QiSnake

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And calling some friends does have nothing to do with being 'da man' . It has more to do with wanting bigger battles taking place, rather than having to wander for minutes to find a possible target. In this case i said id bring a couple of kins to avoid being tped away tho

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The original thing I said, was that someone was teleporting my teammate out of the base, so to deter him from repeatedly landing him in a squad that makes death practically instantaneous, I droned him. Your original post said that if I droned you, to deter you from repeated base-snatching, you'd call in your friends and cause me debt. Thats whats known as being vinctictive, or simply a bully.
"I can push you all I want, because if you push back, i'll get all my friends and we'll beat you up". Of course in this situation, beating a person up doesnt just mean a hospital trip, it means unavoidable debt, and likely several deaths-worth as your little gank squad chases the target down over a period of time. So its very much an "im da man dun mess wif me" approach.

The fact remains that deliberately getting someone debt is incomparable, because base-snatching and retaliation droning neither give debt, nor require you to call in the ganksquad. You also said in the quote about that its a whole new ballgame if someone drones to 'take advantage of a situation'. What exactly is base-snatching, if not simply taking advantage? Droning has always been used as a deterrant against people who tear you away from the base/hospital. Its a "Fine, i'll fight on your level" deal. This is why im frowning so much at why you directed your debt-squad post at me. Its like two boxers in a ring. Boxer A is punching Boxer B in the stomach repeatedly, so Boxer B punches him back a single time, Boxer A thinks this is unfair, so takes off his gloves and starts using a baseball bat. If the only way you can fight in PVP, is if nobody will retaliate against you on your own level, because you threaten them with debt, then you're a pretty poor PVP'er in my (strong) opinion.

That is precisely why I dont understand why people are so furious about droning, but not base-snatching. Normally to get someone to drone you, you need to be sat on top of their base in enough force for them to be unable to leave, and have one or two people teleporting people out into instant hospital trips. Yes, its true that you've got a cat-in-hells chance of getting away from a droning attempt alive, but base-snatching isnt much fairer. The difference is, if you get that close to the enemy base and set up camp, I really think you should expect it... just in the same way if you are stood right on the edge of your own base, doing nothing, you should expect to be teleported into the field. People who base-[censored] too excessively have no place to call droning in retaliation a "lame tactic", especially if they're going on a long broadcast flaming spree about it. They're practically the same thing.

Snatching turns into droning, droning turns into snatching.
The reason these things dont happen too much, is because they know what'll happen if they start using it. To me, that sounds like fair game. Many dont do either, as part of an unwritten code. At the same time, many DO do these things, but only rarely as a last resort dirty-trick. Thats all fine and groovy, it really shouldnt be a big frigging taboo. Sure, say "Aww come on, that was just low " on broadcast, but why treat it like someone just urinated on your dead fathers grave?

Then, there was the debt-threat that came on top of that. Yes, the devs said that using mobs during PVP is a valid tactic, and not considered griefing. Sounds logical, seeing as there are AT's that dont have much damage output, and teams arent always available. But to stick someone in a mob, mez them, and then refuse to even try to finish them yourself, is just too far IMO... and I dont recall the devs quite touching it in that context. I stand by what I said, if people start calling in their friends to form mob-squads every time someone fights fire with fire, PVP will die, and it will die fast.

First of all, droning causes NO debt.
Secondly, i've already covered the reasons for droning, and they werent merely to annoy. You were argueing that teleporting people into a mob and slowing them (to deliberately try to cause them debt) was on the same level as someone teleporting someone into a drone. You gain nothing by giving someone else debt, but droning is a very effective way of taking out high-threat targets when the enemy force is camping in heavy force outside your base. This has nothing to do with inflating ones own ego, because they managed to remove someone briefly from the field of play. Though threatening other people to bring in all your 'big hard mates' and cause people debt, if they dont hold still and let you rip them from the base and gank them, is the closest we have in this conversation to an "im da man" move. As it stands, you have yet to show why droning is worse than base-snatching, or validate how droning is on-level with telemobbing. Because so far, I see only this :

Base Snatching : No debt, highly likely to remove victim from play for a short period, often used in ganking.
Droning : No debt, exceptionally likely to remove victim from play temporarily, often used in defense of base against overwhelming numbers, best defense against base-snatchers.
Telemobbing Full outdoor debt per death, near-impossible to prevent if mez is involved, used to bully individuals out of the zone.

