QiSnake

Is it normal to get the badge for 400 pvp points in Bloody Bay, just by completing a mission? One of my alts got it, and figured they must have forgot to change the text or something. Badge was "Disruptor" I think, describes having got 400 pvp points in Bloody Bay. Unless my memory is going dodgey.

I've said it before and i'll say it again. Us controllers, when we're good we're great, when we're bad we're terrible.

Skipping the rest of the replies.. the answer to the question "Why do Heroes flee Sirens Call?" is "The same reasons Villains flee Sirens Call!" :3

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The whole concept of bases are lacking ALOT and I DO hope that we will be seeing alot of patches doing things to bases and their function!


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Agreed.

Hmm, torches? What-where? x.x
I have plenty of torch stands and wall-mounted torches, in the fitting rooms of course, but I must have missed how that is relevant to the doorways. Im a tad slow y'see. lol

Even if we could only place wall details in the 'doorway' spaces, that'd be better than nothing. What about elevators, or multi-level rooms? Some of the rooms are huge, you could easily add a second floor to them, but we dont even have large sets of stairs to combine them. We have wooden bridges in the arcane set, but to join up what? They have to be attached along walls and cant be suspended between two items..

*flails*

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I began to feel a little bad about killing you during your long hold animations so often, that is up until the point where you held me.


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Thats normally the way with PVP
I find myself apologising to villains I havent fought before, for the cheap-feeling fights when I procedurally lock them down and bombard them with force bolts to drop their toggles..

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Not sure how you are slotted on your holds but grav seems to get me more than other holds, it only took about 3 stacked to hold me while earlier in the day I had literally 3 rows of holds/immobs/slows on me and was still moving


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It is quite strange really, I normally find my gravity powers very ineffective against most people, but my grav distortion has two accuracy SO's, being my weapon of choice vs everything. I only managed to KO you twice that night, I think, and every other time I only managed to slow you down or ground you.

There is seldom a middle-ground with controllers, their powers either completely dominate and lock the individual down helplessly, or they have no real effect. Then again, there is nothing worse than having a long, drawn-out 1vs1 battle against a brute, constantly locking him down, or having to walk backwards constantly throughout the fight as he slowly approaches and uppercuts you around.... then when you -finally- get the brute into red, he turns on SS/SJ and runs back to base.
*shakes fist*
Its just a personal rule of mine, but if someone has put on a good show of the fight, and neither side was completely overpowered, you might as well give them the KO that they really earned.

Hats off to Nertherblast for sharing that opinion too, he fights hard :3

The only really noted etiquette of the PVP zones right now, is to never deliberately cause someone else debt. Though given a lot of people dont really seem to care how they play, there is a little bit of a divide.

There are the annoying ganker-style players, and the more sportsmanlike players. I can only tell you how I personally play, but provided you're at least a good sport about attacking/being KO'ed, nobody should really have a problem with you.

First off, I think its an 'unfair' tactic to watch over the enemy safe-zone, waiting to teleport the nearest easy meal outside and destroy them. Safe zones are there for a reason, I know every dirty trick in the book applies here, but teleporting them out of the safe zone should only be used if they keep cowering inside of there without reason. Sometimes the reason for people going back to the safe zone, is simply because you outnumber them 4-1. Back off from their safe zone for a few moments and see what happens. Give them some breathing space, otherwise no -real- PVP will happen.

Generally, i've heard people say "its frowned upon" to teleport enemies into your safe zones drones. Now that there isnt any debt for that, people dont really have a reason to gripe, its all part of the game, ESPECIALLY if you're making it nigh-on impossible to get out of the base. If you're close enough to their safe zone to be pulled in, you need to rethink your tactics. Similarly, if you ever get teleported by an enemy in an annoying manner, you'd do well to remember that every cunning/dirty trick does actually apply here. Even if you get debt as a result, if it was unintentional, its not worth kicking up a fuss over. Broadcast chat might be a good way to tease your opponents to get them riled up, so they make mistakes, but you have to remember that the games rules still apply. If you spend time insulting a player directly, eventually you're going to cross the line, then get petitioned.

