Pilcrow

Double Post!

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A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

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The devs get 20 points for listening to the playerbase, 10 points for giving a boost to SR Scrappers, and 10 points for the same to Ice Tanks.

...however, they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.

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Right now, we’re working on some possible solutions for the fact that defense doesn’t scale with level (this affects Ice, Stone and Invulnerability). That’s an imbalance that we’re looking at. - Statesman

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+50 back to the devs since they DID warn us!

40 point to the devs! W00t!

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Technically, Pilcrow, although my greed is as great as yours concerning SR:

We have:
3Def (With Def Debuff Res, Heightened Perception and other goodies)

3Def + Scaling Dam-Res

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Well, VERY situational DMG RES. It's like calling reconstructions a resist power. Technically true, but...not really.

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Even as greedy as I am.... oh heck with it.. here's my greed:

Base values for passives/toggles should be 7.5%/15%

New power availability order should be:
FF/FS/Dodge/PB/Agile/Quickness/Evasion/Lucky/Elude

When Elude is active, all damage done has the words Dead Sexy flying up with the damage numbers like Scourge does.

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I'd be happy if they gave 1/2 the AE defense in evasion to dodge and the other haf to agile, then gave us a utility power where lucky is.

But I'd love to see more of my SR's DEF in the passives, too.

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Please combine some of the passives and give us a new power or two, even ones stolen from other sets (AIM, Power Boost, or self-buff versions of Speed Boost, Accel Metab, RA etc.).


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Puh-puh-puh-puh-power boost?

Why yes, I'll take power boost.

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Just the power boosting part. You have elude when you want to up your defense that much.

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So when will you be announcing that all +DEF powers have been cut in half?
We've only reduced one power, since it was a kluge fix to the problem that is no longer necessary. Essentially, Super Reflexes power sets Defense will be the same in effectiveness at Melee, Ranged and AoE ranges. Currently, SR has a bonus vs AoE attacks that was added to help them against tougher opponents with higher Base To Hit values.

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Ummmm, while you're mucking about with SR...

Can you consolidate the 6 +DEF powers in this set down to 5 or 4 and put some more ultility powers in there. It would really balance SR with other sets since they all either have more utility powers or more variety in their protection.

SR = 6 +DEF/-ACC, 1 MEZ Protection, 1 Utility, 1 Level 38 Monster
DA = 2 DMG RES, 2 +DEF/-ACC, 1 heal, 1 MEZ Protection, 3 utility
Inv = 4 DMG RES, 1 DEF, 1 MEZ, 1 heal, 1 utility, 1 level 38 Monster
Regen = 4 Heal, 1 Resist, 1 Mez, 2 utility, 1 level 38 Monster
Energy = 3 DEF, 1 Mez, 1 Resist, 3 utility, 1 level 38 Monster
Ninja = 3 DEF, 1 Resist/heal, 3 utility, 1 Mez, 1 level 38 Monster

Every set has more variety in the defense they offer and uses fewer powers to get their central protection than SR. SR deserves teh same.

Please combine some of the passives and give us a new power or two, even ones stolen from other sets (AIM, Power Boost, or self-buff versions of Speed Boost, Accel Metab, RA etc.). Just give us a bit more variety, please.


<-------Greedy

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There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.
Someone give Arcanaville a cigar!


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!

Now, since my ego simply has to know: did one of my suggestions finally get stuck on someone's shoe and then tracked into the right cubicle, or was this always on the boards as a potential solution to the problem that simply required sufficient coding time to engineer?

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Does it matter?

Still. I've some belief that your Guide to Defense that demonstrated the problem so clearly had no small effect on this change.

PS - when you gonna update that guide?

PPS - If I understand this corretnly, it seems to leave ToHit Buffs as the achillies heel to defense.

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a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.


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Which was yours?

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if you cant figure out min was an "informative" post, I feel bad for your brain cell. may it live long and prosper.

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The above is an example of combining informative and funny, with an added element of flaming for spice.