Base-snatching is on level with droning. One technique will likely cause the enemy to resort to the other. Droners can be abducted from the base and taken down briefly, and base-snatchers can be temporarily removed from the fight, to allow the cornered team to fight their way out. In my view, and in the views of many people I know, tele-mobbing is far lower than base-snatching and droning combined :P

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moreover people that don't want to die in PvP (i mean those who hide or tp in the drone/mob are very weird as diying in Pvp cost nothing and by the way they have the choice to not come at all.


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Hiding is part of some peoples inherant AT strength, and some AT's operate a lot better with a stealth power of some sort. Dieing in PVP does cost something, as you pointed out before you said it didnt, it slows your characters growth temporarily, and thats why people dont like to die by the hands of mobs, at least. Droning causes no debt, and is a good way to thin overwhelming numbers who are making it impossible to leave the base, or even stay inside the base (due to base-TP'ers). Just as much as they have the choice to not come, they also have the choice to come in the full knowledge they'll get annoyed.

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Well, that if u get some powers with resistances to tp... which are not many. Things will get better in i7, but some ATs will still be completely vulnerable


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As far as I know, every teleportation power thusfar has an accuracy check. Original levels before entering PVP can make a bit of a difference.

I think it was supposed to be sarcasm? xP
*looks at the comp clock ticking to 2:30am, and decides to get more chocolate+caffiene*

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Debt apart it's perfectly comparable, yes.

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Teleporting out of the base (considered safezone) :
Annoying, but valid tactic. The teleport victim loses nothing but patience.

Teleporting into a basedrone (considered safezone, which getting close to is a bad idea) :
Annoying but valid tactic, especially if there are forces camping outside the base that dont thin out, making engagement impossible. A very good tactic against people who teleport people out, and an exceptionally good tactic against people who teleport people out of the hospital (or the hospital leavers). Victim loses nothing but patience.

Teleporting into a mob of enemies and mezzing/slowing, and leaving the mob to finish them deliberately (merely valid tactic, you gain nothing unless you're solo) :
Solo squishies who are incapable of outputting much damage gain the ability to remove threats, threats that they are likely to have less hassle with than after when they mobbed them. Good for pursuers but not much else. Victim gains a full helping of outdoor debt, and that is in a single mobbing incident. Lower level characters suffer less but are far more prone to being TP'ed, higher level characters seem more likely to resist/evade the effects, but have higher debt per mob-death. Not everyone goes into the game to grind for 3+ hours a day, and given that levelling can be pretty slow, deliberately getting another player into debt for no reason other than 'revenge against revenge where we were being a-holes' is just a jerk tactic. Seriously. Hospital teleporting, and if anyone does anything about it you'll run and cry to all your mates and come and throw bricks through our windows? Because thats what it comes down to really.
"Oh noes, a minor setback in response to our ganking! Call all friends and get them debt!"

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About avenging an avange, i think its perfectly done, too. U teledrone someone as a 'mess with me/my mates and u'll get this' message. It's just fair if the other replies.


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No its not a "mess with my mates and i'll mess with you", its a "if you gank us, we wont take it sitting down". If you want to be the first step in debt-wars and/or killing PVP, be my guest, its not like people are going to be able to stop you. After all, thats what this part of the convo is orbitting around, you want to be able to fight without actually having any resistance, right?

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And as i said, it's all just good fun .


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Deliberate debt isnt everyones idea of fun, pal. You still havent said what the screaming fuss is about teledroning, that makes you want to get debt involved.