I hate to sound blunt here, but if you get KO'ed, suck it up. You're there to die as much as you're there to kill. Yes, the stalkers do fight in a rather cheap manner, but you have to remember its all they have. Yes, sometimes you will encounter opponents that you dont really stand a chance of defeating, but that often boils down to your characters build. If you're like me, and find making pure PVP builds to be boring, you'll find that happens a lot
*shrugs*

The only real times there should be need to kick up a fuss, is if people are seriously ruining it for others, like by watching over the opposing teams hospital and teleporting ressurectees straight back to death again, or if people are deliberately attempting to cause others debt, like by teleporting you into crowds of NPC's and chainholding you.

I guess the only real rule of thumb is to use your head. The PVP zone exists so you can use everything you have to win, but a little consideration does prevent all kinds of grief and earache. Play rough, be brutal, but dont be an [censored]
Tough as the zone can be, people generally go there to have a laugh, the same as you.

Oh, and if someone broadcasts that they'll be doing a 1vs1 battle with someone, personal duel style, even though you're entitled to jump in and take the kill, its just bad manners.

Above all, I think the "But i r a villun, i evul it wot i do" excuse is the most tired, lame excuse for being a git on the battlefield. If you're going to be a poor sportsman, at least have the consideration to NOT broadcast excuses to us. We understand the PVP zone is nasty, and not everyone obides by the same personal PVP ethics, but sometimes, you really do earn the earache you get over the broadcast channel.

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up in the sky, in safety from Stalkers and their backstabbing


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And who said Stalkers cant fly too? Some of the most irritating (see also : effective/wise) stalkers i've faced had taken fly, just to be able to eliminate us chainholders

You know these lovely 1-square doorways we get between rooms? Do you have to unlock something before you can actually place a doorway there, or are we just stuck with chunky holes gouged out of the walls? Im not very hopeful, as you can see, but it just feels very unfinished, so I thought i'd ask. We cant place items in the doorway at all (even wall details), there can be no trim in doorways and we cant turn the trim off in rooms, often making it just feel ugly. What about when two rooms have different styles? The doorway is half one style, half the other, and nothing but a dividing hairline for design options. Why is there a "doorway" tab under the "pick a style" mode, but there is nothing there?

And if there is an unlockable door, how many billions of prestige will it take to unlock? How much to place? How many more power generators will I need to operate the "Wooden outhouse" door, if I ever get it? :P

Or just butter them up a bit. Im convinced the "Hey, I know where Archelon is" line works pretty damn well

OH! That reminds me, I remember after GIMPMANs little personal broadcast griefing session, I was in a bit of a foul mood. I can accept certain levels of taunt are to raise a mistake out of opponents, but he really went too far.

The resulting bad mood, and the fact I spent an age defending against his claims on the broadcast, I ennded up snapping at someone who didnt deserve it. I forget who it was, but I mistook them for one of the people who were going through the entire broadcast insult deal with GIMP. I seriously forgot your villain name, but im sorry I bit your head off, at that point all I could see was a red haze of player-aggro tactics.

No worries Fliknife, you people always worry me when I see you wandering around. A good challenge always brightens my mood, but I feel -really- cheap, being a controller. Y'know, stack holds to keep them under control, then propel them to death. xD

As for the no trashtalking business, I guess you werent there when the villain "GIMPMAN" was. He rather enjoyed his broadcast griefing session, and making it out as if I were ganking people. Thankfully, when you and the others showed up, you actually put me in a really good mood. Its great to fight against people who dont make it personal

Black Aria! I'll get you yet! I just need to buy 25 more sets of IR goggles then i'll be able to see you. But I will eventually get you! At least Greek had a good laugh watching you clean the road with our faces...

Actually its Lady Fuya, if I remember correctly.
She's starting to get a wee bit notorious now isnt she?

Smooth Operator, you're a cruel cruel man
Then again, if it works, work it!

Being a holier-than-thou controller, there is nothing more fun than holding some new Leeroy Jenkins impersonator in a chainhold, then taking my time to reply to him in the local chat, giving out a few lengthy lines about how they should have reconsidered attacking an uninterested squishy, and so forth, blah blah blah...
...but then not actually giving them the KO. Just hold them a few more times, bow politely, laugh, then leave

As much as I love PVP, I find it hard as a controller. If I can hold someone effortlessly, it feels like im cheating or bullying a lower-leveller, so I just leave them relatively unharmed. If I cant hold them? I faceplant and swear bloody revenge, but never get it.

Time to be more ruthless methinks.

Unfortunately, PVP is a competetive game-mode, and in nearly every competetive game to do with computers, people VERY often feel completely robbed and cheated. Its hard to tell whether someone just beat you by skill and cunning, or by simply finding out the latest power-formula for the stats that essentially ruined all real skill involved.