This post falls under commentary - a category not listed by poisonbox and therefore of no value unless accompanied by humor.

<-----Wasting your time.

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Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.

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Psy and toxic do not penetrate resistances.

Its only that characters dont have resistances to the types, and truth be told, no one has any def against toxic so toxic will always ignore defense, and few sets have def against psy (some may have it in the form of melee/range/aoe def but no stright psy def)

So, under the TotalBuffedACC * (1-Def/50) formula, ACC bonuses still works as well as DMG bonuses do against resistances, they get mitigated but not ignored.

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I understand that Psi and Toxic don't penetrate dmg res, they "bypass" DMG RES because people typically don't have dmg res against those types.

Since most people with defense have defense against ranged, melee and AE, (although some do have defense typed by damage, and others have both!), 2Hit buffs are the games method of "bypassing" DEF.

Thus, I stand by my speculation.

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So maybe the simplest way to put it is:
FinalToHit = TotalToHit - ((TotalToHit/50)*TotalDefense)

TotalToHit being the attacker's ToHit after buffs, debuffs, purple patch, level difference, class difference, etc. etc.

TotalDefense being the target's Defense after buffs, debuffs, blah blah blah etc. etc.

Does that sound right?

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Yes, exactly that, you can make it even simplier like this:

TotalToHit * (1-Def/50)

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Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.

I.E. Your equation says (Base_2Hit + Net_2Hit_buff) * (1-Def/50)

I suspect it will more likley be akin to:

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * (1-Net_DEF/50) + Net_2Hit_buff

Where Net_DEF = DEF + (DEF_Buff - DEF_Debuff)

and

Net_2Hit_Buff = (2Hit_buff-2Hit_Debuff)

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I didn't even think one-shotting was possible in COV.

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Then you might find this post interesting. They even put it on "film".

Controllers, Defenders, Masterminds and Stalkers all have low enough HP to be one-shotted by a Stalker's AS when the Stalker is damage capped. Some can be one-shotted with just AS + BU.

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Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier


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The problem with this one would be that you are doing nothing to help with even enemies (or any level enemy) that has accuracy that is higer than 50%, so AVs, Bosses, turrets, etc, would still be gimping Defense.

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Ooops. Good point there.

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NOW, if you did Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Rank_bonus

Then you do indeed get an actual scaling, but as far as i know, the rank bonus is not a calculated bonus itself, but simply the base of this enemy.

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But the "rank bonus" is really just: (Base_2Hit/50) so that additional factor simply requires re-leveraging a variable we already know. We don't need any vodoo, just add * Base_2Hit/50 to the end of the formula.

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Base_2Hit/50, rank is covered, too.

For example, let's look at a guy with 25% DEF

<ul type="square">[*]Even con minion: 50 * 1 - 25 * 1 * 50/50 = 50-25 = 25 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation[*]+1 minion: 50 * 1.1 - 25 * 1.1 * 50/50 = 55 - 27.5 = 27.5 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation[*]even con boss: 65 * 1 - 25 * 1 * 65/50 = 71.5 - 32.5 = 3.5 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation[*]+1 con boss: 65 * 1.1 - 25 * 1.1 * 65/50 = 71.5 - 35.75 = 35.75 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation[/list]
I don't know if that produces the same results as your formula or not. Probably pretty close even if different since we're trying to guess how to accomplish his stated goal.

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Another issue is we are still leaving buffs and debuffs out.

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Well, not DEF debuffs. Just treat the DEF variable in my simplified initial funtion is NET defense (DEF - DEF_Debuffs + DEF_Buffs) and you have DEF buffs and debuffs accounted for.

But, assuming they wanted ACC buffs and debuffs to scale, too, they would make them multiplicative instead of additive debuffs.

