Primal

You know, I'm glad you're enjoying the, ah, reduction, or at least thinking positively about it. But this...:

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I *LIKE* this nerf because we could have gotten a heck of a lot worse, and I'm very thankful that, while I don't love the change and think there are better ways it could have been handled, things could have been much, much worse.

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...is about as damning a faint praise as I can imagine. Either I must

a) stand in awe of your pathetic whipped-dog mentality, that you mewl about how far up the [censored] we COULD have taken it, or

b) stand in awe of your diabolically devious wielding of sarcasm.

Either way, I stand in awe. I really am glad you're enjoying the change though....

I'm not sure I understand why PvP changes affect (effect?) PvE at all. After all, there are plenty of powers in PvP that don't apply to PvE...otherwise, an enemy Brawl could knock all your toggles off. And boy, would Tankers and Scrappers raise hell about that, but anyway.

I don't get it. Are we positive this is having any effect on PvE at all? And if it is, then bloody hell, WHY? I can understand the changes for PvP (though I don't give a rat's patootie about it), but I see zero reason for it to bleed into PvE. Please, don't give me any horseshit about it being "too powerful" for PvE. Hell, by the time a Stormer levels to where they can get it, they're gagging for most ANYTHING, so they deserve a good power.

If it JUST affects PvP, I couldn't care less. Otherwise, my Fire/Storm is nearly level 20, damnit.

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No, I'm not done with these sets, this was just a quick update while I was thinking about it.

'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.

Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.

Endurance costs. I did a pass on these a few weeks ago. I honestly don't remember which powers were changed at that time, but there were 2 or 3 that were the wrong cost. Trick Arrow is more problematic in this regard, and I've not looked at them yet.

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They need to get that out on DVD

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You mean like this?

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Whoa, that's cheaper than B&N. The temptation to pick it up is strong.

I like how the CASE is considered a "special feature". That + interactive menus (as opposed to...?) = an offer one can't refuse.

Wow, I had forgotten all about Hawk the Slayer. I saw that years and years ago, back when the station that is now the local Fox station was an independent job. They showed all KINDS of bizarre low-budget stuff late at night, and they never edited anything. I thought the movie was great at the time. Was it really rated R? (EDIT: Nope, PG)

Heh, a trip down memory lane. I'm gonna start crying over Old Yeller any minute now

EDIT: Oh my GOD, there is a DVD version! Someone in this thread wanted to know, so here you go. Only $24.98 for this baby, so place your orders now.

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Oh oh... someone's probably already suggested this but:

Replace one of the powers in the set with a utlity power. Using this power would apply a random secondary affect to the arrows.

Example, you use this power and set all your arrows on fire. You use it and add acid or posion for toxic. Etc etc. This could help with the lethal end of it.

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Ooh, I like. It could act kinda like those Council guns, that add either cold or fire randomly. I've seen them shoot fire bullets, and then ice bullets right after it. Just extend the possibilities to include toxic and...I dunno, energy. Any projectile can be enhanced, and essentially they all transfer energy.

Seriously, that's a good idea.

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The last post hits the major problem with all the arrow powers right on. That is for a game that means to replicate the feel of comic-book superheroism, these powers are as far from what an Archer hero as can be, other than the fact the powers use a bow and arrow.

You look at any hero that uses archery as his/her primary form of attack... whether it be in comic books, literature, film, etc... and I will point out the two factors that make them effective as a hero: SPEED and ACCURACY!

Now as things are, Archery and Trick Arrow are some of the slowest attacks out there. Yes, with I7 three powers are having their attack animations shortened. I say this is not enough. ALL arrow-based powers need to be faster. Arrow-attack powers are already weaker than any other based on the fact they are purely Lethal damage, which everyone knows has the most defense and resistance against it. Counteract this by giving the speed they need.

Finally, the point on Accuracy. For an Archery based hero, a miss should be a rarity. Again, citing the heroes for which this game is meant to emulate, a miss for them is very, very uncommon. If it does happen, it is because of extraordinary defenses, abilities, or circumstances happening with their target. So I say adjust the accuracy of arrow-powers to reflect this fact.

Do these two things I suggest, and you will make a person playing a hero who has choosen Archery or Trick Arrow feel like the hero they wish to be.

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Hear, hear. You and Vox together have summed up the problem very well.