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Point made and I agree with ya there. Maybe I did put it in simple terms but I am supposed to be working

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Hwch-tssh, shovel those coals, mule!

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Beats talking about I7 & Kittens though

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I dont bother, I7 is just a plot by the puppies to strategically reduce the kitten force.
*wearing tinfoil cap*

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It doesn't say that anywhere but we don't live in a perfect world either. I'd wish it could be all in good spirits but we're all human being and we're all different.


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If we were to attribute everything to simply not living in a perfect world, and the fact that in a very base level, human beings are just plain mean, and then leave it at that, nothing would ever change. Whilst what you say is true, we could resolve and end an aweful lot of discussions and lines of thought with "This isnt a perfect world, and people are mean". The point I was raising is that people have this false belief that jerkish behaviour is completely overlooked in the PVP zones, to the point of the normal rules having no effect. That little pop-up that reminds you about being in a PVP zone could also remind them that the rules still apply? Blegh, thats too much like overkill. Perhaps they should add a few more lines to the PVP zone entrance dudes, to tell them if they're naughty, santa wont give them any presents Then again the villains wouldnt mind, they stole a bunch of them last christmas..

And yes, im perfectly aware that nothing will come of this topic, even if we come up with some killer suggestions. Imperfect world etc etc.

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Has it occured to anyone that perhaps the people that do leave because of smacktalk etc, should leave PvP? It's obviously not for everyone and maybe for those people it's best to stay out.


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Thats just the thing, where was it written that the darker half of the smacktalk HAS to be in PVP? Rules are enforced throughout the entire game, so where on earth did people get the impression that they going that far is A-okay in PVP? I bet if you'd ask a bunch of PVP'ers, about what they thought the rules were, you'd get a whole lot of different answers. Despite the strange assumation that its against the rules to interrupt duels by some, or that tele-droning or base-teleporting is a bannable offense, a load of them say that swearing and being completely obnoxious is well within the rules.

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If u teledroned me because i was teleporting ur mate out of base i would call a couple of kin friends to safely tp u and ur friend to the nastiest mobs around Its just pvp, and sooo fun

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So, essentially you'd be getting revenge on someone for getting revenge on you? Base teleporting and teledroning is a debtless practice, but you'd seriously gank someone with a sodding mob, and slow them? Valid tactic or not, I think thats pretty low. Dont even bother to try putting teledroning on par with telemobbing (with a ganksquad to keep them there), because there is one not-so-subtle difference, and that is a dose of outdoor-grade debt. Harmless but annoying practice begets harmless but annoying practice (baseTP -> droneTP), but debt-giving ganksquads only beget debt-giving ganksquads. Is it worth it, considering villains max at 40 right now, and with this example, im a Grav/FF controller (wormhole, plus TPresistant forcefields). Even if you succeeded in doing it, all you would have achieved is sending the message : "Dont fight back on equal terms, or we'll summon the debt mafia." If people start seriously doing this, PVP will die.

Explain to me, why is it that people go into a frothing, vitriolic tantrum when they get droned, even if they've been sat outside the enemy base repeatedly teleporting people who leave the hospital? Its easy to overlook your own little evils and pretend that the enemy is the only one using annoying tactics, but to bring debt into the equasion is a seriously bad move in my opinion.

Methinks I hear Yakkity Sax!

Thing is though, misunderstandings happen, and even decent people can get ratty as hell. Some guy was teleporting my only teammate out of our base two nights ago, so in return, I tele-droned him, then said why I did it. It was supposed to essentially be an in-character gesture. A show of force if you will, "if you do that, i'll do this", to try keep things a little calmer (because my teammate was getting a bit fired up about it.) Naturally, the reaction to my teledroning was frustration, anger, an arguement in tells, then me putting him on ignore as it went too far. Later on, another villain asked me to remove him from my ignore list, he was -going- to apologise but I cut him off and basically said : "[dung] happens."