I have to say, so far PVP in Sirens Call has been frustrating to me. Why? Two lovely dollops of outdoor grade debt. I definately felt robbed, but I can easily see that my first serving was because an attacker couldnt quite finish me off and an NPC enemy got there first, and the second time I was reckless and pretty much deserved it entirely.

This doesnt however ease the annoyance it causes, when you're trying to have a good time, then a debt bar springs up. Or when you go out to have a 'good fight', even if you lose every one of them, you expect to be able to at least make a show of it... but sometimes thats not the case, sometimes people so much as look at you, and you're KO'ed.

This is the nature of PVP, because its impossible to balance it out to the point of giving everyone that 'good fight' they want. Yes, its tough to see your healthbar vanish in what appears to be a single strike, or some little manuever that a studious PVP'er invented.... when it comes down to to the stats, you simply dont have time to work out if what they did was 'lame' and 'cheesy', or whether it was in fact cunning and a well-deserved quick victory.

It would however pay for everyone to notice, that every little dirty trick in the book will be in play, so expect to get KO'ed a lot until you get your PVP sixth-sense going. I do however personally believe that if someone intentionally tries to get people into debt, that is a reportable offense. Why? Because if someone can aggro a high-level mob, and run passed a low-level character, so that they'll faceplant when the mob finds them as they wander back to their anchorpoint... and thats is a reportable offense, then deliberately TP'ing a red-health character into a pack of high-level NPC enemies should be reportable as well. Its one thing to use everything you have to win the victory you deserve, but its another to deliberately cause a persons character to be set back.

As for the trash-talk? I dont mind a bit of verbal swordsplay, provided its aimed at my character, and not me Woe betide the villain who makes fun of my controllers ponytail.

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For me, the important thing is that neither the sneak nor the searcher should ever feel safe.


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Definately. As with all games, if a person can have it so that their stats make them practically invincible in -any- kind of way, then the fun of the game drops sharply. I know that was simplified, but if a stalker cant stalk unless they get spammed with invisibility, or if non-stalkers cant detect them without all kinds of assistance, the game gets thrown all kinds of out-of-whack. Normally if the game is off-balance, a tweak can make it better, but here its more of a see-saw thing.
Neither the stalker or the stalked should -need- to be spammed with assistance to function readily, it shouldnt be down to which side of the fence has the most assisting powers, it should be down to how they play.

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My other sugestion would be to give PC's a cone of vision. So that their perception is much higher to the front. It could make sneaking and searching more fun, would benefit active clever players and makes ''intuative sense''.


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Definately agreed.

WHAAATT??
What happened to my big reply here??

I posted a reply last night, a pretty big one, and now its gone? Aww man, I either ticked off a mod or my browser messed up.
*flails*

I basically said that you're right, we should have focused a lot more on toggle dropping, but even without the direct focus on it, people were firing off only god-knows what powers at her, blasters included (occasionally diving in and out of melee), and me firing a constant stream of force bolts between attempted holds.

I dont have a level 50 anything, my controller is level 30. The level 50 guy joined us for a few minutes, and he took her out completely on his own. Chainholds for the win, I guess.

Unfortunately I wasnt the leader of the team, and I was too busy trying to keep my dispersion bubble up, whilst using my END sapping "fly" power to keep up with them, whilst spamming forcebolts and holds to try slow her or keep her on her back. There should have been better organisation, true, but are you sure the fight turned out just because of those toggles?
A supposed level 40, exemped to level 30, up against eight level 29-30's? Even with dark armor, the only way I can personally see it boiling down as simply not knocking enough toggles off, is if DA has a super-strength style 'invincibility' style power.

I did notice that the battle was completely off-balance, and Lady Fuya had us sussed.. so I recalled everyone up to the top of ledge on a high-rise, that would be near impossible for a SJ'er to get to (with any speed that is). Once up there, we spammed our shields on everyone in case she got up, and we started to talk tactics. That lasted about two minutes until someone decided to jump off the building, Leeroy Jenkins style, convinced that he saw her run by with her SS on, and that he could 'ambush' her alone.

Im a controller by name and a controller by nature, but at the end of the day, if people keep breaking off and leaving the safety of two peoples group FF's, attempting to chase after someone they arent fast enough to catch up with.. what could I do? :P

I dont feel quite so robbed now that I remember how important toggle dropping is, but come on. 8vs1, 40 exemped vs 29-30's? Thats just humiliating.