Just go up against a Wyvern Boss some time, to see what Archery can do if it's actually worth a crap. Hell, even the Lts and Minions have insane accuracy...the damage may not be awesome, but their hit rate has got to be at the cap all the time. I swear they never miss.

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Okay Ruin_Of_Iron, first off, Waterworld was awesome and you'd better recant those nigh-heretical statements.

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DEATH FIRST! *shakes fist in defiance*

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The secret to enjoying Waterworld is to imagine someone else playing the Mariner besides Costner, or just ignore him. Ol' Kev can do some good work, but he can really stink up the place too if he (or his ego) gets too involved in the production. See The Postman. Or actually, don't, and save yourself.

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Heh, look, I see what you're saying, and can dig that if PPPs are the ONLY option. Characters that take those should (arguably) be held accountable for their decisions. I can understand the reasoning behind it, even if I'm not totally in agreement that it's the best way.

However, what I and others have also been clamoring for, is an alternative to PPPs. We want access to either a) a non-Arachnos Patron, or b) some At-specific Pools such as those for Heroes but aren't aligned with a Patron, or preferably c) both PLUS the PPPs. What we do NOT want, is to be railroaded into taking an Arachnos Patron, if we want to get any special powers AT ALL! Give us SOMETHING, anything! It's not so much to ask!

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Then you and I are in agreement. More options are always good, and a nonaligned patron (wouldn't Archmage Tarixus rock?) is an excellent idea.
I merely point out that i7 is, for all intents and purposes, done. They're already at the minor tweaking, code-polishing stage of things. If such an item isn't ALREADY in the build, screaming for it will not improve the situation. I'd MUCH rather have 5 perfectly-balanced, well-thunked PPPs, than six half-arsed ones because they crammed a nonaligned one in at the last minute to shut everyone up.

Capiche?

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Oh sure, and like I said earlier, it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if they send out I7 as is now, and give us the alternative post-40 Pools and arcs later. In fact, that's what I EXPECT them to do. I still have a bit of faith in this dev team to cater to my whims. Heh.

Of course, I can say that, because the characters in question here are nowhere near 40, and if they get there before then, I have plenty of other characters I can play. I'm just honestly surprised that Cryptic didn't consider that anyone would object to devoting themselves to Arachnos (and I realize that's an enormous assumption, but until I see evidence to the contrary...).

Okay Ruin_Of_Iron, first off, Waterworld was awesome and you'd better recant those nigh-heretical statements.

Heh, look, I see what you're saying, and can dig that if PPPs are the ONLY option. Characters that take those should (arguably) be held accountable for their decisions. I can understand the reasoning behind it, even if I'm not totally in agreement that it's the best way.

However, what I and others have also been clamoring for, is an alternative to PPPs. We want access to either a) a non-Arachnos Patron, or b) some At-specific Pools such as those for Heroes but aren't aligned with a Patron, or preferably c) both PLUS the PPPs. What we do NOT want, is to be railroaded into taking an Arachnos Patron, if we want to get any special powers AT ALL! Give us SOMETHING, anything! It's not so much to ask!

Sure, it's easy enough to say "then just don't take the new Pools and continue on like normal", like some have said, but ye gods man, talk about a slap to the face. To be given nothing. There'd be no point to going on after 40, save for sheer completion addicts.

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Seeing or Trying Out the Powers of Each Patron

This is for:

1. If you want to see if the powers of the patron 'fits' with your character concept (would my villain really carry a mace?).

2. If you want to try out all the powers and test them (especially to see what will make you uber in PvP).

Then do this:

1. On a Live Server, bring your toon up to level 49 without any of the Patron powers (don't do their arcs). Make sure you do the level 44 respec or save a free respec if it comes.

2. Copy your toon to Test four times. With each copy, run through each of the arcs.

3. On Test, respec each of your four toons into taking all the powers of your Patron. (Yes, I'm assuming that you can respec powers in the powerset, even though you can't change which Patron Powerset you have... just like AT powersets.)

4. Now that you know how your toon would be with each of the four Patron Powersets and without, decide which one you want.

5. If you choose no Patron Powerset for your main toon, do nothing. If you choose one of the Patron Powersets, then run your toon on live through that Patron's arc and then respec into those powers.