Its hard to put into words, but in most cases its easier than you think to tell apart those who just lost their temper, and those who are out to make your PVP experience an annoying misery.

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We have a will yes and thats a great thing. I am firm believer of a human will too and as such it is really sad to see how few of us actually use it.


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Bleh, agreed.

I guess thats why I always ended up being sucked into every damned arguement I come across. I have this tendancy to see the loud guy, and try to get them to pipe down. So, maybe all the PVP arguements upon me were my fault? Yeah, maybe. Im quite a bit different in real-life, situations depending, but at least in-game, this is my chill out time, and if something is annoying me, im going to try change it. Its a futile exercise that seems to always lead in the opposite direction I want it to, but meh, what can a guy do?

Y'see, this is the main problem with people giving intelligent responses, the conclusions never feel good enough. Where are my exploding watermelons, confetti hoses and the ninja cabaret? Life can be such a [dog]
*sulk*

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The first rule of PvP is, you do not talk about PvP...

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Or to be more accurate :
The first rule of grief-club, is you do not talk about grief-club...

It is true that on some level, cruelty is within us. Selfishness is more apparent though. But on that same level, so is murder and [forced copulation]. There is something that is both a curse and a blessing to our species, and that is our ability to deny our basic impulses. This is the one thing why we consider ourselves more than just mere 'animals'. People have argued whether this is our greatest downfall or out greatest upliftance, and it could very well be both. Essentially you're saying that we're not above our own nature, and I have to agree with you there, but you must also understand that our very nature is changing/has changed. Just as most people now no longer feel the need to kill when they feel insecure (or is this only because of imposed laws? A big fish little fish deal, like insurance of sanity?)

I can appreciate and see the wisdom in coming to terms with the 'inner animal' (see also : the monkey within ), but the way that different people 'fracture' their connections to their selfish inner animal as they grow to (physical) maturity, varies a fair bit on a person-to-person scale. Probably has a lot to do with culture, too. Actually come to think of it, if I wasnt clobbered upside the skull with a heaving sackload of emotional problems earlier on, I would have turned out to be a completely selfish moron, im certain of it. I think the negative traits should be embraced, but just because we embrace the fact we are still just animals (just sentient ones), doesnt really excuse certain kinds of behaviour. People seldom have a sense of self-containment as it is, and then they go online to the place that im trying to chill out, and the annonymity gives them even less. Brilliant. Just what we needed in an already frustrating rock-paper-scissors section..

Whilst im just sounding really pompous and pacing around in circles with this, I have a point to make, im sure of it. Heh. The thing is, whilst you can validate behaviour and attribute it to the real human nature, there are very few cases human will cannot change that. Im a firm believer of human will, y'see. Nothing is forcing you to live like an ape trapped in a humans body, but thats personal choice, right? Right. So whilst this all explains why you'll get some kid in a PVP zone finding himself overstimulated and prone to bouts of beating his chest, bragging about the size of his meat, then laughing like we're the crazy ones... this still doesnt quite explain why when the worst of it happens (or used to happen), people would sooner support the dude who was causing a racket and hounding people, than just simply tell him to shut the hell up.

So whats the deal? Is this just a case of PVP'ers quietly enjoying the moron like its a one-monkey zoo, or is there some kind of project mayhem (Fight Club) going on here, that you dont talk about?
I doubt it has to do with personal philosophy.

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I think I saw a film about this once...

Then the big stupid guy comes to your house, and slices you up like cheese... either that or you have to defeat Darth Vader and the Death Star... who knows, films are so confusing nowadays, I can never remember what I'm watching.

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Provided it has boobies and 'splosions, all is good, right?

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I've still not seen anything like this stuff you guys have been describing - maybe I'm just in the zones at the wrong time?
I have broadcast and local on at all times, so as not to miss anything, and even when I'm in a team, I only use the team chat for tactics so the Villians don't know what we're up to, and the worst I've seen so far are the usual "lol! U suck0rz!!!11!!", "U r lam0rz!1111!!", "U r teh gayorz!!11" - just kids stuff.