If you apply a -5% ACC debuff to an enemy it is essentially added to their Base_2Hit. So a -5% ACC debuff would lower a minion to 45% ACC, and lower a Boss to 60% ACC, etc. That portion of the accuracy fornula looks like this:

Buffed_2Hit = Purple_Patch_multiplier * Base_2Hit +(2Hit_Buffs - 2Hit_Debuffs)

To make it scale you would change it to a multiplicative scale based on minion's Base_2Hit

Buffed_2Hit = Purple_Patch_multiplier * Base_2Hit * (50 + (2Hit_Buffs - 2Hit_Debuffs))/50

So now a -5% ACC debuff would lower an even con minion to 50% * (50%-5%)/50% = 50% * 45%/50% = 50% * 90% = 45%

And the same -5% ACC debuff would lower an even con Boss to 65% * ((50%-5%)/50% = 65% * 45%/50% = 65% * 90% = 58.5%.

If you wanted 2hit buffs to stop penetrating DEF, you would change the formula to:

Net_2Hit = Buffed_2Hit - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Buffed_2Hit/50

But I suspect that they WANT 2Hit buffage to penetrate DEF, ergo the formula would be:

Net_2Hit = Buffed_2Hit - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Base_2Hit/50

PS - I...I just wish this post had more formulas. So, let me turn it into one grand unified formula!!!!

Net_2Hit = Purple_Patch_multiplier * Base_2Hit * (50 + (2Hit_Buffs - 2Hit_Debuffs))/50 - (DEF + (DEF_Buffs - DEF_Debuffs)) * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Base_2Hit/50

See, it's simple!

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It's like a goth's livejournal where they swear this time they are totally going to commit suicide, but they just want to see how many comments they get for the threat post.

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Not every time

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Puffy was a king among trolls. No one has yet to come close to his level.

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Was?

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o.O


Is...


*throws memory dust at thread and runs away*

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...That's Talcum powder.

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Wait wait wait... someone was a bigger troll than the Icarus_Factor?!

While I agreed with some of the things he said, the manner in which he said it had all the finesse of a habanero burrito fart.

I would have to rate him top troll overall, and definitely most eloquent troll ever.

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He wasn't a troll...he was like an early Pilcrow...

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Personally, I enjoyed Icarus Factor. He could skewer a person's post with a skill and grace those other trolls could only pretend to match. And he did so often, with great glee. When he had facts to skewer with, he'd use them and use them well. But he was more than happy to resort to personal attacks and dismissive quips if that was what he felt it took to skewer his opponents.

Frankly, I miss him, even though he sometimes infuriated me, because when someone would pipe in with something amazingly stupid, he could lay a smackdown second only to what cuppa can do, and without any admin tools to back him up!

But I'm suprised anyone would think he and I were alike in some way. I asplode sometimes, but usually prefer not to go for the full frontal attack the way he did.

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Puffy was a king among trolls. No one has yet to come close to his level.


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I don't know about that.

UniqueDragon reached his level with one post just for sheer insanity and off the wall lunacy of it all.

Ripperjack was heading near there before he figured out he got more attention by doing a character and thus ruined it by laying it on too thick.

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I don't know, Puffy didn't limit his trolling to the boards. He was such a troll that it encompassed his entire gaming experince.

He put himself on Virtue where the hard-core RPers live (because he knew some were a bit anal about their RP), read the Virtue forum to find out people's in-game pet-peeves and then specifically did those things. Then, he had the unmitigated gall came back to the very same boards with posts that not only celebrated his brilliance in finding ways to piss off the RPers on Virtue, but actually indignant that they had reported him for griefing.

It was like performance art, in your face, incredibly weird, incredibly sincere, yet with motive and meaning unclear.

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See, see. Lookit, Darkstar, Pilcrow is doing it to you also. Go get him.

Wait, actually he did it to me, too.

::Shakes fist in the air::

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What'd I do?

Other than speculate, that is?

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OK i have two theories of how it may work. The two posible formulas in my head are either:

a) (ToHit + buff - debuff) - DEF/50 * (ToHit + buff - debuff)
b) (ToHit - DEF/50 * ToHit) + buff - debuff

I made a small excel sheet with these forumlas so you can see the results with diferent numbers of enemy acc, debufs and buffs.


