implemented something to prevent fire being exchanged over the safe-boundary, or even just teleports. Thats kind of an addition a lot of us have been waiting for..

I know what you mean about the AoE hugging though. Although a LOT of things are valid tactics in PVP, it doesnt mean they wont make people turn purple with raging frustration

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Oh one more thing. You cannot say anything on broadcast now without being labbeled a whinger. Whats that all about?!

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Normally thats someone who wants to annoy/taunt you, but has no material. The "stop whinging and go to the arena/leave PVP/come duel me" response has been around since the early days, only it crops up more now with the usual hum of stalker-annoyed banter, people cursing because someone interrupts a duel they never announced, or someone trying to do more than taunt over broadcast.

Although, as for the PBAoE-user hugging, I think thats fine. Some of us simply dont have enough stalker defense ability to survive for very long without help from someone else, and arent willing to invest in multiple powers just to be able to fight them. To some, its as necessary as stealth is to the people they're trying to protect themselves from :P