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Its also possible that I left this well-overdue venting thread too long, and now its just not really a problem any more. I mean, you'll still get it occasionally, but I have to admit, recently it hasnt been too bad at all. Meh, that one guy must have just given me a false alarm, and my timing is already atrocious.

Hell, even had a few arguements in SC tonight and the other guys decided to actually PM me instead of ramble on in broadcast about it with me. I was shocked and near-traumatised at the idea of doing something intelligent. Just the thought of eventually having to follow their example gives me shivers.

Think of it as if there wasnt a computer involved. The other party was sat right next to you. Still bearing in mind its all competetive, if someone says to you "Oh lawd, god'll kick yo [censored] sumting rotten", thats well in the ways of fun banter. "Im not doing so well because I put my back out humping your momma " is something that you could get away with saying to a friend, or perhaps someone who you've struck a decent vibe with. "You're such a [censored] [censored], suck my [censored] when your daddy [censored] [censored], [censored]! GANK -playername-!", followed by all that guys buddies saying similar stuff, and droning on with more of that stuff whenever you talk.

Im not very good at examples, but its easy to tell the difference between banter, smacktalk, and griefing. Its normally obvious when someone is trying too hard to offend / ruin the game for someone / make someone leave. The difference might seem subtle to some, but I seriously dont think it takes a brainsurgeon to tell the difference. Just think of whether you could get away with saying it to someones face without having your face flattened, and thats a good starting point.

Or like when someone deliberately tries to offend someone, and when they succeed and get any kind of response they just play the "OMG I just playing get ova urself lol whinger!!1" card, or "ur takin urself 2 seerius lol. get life. everee1 see dat?". When rules are in place, its a fact that people will try waaay too hard to worm their way around them and insult you, without actually being under threat of being held responsible for messing with the good PVP vibe. I mentioned that "Im just messing around, whinger!" thing before in another thread, and someone confessed that it was one of their favored tactics. The main thing like I said before, that does my head in, is when someone else gets involved in those bickering events, the newcomer will nearly always choose to side with the moron who started it and is perpetuating it, and tell the player on the recieving end of it all to shut up. It makes about as much sense as the burglar who managed to sue the dude who he was robbing.

Seriously, its like being trapped in a sodding Mr.Magoo cartoon.

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Oh and I believe I joined your team while that smack talk was occuring archelon, to be honest i would just ignore it completely and get on with opening a can of wtpfwnage on these tools

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Actually thats the part that makes me the most bitter. My cunning plan had failed. When he took it beyond playful banter/smacktalk, I do my usual of talking them down, to either get them to chill or maybe leave the zone. After a bit of (polite) verbal pummelage, he left the zone. You know whats wrong with this picture? I was too busy bloody returning fire to actually get back in there and take him out :/ Thats a hobby of mine, duelling brutes with my controller, s'kinda fun. Still if you remember correctly, the real reason I left the zone early that night, was because we had a ludacrous number of heroes and a farts-worth of villains who refused to leave (suicidal buggers that they were)

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I personally like 'smacktalk' thats 'in-character' but its kinda rare i think..


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Thats why I wont disable my villain chat when I go into PVP. I dont think it'd be quite as good if there wasnt that constant hum of banter, y'know?

I'll be in SC later on tonight anyways, well behind on my KO quota.

Character name: Archelon
Global Handle: @Archelon
Archetype: Controller
Powersets: Gravity Control / Forcefields

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Sorry if I sound motherly...but you're allowed to be upset and rant on here.


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No problem, I think I ran out of steam after the first post really. Im like that, i'll think of a forum post to throw into here, then never get around to it until ages later... this is really a gripe about a load of stuff I saw/was on the recieving end of a while back, so whilst its too long ago to have a serious [ladydog] about, I still felt like typing it up. Kind of a better late than never thing. No proof that this still occasionally happens in the PVP zones, but I dont doubt it.