..well, for whatever reason it happened like that, I guess the only way im going to learn to beat her, is to go back in there and get KO'ed a few more times. Its just odd, I didnt have much trouble taking down other villains in the area, and for the majority of those fights I was alone.

Actually, Lady Fuyas teammate "Abberation", who I think was also a brute, wasnt nearly as tough compared to her. He was stubborn, and scared us a few times, but we outnumbered him so he fell relatively easy. On the bright side, im sure every hero needs a villain of sorts to consider their nemesis. Problem being, that a lot of other people are out for her blood too..

Controllers, when they're good, they've very very good. When they're bad, they're terrible

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I havent PvPed in Sirens or Warburg as of yet, only BB, but can villains and heros do missions to improve the acc/def/res etc so that all villains/heros get that buff or debuff in those other PvP zones?

This might add to the problem


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Oh yeah... every time I go there the heroes are in -resistance and -damage. We had to spam missions just to remove the terrible resistance minus, but we finally did it. Anyone know what those plusses and minuses are capped at?

It never occured to me, but that would make it a lot worse. This never happened to me, never seen it happen, but picture this :

Villains :
Level 50 exemps down into Bloody Bay = Uber.
Villain team gets mass +res and +damage.
Hero team on -res and -damage.

Imagine the sheer level of ganking that could occur? :P
Then again, its not nearly as bad, considering Bloody Bay doesnt have a 'contract' feature, where you are trying to off a particular opponent. People would still be able to hide a lot. xD

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Just to be clear on this: you're using level 50 as an example, right? You are not actually saying that a level 50 villain walked into Siren's Call and beat the snot out of you, you're saying that a level 31+ villain did so? Yes?


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Yeah, I never actually got the chance to check out what her actual level was, because we were too busy getting smothered into the pavement. She was above level 30 and thats all I know for certain, but if it turns out she isnt that far above 30, that'll only make my confusion/griping worse.

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The brute is level 40 my character is 50 both SOed than so pretty much although there is a 10 level difference in slots....


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Then if there is a 10 level difference, maybe thats why you found her so easy. The other controller in our team who was also level 50 had absolutely no troubles with her either, for the time that he was with us.

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as for how good a night for villains was..well it was good till a proper team was assembled then they started the usual "you are lame" "come 1vs1" and other excuses like this lmao


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And beside my personal rambling, I do actually believe that nearly every tactic is valid... its a PVP zone, you have to play hard to win, right?
I just personally disagree with the few who actually try to others into debt, but that falls in line with the drone-debt and such. It might be nice just to turn off all XP debt and XP gain in the PVP zones just to stop the argueing and force it to be all about the fight

Although, I have to confess, I called Lady Fuya a coward a few times, but that was the frustration talking.

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anyway regarding the OP as u explain it then must be clearly due to SO difference and nothing more.


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So back to my original point, it sucks that original level can play such a large part in the combats outcome. My only real concern was that actual level 30 characters seem to have next to no chance against exemped highers levelled ones. The reason im harping on about this, is because I dont like the idea of higher level characters pushing out PVP'ers who are actually level 30 in SC, or level 25 in Bloody Bay.

If it were tweaked, then even levels 40-50 could get a challenge out of the younger PVP zones, and the younger PVP'ers will actually be able to fight back, or at least enjoy facing a harder opponent. I'll be using this 8 vs 1 example for a long while, because if its that off-balance then in my humble opinion, a tweak is definately needed.

Although, if anyone has any other experiences vs exemped higher level characters, please add them here!

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i ll just tell u this once...if u are 8 people and u cant take down one person than the problem is seriously at your end and not in game and enhancements...


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Actually we found it fairly easy to fight against certain others, we'd break off and hunt our targets between helping out at the hotspots, and they were good fights. Its not that we cant take out one person, its that we couldnt take out that higher-level person who had to be exemped to get into SC.

As convenient as saying the players are the problem, to use a power, we press the button that corresponds to it, then the game executes that power. If the power doesnt hit, or if its not effective, then that lies somewhere within the statistics of the game, and perhaps the enhancements of either my powers or hers. If most of my team have severe problems along the same lines, it points to her. Although on the bright side, if you're only going to 'tell me this once', then hopefully your next reply will have more insight than accusing my team of eight, of not knowing the basic tactics it should take to remove a single villain. We might have been sloppy at some parts in the fight but we're not completely incompetant. So hopefully your next reply might do a little more than insinuate we dont have a clue what we're doing. Inexperience and incompetance are different things, bud.