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You know, that's all well and good, and certainly possible. However, you DO realize that it means going from 41-49 without taking a single new power? Then at 49, you can copy to Test, and see which powers you would have enjoyed on those previous levels, but now are pretty much just useless tchotchke (except for that level...yay)?

Zombie_Man, if you or anyone else would like to make such a noble sacrifice for the good of the rest of us, then I salute you. Ye gods man, other people have "suggested" this before, but I'm not sure they really understand what they're saying. Grinding from 41-49 with ZERO new powers or slots, sounds like my own personal definition of Hell. Talk about tedium!

I'm not even positive that plan would allow you to even get the story arc(s), since you've outleveled it (maybe). Or you'd get it, but be facing -8s constantly (maybe). Too many variables, too many squandered opportunities.

Me, I think I'll just pick whatever PPPs are offered, and stick with them no matter what. See a previous post for my lack of real concern for permanentness or not. However, I will say that the solution quoted above, is a thousand times worse than the problem it's solving.

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Im sure some exists, so could someone just give me a few examples of something this doesnt work for?

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Well, my main is probably going with Ghost Widow, but that's because she actually respects her. Buttered Cat is not evil, but she's considered such because she's a Controller who does damage, and that's strictly against the Hero code. She's a lighthearted almost-jokey character and has a patently absurd backstory.

However, I have other characters who are also (for RP-ish reasons) not interested in Arachnos, but by and large don't have anything against them, either.

- My Corruptor is an ex Crey employee, who was abandoned by them after one of her wetworks assignments got botched all to hell. She has ZERO use for any authority at all now, and only contempt for Arachnos. She certainly isn't interested in any skullduggery against them...that would involve caring about them, and she doesn't. She's aggressively freelance. I have two MMs with the same (lack of) agenda.

- I have another Corruptor who is neither evil nor good, but perfectly neutral. She joins no factions and takes no sides. She is in the Rogue Isles only because the Law was scared of her power and put her in jail. Think X-Men on an individual scale. She is grateful to be out, but her perfect neutrality forbids her from joining Arachnos.

- I have one MM who IS planning to take over Arachnos first, then the world. Bokor is a powerful Vodoun sorceress and is eager to take her rightful place as ruler. Conceivably, she could use, and then dispense with, a Signature Villain. Ideally she'd operate totally on her own though....

I can come up with reasons for basically anything.

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Isn't it a little early to be reacting with this kind of vehemence?

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...And the reward for being the 427th poster in the thread to point this out IS...!

I kid. What I said has been repeated ad infinitum too. That's mostly what we do here, is rephrase and regurgitate.

Amazingly enough, I will not fly off the handle or scream about the "permanentness" of the Patron Power Pools (PPPs). That is of minimal concern to me, as I am disinclined to change powers around on a whim, am not the least bit worried about "maximum effectiveness" or powergaming, and certainly couldn't possibly give less of a [censored] about PvP.

However, I must voice my concern - not a rant, just a concern - about the following statement:

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You are not forced to do any of the Patron content.

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I have seen no evidence, and certainly no statements, about the possibility of ANOTHER "Patron", which is of the non-Arachnos variety. Some of my characters will pick an Arachnos patron, true, but others (in fact, most) are not interested in serving under them at all.

My basic question is, will there be an alternative to Arachnos? Even "Generic" would be acceptable, although sadly bland and boring. Or, as what I quoted above (maybe) implies, will we simply have to go without any extra powers? That latter case is the worst possible scenario. It frightens me.

Looks, here's the breakdown of how it looks from here:

- Scenario 1, and the best possible, is that we will have access to the four PPPs, an additional non-Arachnos-affiliated Patron, AND some generic pools similar to those in CoH.

- Scenario 2, we have the four PPPs, and one Generic Ancillary Power Pool per AT (as in CoH).

- Scenario 3, and the worst possible yet looks to be the likeliest, is that there will be the PPPs, and if you don't like any of them, [censored] you and you can choose from your standard powers like you have for the other 40 levels. Neener neener, conform to our ways or be sentenced to grind away those last 10 levels with NOTHING special to look forward to.

- Scenario 4 is Scenario 3 above, but an alternative set of pools is added later.

I suppose you can see what I think of Scenario 3. I hope it doesn't come to pass, but the cynic in me says it will, considering that NO evidence of any alternative has even been hinted at (that I've seen). I would love, DEARLY love, to be wrong.