Thing is, you can normally tell when someone has had enough. Even 'teabagging', corpsehumping and other lolnub-isms arent meant with malice, they're there to annoy and frustrate, right? But people have limits. Pushing that kind of stuff way too far is akin to tele-mezzing someone into a mob. There are lines. Whilst things can be valid tactics and within the rules, some stuff just ruins it, y'know?

I guess its time to break away from the 'never ignore' idea and start juggling names as my list maxes out again.

*steeples his fingers together*
Eeeexcellent.

I guess that just cleaned it up for me a bit then. The reason the worst of it is around, seems to be because so many people (some regulars included) either ignore it completely, encourage it, or take part in it. Feels kinda lonely, being the only one who seems to shiv a git about that stuff. xP

Disillusion GET!

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Why should it bother me?


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Innocent questions shouldnt.

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Leaving PvP because of social things? People like that are pathetic for actually letting other people get to them.

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Congrats on insulting those who left PVP for periods of time out of frustration with similar people. I'd shake your hand but then i'd be too tempted to strangle you whilst screaming "NERF HOBO!"

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1. They win for getting you to leave.
2. You are letting people over the internet effect your enjoyment, this is sad and you shouldn't let it happen.

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1. As opposed to staying -just- to prove that they cant make you leave? I do that because im a stubborn moron, and trust me, it gets boring fast, and rarely amounts to more than a pointless demonstration, given that I often leave the zone after they do, to chill and get rid of the bad mood. Some people enjoy believing that they have control over others, because they know what to do to produce certain results. People like me stick around just to essentially give them the middle finger, but im sure because I actually leave afterwards you'd still see that as pathetic, right?

2. "Letting" it happen? Moods, or more specifically emotions arent wired up to light switches you can flick on and off, y'know. You can channel and direct them more creatively, but nobody has absolute control over them, and many have exceptionally little. Its always easier to have a harsh opinion upon those who arent as resilient as yourself. Just because something doesnt bother you, doesnt mean if it bothers someone else it means they're weak/pathetic/etc. Such judgements are easy to make, because you're already at "safe distance" to the group you just blasted. Is that actually your opinion or just an unconcerned, passing comment?

So I guess im trying to say :
Like, whatever man, thats just your... like... opinion

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I was in Siren's Call at the same time, and I didn't see anything...


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I took a little bit tapping up the post as normal, and 10 minutes at the start was a bit later when I finished. It wasnt so much a repeat of what I described, but a show of similar attitudes that reminded me of said things.

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The amount of abuse I got from people on my stalker was a joke and I lost the joy of pvp for a while but you really cannot underestimate the usefulness of the /ignore command.


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If I recall correctly, you got an earful of harsh words from me too, way back when. That was due to the kind of thing I described in the main post, and as I finally snapped and decided to throw something back at that guy and his little 'crew', you said something in my direction that got taken completely the wrong way, so I ended up assuming you were one of the griefmongerers..
So yeah, cheers for being patient back then

Whilst I personally have no quarrels with droning, if the enemy opposition is camped in mass force outside your base (and you're heavily outnumbered)... I would never throw people into mobs knowingly, and have often broken combat to help my held victim avoid debt, or at least alternate my holds upon the NPC's to keep them locked down too. I personally dont like using constant knockback to keep someone pinned against a wall. Whilst its a valid tactic, I dont like it personally, and similarly i'll leave a team if thats what they're using, or if its someone in my team, i'll ask them not to be too excessive with it. Fine, its a tactical advantage, but to hold them like that for an age and not finish them off is just downright annoying. I've been known to wormhole an enemy out of such a situation, and over to a clear spot a little way from us so they have a chance to escape or re-engage. Wormhole is useful for that, being able to place the exit of the TP away from yourself. I've saved someone from debt that way, but I also kinda suck up an NPC in the process.. was pretty close XD

Shuffled into a new thread. This is an off-shot of Six's "Extremely Bad Behaviour" thread, on a different note.
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One problem that i've noticed recurring (and just happened about 10 minutes ago yet again), is that when an individual decides to try act like top dog and starts smirking at everyone, swearing where he feels like it, and has a group of friends who although arent actually breaking any rules, are all lined up ready to mock you if you even respond to what the offender says... its... well i've seen lots of people involved and in these kinds of broadcast insults, SUPPORTING the person trying to pick a fight. Not in an obvious and direct manner, but like they can smell the potential griefing target and jumping up on the bandwagon, perhaps to keep themselves out of the line of fire?