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just having 8 people on person and especially some of them stacking holds is just easy as hell....


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If its so easy then why did she strike on her first hit, through two dispersion bubbles, a deflection, an insulation, and a personal FF? Luck? Maybe. Attempting to repeatedly stack immobs and holds on her had no effect, not a single one of them took effect and im not even sure if even the partial effect of 'slow' occured either. Then what about having her knocked down, then surrounded by scrappers (if I remember correctly, there were three of them, four at one point), and throughout the number of times we did that, she only dipped into yellow health a few times?

The reason we spent so long on just her, is because we were so frustrated at not being able to touch that single person. Given what happened, we are left thinking that exemping isnt very effective on higher level characters. As I said, in 8vs1 even if we didnt KO her, she should have been in terribly low health each time we knocked her over and pommeled her with our scrappers.

How exactly can you say the problem is on our end? What else can we do other than repeatedly bombard her with our offensive powers, cover our allies with our defensive measures, and keep moving well so that we stay together in case of ambush, as she tried to pick us off? Even when she stopped darting around trying to pick off the squishes, and stood toe-to-toe with us, she punched straight through all the FF's (even my personal FF), to a stun on her first try, and managed to break through in two hits every time thereafter.

Because when it comes down to it, all we can do is arrange ourselves well, prepare well, and use our powers well. The basic elements of play. Positioning, movement, defense, offense. We covered them all enough that we should have been able to take her down.
What else could it be on our end that we were doing so wrong then? It has me wondering about inspirations now, but it was a fairly long fight that she was fighting our crowd through, she would have run out eventually.

Whats more, is her teammate Abberation (who I think was also a brute, but I cant remember exactly), was a lot easier to deal with. I dont recall his powerset, because as tough as he was, Lady Fuya was our main concern. Abberation really fought hard, but at least we could actually fight back against him.

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thats my opinion and especially after knowing that brutes build and seen how she plays...is just too damn easy to trap her and turn her to toast...


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Out of curiosity, what level is the character you used, and how many teammates did you have, if any?

In the end, this thread has very little to do with Lady Fuya as a character or a player. My point laid squarely in the fact that it seemed higher level players exemping down to lower level PVP zones, could easily mop up those who were actually at the PVP level.

Level 50 character -> Exemps to 30 = Uber PVP char.
Level 30 character -> Stays same on entrance = Normal PVP char.

Thats the way im looking at it right now. As you know, when you exemp, you do not revert in EVERY way to how you were at that level, your strength remains in some form, doesnt it? It might not sound like a lot, but 20 levels, even when exemped down to meet the requirements, is a lot of added punch, y'know?

Im just wondering if anyone has ever heard of something as ridiculous as this happening. With those levels and odds, she shouldnt have even stood a chance against us, but she did.. as much as i'd love to know why.. the main point of my topic here, was to mention that PVP isnt as biased as people think it is, and to bring up the subject of exemped ubercharacters completely mopping up PVP zones.

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well i dunno what the whole fuss is about as u say on your own hit and run tactics from a brute and a full pvp build pretty much does it..get acquainted with idea that a full pvp build seriously has advantage over medium or full pve builds...


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The fuss is about when 8 people cannot take down 1.
As I said, exemping isnt enough if a higher level character can come to a lower level PVP zone, and effectively walk over a full team of 8. Good PVP tactics and a strong build only account for so much, but when its 8vs1, and the 1 completely demolishes the others when we are all technically the same level.. its obvious that some more balancing needs to be done.

What is the point in limiting the PVP zones by level, if level 50's can come to the lower zones, and still pretty much fight like a level 50? Its not the fact that people got their [censored] kicked, because that happens all the time. Its the fact that the single person could mop up ALL of the people who are actually at the level the zone is supposed to be played with.

Effectively what will happen, if this isnt balanced out, is the level 50's will drive out all the younger characters from the PVP zones, as they wont be able to remotely stand a chance fighting against them, whether or not they have been exemped down. And if that ends up being the case, what exactly are the level-limits supposed to be for?

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I will simply have more respect for people who stay even when they know they are going to lose. That said, I think running about is fine if you stay away from the safe zone- make them work for the kill.