Btw, don't be a [censored], this isn't a threat-to-quit post. I am merely saying that if Scenario 3 comes to pass, I will be deeply disappointed in the devs. Scenario 4 I can live with, as the actual characters in question are nowhere near 40...my main is probably going with Ghost Widow. However, offering NO alternatives but to serve Arachnos? I would consider that a slap to the face, and not the slightest bit what I expected from the devs or this game.

Like I've said, I hope that my concerns are unfounded.

You may continue with the usual back and forth.

Man, I need to go to bed...somebody do me a favor, scan through all these pages, and see if mine is a repeat. I'll change it tomorrow if it is.

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First...I confirm that we're working on right now (as in pohsyb in the next room) to add CoV costume parts into CoH if you own both games....

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"pohsyb" Hmmm.... so, uh, pohsyb, aye? I give up. I don't know what that means.

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Heh, pohsyb is another dev, though I forget exactly what s/he does. Yeah, I know, the new slang flies fast and furious around here, but that isn't one of those times.

Devs, I take back several bad things I've said about you. Oh sure, I've not posted a whole lot publicly, but in private, I've had a few choice words to impart. I humbly stand corrected, and am happy to be so.

Excellent stuff.

Now, about that ED thing....

Man, I'm feeling stupid today...having trouble getting across what I mean. I'll try again. (I've kinda gotten off-topic here.)

What I was saying is not that enemies do too much damage (to end and hp), but that certain enemies do too much in a single hit. It just shouldn't happen. If it all ADDS UP to you being defeated, or your end drained to nothing, that's fine. If a Boss or Elite or AV can kill you in TWO hits, we as players have the potential to deal with that too.

What we CANNOT deal with, is being one-shotted. Yes, I include the end bar in this as well...think of it like hp. There is NO challenge in this, it's just death, or detoggling. Mezzes at least can be broken, or negated with certain powers.

And yes, I do include AVs in this. NO AV in the game, at even level, should kill you or drain you in a hit. None, period, zero. Take us down to 1 hp, fine, but one-shotting should be out of here. I DO NOT CARE what AV it is, and I don't care what AT you are either. Even a Defender should be able to take a SINGLE AV attack and survive. Now, if that Defender's still there for the follow-up...well, can't help there.

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*coughsapperscough*

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I massively disagree with their powers too, and always have. No single even-level enemy, ever, should be able to drain all your end or HP in a single shot. Not even AVs. Yeah, there were ways around Sapper end drain (SR Scrappers and Regens with MoG, timing it JUST right with a blue, holds, etc.), but I find them just as "unfair" as a mag 100 stun.

I have a problem with cheap-shot enemy tactics in general.

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Though I don't see how this is worse than other mezzing mobs, though.

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Exactly...squishies have always had to deal with mezzing mobs in some way. I can certainly appreciate that they don't want to be mezzed at ALL, and if they are, that it's only for .25 seconds, and now it'll last...what, 5? 10? I dunno, never timed how long an enemy hold like that lasts. However, this is not precisely NEW for a squishy to be wary of mezzes.

It IS new for a Brute or Stalker to get mezzed (well, at least since they got their status protection power, if they have one), but really, that is NOT the issue here. The issue here is that even garden-variety Longbow were 100% guaranteed to be able to completely detoggle even the most status-resistant of ATs. It was a trump card, pure and simple, and the mind STILL boggles that a dev would pull such a cheap tactic.

It's just the principle of the thing...those ATs either HAVE status protection or they don't. The mere fact that the devs decided to give an enemy, and a Lt-level at that, the ability to just utterly negate ALL defenses, no matter the AT...it's staggering. It's damn near terrifying in its implications: could it be the beginning of a trend?

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Here's a great idea: get rid of inherent powers in all mobs. Make those powers toggle or click powers just like the player version. Carry the toggle-dropping aspects of powers over to PvE, and let us fight mobs on a leve lplaying field.

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I'm all kinds of behind that. Getting that Longbow Warden held is nice, but to see them still firing Quills AND floating in the air...well, it's just dumb. Yeah, I see the point to it while they're non-aggroed, as it makes the Stalker think twice, but I should be able to help the Stalker out, right?

That goes for those darn phase-shifting Carnies as well. Held = no more phasing.