When someone randomly picks a target over broadcast and starts to harass them well out of line of just playful banter, you'll find that a lot of the 'cool kid' wannabes instantly try to jump on the bandwagon, doing the "offensive is cool, you just dont get it" deal, and add little sarcastic, holier-than-thou remarks (in volleys) whenever you say or do anything. Especially if you try to talk to them, or ask them to chill/tell them you'll petition if they dont give it a rest.

Im sure I can anticipate the obvious response to this :
"Just put them on ignore"
How long is the ignore list exactly? If I put everyone like this on ignore that I had met in my CoX time, the list would have already been filled up. Also there is a trend amongst those who you -do- ignore, to broadcast lies about you because you cant see them doing it, telling people not to trust you (if you're a dueller) because you cheat, or make up stories about you griefing them or harassing -them- over tells. Whilst this little event 10 minutes ago never got to that level, and the only 'supporting cast' of the main moron was actually only trying to be playful (he was just trying to lighten the mood, but failing, I believe), i've still seen this kind of behaviour all too often. Thats the kind of stuff that really makes PVP a place you regret going to sometimes.

This might be a bit far-fetched sounding, but bear with me. Ever since people started employing rules to force obnoxious, profane, offensive people to take responsibility for their actions/words, people decided to learn and evolve new ways of being offensive without actually breaking any hard-written rules. Constant indirect, sarcastic comments, on every line that doesnt even relate to them. Deliberately looking for ways to misinterpret everything you say, just so they can further an act of playing the victim (or the 'righteous backlash' card). This is all further made worse by some who -really- like to annoy people and drive them out of the zone, who bring friends, who remain otherwise polite to others and quiet, until the 'main man' starts the griefing, after which, they all jump in, and claim to be innocently reacting to a "whinger". With enough provocation, they can get their target enraged, and people who didnt hear the startings of the griefage will just assume the victim is actually the aggressor.

That is the final cherry on top of this big dung-sundae.
The people who get sucked into it obliviously and actually -help- the griefers by focusing on their target, who they provoked. That is by far the worst part. Especially if you're just getting into PVP or if you're one of the 'unknown regulars' of the game/zone, because once people start to believe you're a jack[mule], they often cling to that first impression for a while.

...but the only person who can be held accountable, is the one who started it, and that is -only- if they accidentally allowed themselves to actually curse. All others (and themselves, if they kept in control enough) are technically completely safe, because they didnt actually break any of the hard rules... and given how messy those kinds of insidious little griefing sessions can be, im sure it leaves any GM looking into the issue in a hard place to respond.

Where am I going with this? Hell knows. I guess im just venting because I have seen this happen to others a few times, and have been on the recieving end of it too. It just feels absurd that things like this are allowed to happen, and I cant think of anything that would help prevent them from going on too.

The reason why PVP zones are often so full of idiots, is because half of the time, people who arent on the recieving end seem to be egging them on, encouraging them, and at worst supporting them directly. People say PVP will always be like this, but I have to ask why that is? Is it because of a lack of constant moderation that is too costly to implement? Is it because PVP attracts those kinds or brings out the worst in otherwise normal people? Or is because those kinds of people seem to regularly visit PVP and support those kinds of underhanded tactics, effectively giving a show of hands to others that "Dont worry folks, its a PVP zone, you can act like a jerk if you want to!".

Blargh. So, no point I guess. One-shot thread. Watch it gurgle as the forums slowly flush it away in the wash of new threads. xD