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Seems to me that the simplest solution would be to multiply your DEF by the same purple patch multiplier that increases the MOBs Base toHit.

So, if you're taking on a minion who has a 50% chance to hit you, and you have 20% DEF, you should get hit 30% of the time. Without your defense, you would have been hit 50% of the time. So, your DEF has reduced your damage 20/50 = 40% actual damage mitigation.

If the MOB is +1, his purple patch multiplier is ~ 1.1 (1.094). Raising his ToHit to 55%. If they multiplied your DEF by 1.1 it would be 33%. So the MOB would now hit you 55%-33% = 22% of the time. That means that your DEF has reduced your damage 22/55 = 40% actual damage mitigation.

In formulas that says it changes from

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF

TO

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier

The purple patch multiplier is above 1 if the MOB is higher con than you, and below 1 if the MOB is lesser con than you. So if it is as simple as that, they would be making your DEF less effective against foes that con blue and green in exchange for the better mitigation against reds and purples. That wouldn't be bad, but I suspect they may floor the effects of this change at 0 con foes, just as it is ceilinged at +5 cons.

I suspect that if the MOB is more than +5 levels above you, then your DEF is multiplied by the PPM for a +5 MOB instead of the actual con differntial (so a +6 hits you the way a +1 does today), and if the MOB is even con or below, they set the PPM to 1.

Hopefully they will tell us, but that seems the simplest way to go about it.

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Wow, that's certainly a nice change!

Is that strictly for +defense powers, or will -accuracy powers be included in this also?

EDIT: Also, under the new system, if you're fighting a +6, will you have the defense value as if you were fighting a +1 today, or is there going to be a steep defense dropoff between +5 and +6 enemies?

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Echosing the two questions in this post.

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Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

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Under "better late then never": WOOT!

I certainly hope that it slowly devolves after +5 con instead of a +6 con being as hard as it is today with only DEF!

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First...I confirm that we're working on right now (as in pohsyb in the next room) to add CoV costume parts into CoH if you own both games....

Then we repeal the hated stealth nerf. The reason why: many well reasoned posts. It's that simple. You guys pointed out the problems.

AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn. A ton of forum goers disliked adding so many AV's into missions a while back...so we've come up with a solution. If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.

In order to incentivize larger teams, Positron is going to add a bonus to AV rewards!

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That sounds like a smart implementation, but when you say an Elite Boss, I hope you don't mean that the AV will spawn as an Elite Boss.

AVs are supposed to be special. I would prefer that when my group size is too small, etc. that they AV not be in the mission, but at least I got one of the factiosn bosses.

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My suggestion is that people grow up and stop acting like little babies because they get beat in PvP. If your entire world crumbles down around you every time you get beat in a game, maybe you need to stop playing them and go get some therapy. So you get one-shotted in pvp? So what? Big deal. What's it cost you but a little bit of time to get back to the fight, assuming no one is there to rezz you? Do you lose xp? No. Do you get debt? No. All you suffer is a small amount of time out of the fight. IT'S A GAME. Grow the hell up.

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You're right. That's much more constructive than the ideas I posted links to.

I don't know if you noticed, but IT'S ALL A GAME. So, why should you be getting so upset that the devs are considering changing things so one-shots cannot occur?

And now, for the most useless card in the deck.

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Enhancement Diversification

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I'm outdone before I even get into the game, but... Ah, I'll play anyway. Well played, Mr. El Salvador. Well played.

The Vision

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These are both usually followed by THIS CARD!

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So glad someone put that card in play, because now I can play...this card:

Puffy Shirt

PS - Here are the cards I made last time we did this.

Brilliant He_Who_Watches!

I, ummm, fixed the formatting for you...

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Twas the night before Christmas, when all through City
Not a creature was stirring, not even Shoulder Kitty.
The stockings were hung by the Teleporters with care,
In hopes that St. Cuppa soon would be there.