It's not so much the damage - Quills is pretty weak, comparatively - but the principle.

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The mag 100 Stun is being replaced with a more standard stun (duration based, normal magnitude.)

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Um, thanks, but...you mean that was put in on PURPOSE? A mag-100 stun! 100% effective!

Ye gods, I was thinking it was a bug that was going to be fixed...and it turns out it's (the infamous) W.A.I. The mind, it boggles. Whose brainiac idea was that? No, really, who decided that what enemies needed was a guaranteed hold?

Christ, I'm beginning to agree with Nosybidaj in the Night Widow thread...sometimes the devs just throw in a "Here's some debt" trump card. I'm reminded of that AV in CoH...the Council vampire AV, whatever his name is. I'm blanking out at the moment. Anyway, that sorry bastage (at +0, btw) hit my Regen Scrapper with a single Smite for just under 4000 damage, enough to kill me 3 times over. It would have killed an Invuln Tanker twice. It wasn't a challenge, it wasn't even a pwning. It was just...I have no words.

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- No pet summoning

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Illusion bosses. BTW, the Spectral Terrors they summon come at WAAAAY too high a level. I've seen them at 43 in a lv. 32 ruthless mission.

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I've also seen them summon a particularly spiffy Singularity, whose immob does 126 damage PER TICK. I tell ya, it makes me feel rather inadequate. I'm a Gravity Dom myself, and my Sing's Crush does *7* damage a tick.

I try not to think about it....

EDIT: Btw, that Sing was a mere +2.

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Don't forget near constant kncokdown and disorient. For any team without protection from this (possible) you'll be spending a lot of time being knocked on your butt and wandering around aimlessly.

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There are times when I swear that every [censored] enemy in the game gets a [censored] grenade launcher, and they all use it first thing. It's just silly. And disorients...man I HATE disorients. They're essentially holds when used on us, yet when we use them on enemies they just cause mass scatter.

Btw, someone posted about Night Widows and their Smoke Grenades, and I agree that they're ridiculous. I've been on teams vs them, and they have essentially made me unable to do anything at all, because there's nothing to target. It might as well be a hold. Funny, SG for a Blaster doesn't do that....

Btw, the worst Longbow "attack" is that slow debuff. Is it Lingering Radiation? Yeah, that could be it. My god man, there's just nothing like just standing there while every single attack in your arsenal is just a little pinprick. And it seem to last a bloody long time. There is no inspiration to cure slow.

Geez, you people need day jobs! Then you'd not be wondering such things! Then you'd be like me, posting here and wishing I could be playing CoV instead of looking at insurance policies and answering dumb questions on the phone.

(Yes, yes, I know there are Euros and night-shifters reading...just indulge my whining.)

I only have one thing to say about this issue, so I'll just say it without further ado:

Whatever happens in PvP...I couldn't care less, as I don't bother with it. Those who are interested in it can hash out the AS there. However, if AS is made a NON one-shot kill in PvE, I will be VERY pissed off. That would make every fear I (and many others) had about PvP intruding into PvE come true, and would be the beginning of the end. I *LIKE* the way my PvE Stalker plays, and changing that for PvP reasons would break the game for me.

Now, if AS changes ONLY effect PvP? No skin off me. Like I said, I'll let those affected by such things argue about that.

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Did you still have that old freeky avatar when you posted? 'Cause that was, well, freeky.

/e hopes it wasn't a RL pic

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Funny you mention that. The avatar I had for the longest time was this (though much smaller), and I would often get PMs from, well, let us say, "lonely people". This despite the fact that my user page clearly says my name is Brad. Of all the names for girls, "Brad" is not one of them.

I might bring back ol' Innuendo Girl there...actually, I think I will. The untold plushy Cthulhu joke is getting stale.

Umm, I suppose I should at least attempt to make this post on-topic. Let's see...I know! Let's have a (labeled) pic of ALL the devs, or at least as many as can be gathered in one place. Males, females, question marks...whatever. That's the one Christmas present I want. Come on Cryptic devs and NCSoft support people! Somebody get a camera and get a group photo!

EDIT: Hey, what the heck have they done to the avatars? That picture looked just fine when I had it before, and now it looks all blurred and stretched-out. Don't tell me they resize to 80x80 no matter what!