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Definately agreed. I dont mind getting owned, so long as the fight was a good show, or remotely even. If im facing a fight that I dont stand a chance of winning, I make it clear that im not interested, and make a quick exit. All I can say is that people should pick their fights carefully, even if you were the one who was attacked. At the same time, dont grief someone if they're a solo dominator/controller, and you run at them with three damage-dealers.

PVP might be competetive and heated, but its in the name of fun, being a jerk is optional. Hit and run tactics are a good way of fighting too, but I cant stand it when someone finds a weaker opponent, and makes it their business to only fight that one person, in a hope of upping their rep. Ruining someone elses fun by farming them for stat gains is just lame, im sorry but it is.

I personally dont mind if a team/character makes a tactical retreat to attempt to heal, or wait for a power to recharge, provided they dont go cowering back into their safezones. At the same time, people shouldnt complain about people 'being chicken' when they go back inside their safe zones, when they are sat there CAMPING the enemy safe zones border.

I hate to say it, but most of the problems with PVP and PVP ethics can be solved with a base level of sportsmanship and intelligence. Unfortunately, the online masses dont have either of those things, that is why there has been such an outburst of people who have been getting unnecessary debt, by being TP Foe'ed into NPC crowds, when at red health.

At the end of the day, mistakes happen. An enemy can have the full intention of finishing you off, but by bad luck, an NPC enemy might beat them to it, maybe partially because of an unlucky escape manuever that landed you next to a random mob. Sometimes, the enemy didnt mean to give you debt, although sometimes the entire aim of them engaging you in the fight was to try and get you into debt, for kicks.

The devs cannot enforce ethics, they can only balance and tweak. The sooner they sort out the debt-griefers, and work out the overpowered exemped hero/villain deal, the less tense the zones will feel. I personally will continue to play for fun, even if I do get a little serious at times. And you know what? I'll probably lose a lot more than most due to my own PVP morals, and you know what? I dont care! :3


Well, I dont care, provided I dont end up getting more debt by accident..
*shakes fist*
Other than that? If someone has me down to red health and I honestly dont see a way of escape or making a come-back? Just take the damned defeat, get back from the hospital quickly, and exact your revenge! If someone has earned it, let them have it (both the kill and the revenge as a result)

Strange, maybe I just confused the armor with the melee... y'know, with the accuracy debuffs.

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Were there any blasters during that little fight? DA is a resistance based set...


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I thought it was defense based? The ability to completely negate damage by avoiding the attack, but having to take full damage when it actually hits?

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so you shouldn't have had that much trouble hitting her at least. Although I suppose she could have been popping lucks or using some accolade I don't know about.


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That could be possible, but we were fighting for a good half hour, so she'd eventually run out of them. We came fairly close a few times, but only really got her close to KO once. We had a few blasters pass through the team, people occasionally left and we filled the holes pretty soon after. To start with we had a handful of scrappers, two blasters, a defender and me as a grav/ff controller. No such luck.

Oh, I tell a lie.. we did actually manage to KO her once, but that wasnt really a team effort. A level 50 controller joined us for a bit, and he took her out on his own, chainhold style. In my opinion, that doesnt count as a victory for us, it counts as a solo victory for him.

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Oh...and...
ZOMG! You suck...PvP is so unfair to villains!


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Dont make me hurt you! xD

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I've decided that I'll ignore any topic on the following:

a) tp foe (do we really need a thousand topics to discuss it?!)
b) PVP is unfair for heroes/villains


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Sounds like a good idea to me. Due to the multiple threads, its just a spam subject now, where everyone goes to throw their opinions around but achieve very little. I do however agree that TP Foe is being exploited, when it comes to giving opponents insta-debt. The deliberate giving of debt should really be against the rules of conduct of the game itself, just as it is against the rules to aggro a mob, then run by an AFK player, so that they faceplant as a result when you escape (and the mob jumps them on the way back).

Problem is, how will the devs make that change if they have to wade through so many topics to come to that conclusion? When there is too much spam they generally assume its just frustration and not actual need for change. You saw how many angry threats were made, and how many threats of leaving the game the devs recieved as a result of i5? Its not surprising that they wouldnt want to listen to us after the mass, obnoxious treatment they have recieved.

Oh well, i'll up-shut before this turns into a quad-paged rant on CoV, CoH, Politics, Equal Rights and World Peace. You know how it goes, right? :3