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The lowbies were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of Hammi-O’s danced in their heads.
And Healer in her ‘kerchief, and I in my cap,
Were logging out our mains for a long winter’s nap.

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When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from the forge to see what was the matter.
Away to the base portal I flew like the Flash(tm),
Tore open the shutters and readied my blasts.

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The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below.
When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a miniature Cuppacopter, and eight tiny Moditeers.

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With a little caffeinated driver, so lively and so tact,
I knew in a moment it must be St Cuppa, fresh from a Modsmack.
More rapid than eagles her Mod team they came,
And she whistled, and shouted, and called them by name!

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"Now Awry! now, Valdermic! now, Tsirin and Aura!
On, Castle! On, Arctic Sun! on, on Vyvane and Alexa!
To the top of Atlas’ Globe! to the top of the Warwall!
Now Jump away! Fly away! Port away all!"

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As villains that before the Stormy’s hurricane fly,
When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky.
So up to the base-top the Mod Team they flew,
With the Cuppacopter full of Salvage, and CuppaJo too.


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And then, in a twinkling, I saw, quiet like a ghost
The Modding and Editing of each little post.
As I drew in my head, and was turning around,
Through the base portal Cuppa came with a bound.


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She was dressed all in fur, and smelled slightly of toffee,
And her clothes were all stained with spills from hot coffee.
A bundle of Salvage she had flung on her back,
And she looked like a Freakshow, or maybe a packrat.


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Her eyes-how they twinkled! her dimples how merry!
Her cheeks were like roses, her nose like a cherry!
Her droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
And the flame proof suit was as white as the snow.


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The stump of a candy cane she held tight in her teeth,
And Hero 1’s sword on her side in it’s sheath.
She had a sweet face and a little shoulder panda,
That shook when she laughed, like cold guy in Can'da!


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She was cheerful and wise, a right jolly old elf,
And I laughed when I saw her, in spite of myself!
A wink of her eye and a twist of her mug,
Soon gave me to know she’d recently busted a thug.


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She spoke not a word, but went straight to her work,
And filled all the stockings, and Modsmacked a jerk.
And laying hers finger aside of her nose,
And giving a nod, out the base portal she rose!


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She sprang to her Cuppacopter, to her team gave a whistle,
And away they all flew like the DE hurled thistle.
But I heard her exclaim, ‘ere he drove out of sight,
"Happy Christmas to all, and to all stop posting quote pyramids. I mean it!!"

Post deleted by Alexa

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The only two solutions I can see both have flaws.
One is to only allow PvP when both sides agree to it as in the arena...but that didn't work because the arena was seldom used.
The second is to put a cap on damage from a single attack.

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Just wanted to note that there are a lot of suggestions out there, all with their own flaws mind you, but more than the two you are considering:

<ul type="square">[*]Pippy suggests that all PCs con Red to one another, thereby decreasing their accuracy to about the same level as the +25% DEF manages today and also decreasing their DMG/DEBUFF/CONTROL to ~65% of it's current strength in PVP[*]Arcanaville suggests that getting the full damage from AS only hit some of the time, thereby forcing Stalkers to plan for the post AS game, but allowing the occasional one-shot[*]cohRock suggests something he calls the 7/70 Warranty which would insure you 7 seconds of combat in a manner pretty fair to the person dealing damage[*]Hunter has a thread exploring a DOT solution, which would convert some of the damage you receive to DOT sp you have time to react.[*]There are a number of ideas in my Ending PVP 1 Shot Kills thread (although my OP was pretty flawed) including the one I have settled on as my personal favorite...[*]My notion to just leave one-shotting alone, but turn all awakens/rezzes into combat rezzes in PVP, making retribution a real factor for the one-shotter and giving the one-shotted a way to protect their loot (has been veryu controversial)[/list]
I think the solution you like best depends on what you think the real problem is, but there are more sophisticated solutions than the two you map out.