Pilcrow

Some Results
For those who can’t or don’t want to download the spreadsheet, here are some results to guide yourself with. First, know what I used as my default setting in the calculator:

Basic Variable Settings
<ul type="square">[*]My results are based on +0 SOs slotted into PA[*]Results with Hasten give it as a .49 boost to reflect that it is no longer "perma"[*]AM, Siphon Speed Etc. assume those are “perma”[*]I split attack time 50% melee, 50% ranged, this is one area where YMMV significantly[*]My results were calculated against minions[*]My results were calculated against even cons unless otherwise noted[*]My results assumed 0 DEF on the MOBs[*]Changing any of the three above items makes ACC more important to slot[/list]
Under ED, slotting more than 1 ACC became a good idea against +2 and better MOBs. You'll see that in the results.

I want to stress that the difference between the worst possible slotting (perma-PA) and the best possible slotting is usually only ~30%. I.E. – perma PA is 70% as “optimal” as the most optimal slotting. So in most cases as you play with different optimal slottings, you are moving within a pretty small range of values. Therefore, slotting to fit your playstyle/rhythm is probably MORE important than hitting the “supposed” optimum. After all, if the slotting you picked is “missing” ideal timing enough for you to notice, then it’s probably effecting you at least 1 in 10 combats.

Finally, and I can’t stress this enough. These statistics are about balancing the uptime of PA with its DPS. But I don’t want to leave the impression that damage is the “way to go” with PA. Their ability as an agro sink is a very powerful control, especially by I5 standards. I would advise you against a pure damage slotting as much as I would against “perma-PA”.

Legend
<ul type="square">[*]X sec downtime btw casts – The amount of time between when the previous PA despawns and the first spawning of the next PA[*]available X% of play time – If you cast PA every time it recharged, this is the % of time it would be there[*]X DMG per Cast (BI) - The total DMG the PA will produce (as a multiple of your base brawl a la the Brawl Index) in the 60 seconds it is active[*]X DPS (BI) – The DMG per Second PA will produce not during a cast but during your entire playtime if you were to cast it each time it were active under ideal conditions;[*]X% of max uptime – The uptime of this slotting vs. the maximum possible uptime (6 Slotted for recharge)[*]X% of max DPS – The DPS of this slotting vs. the maximum possible DPS[*]X% of max optimization score – The optimization score of this slotting vs. the max possible optimization score. The optimization score is computed by adding the % of max DPS and the % of max uptime[/list]
Without Hasten vs. Even Con Minions
<ul type="square">[*]Perma - 57.03 sec downtime btw casts; available 51.27% of play time; 33.53 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.29 DPS (BI); 100% of max uptime; 29.9% of max DPS; 67.3% of max optimization score[*]1 DMG - 59.8 sec downtime btw casts; available 50.08% of play time; 63.9 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.53 DPS (BI); 97.69% of max uptime; 55.67% of max DPS; 79.45% of max optimization score[*]2 DMG - 62.71 sec downtime btw casts; available 48.89% of play time; 94.26 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.77 DPS (BI); 95.37% of max uptime; 80.18% of max DPS; 90.95% of max optimization score[*]3 DMG - 65.82 sec downtime btw casts; available 47.69% of play time; 120.54 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.96 DPS (BI); 93.02% of max uptime; 100% of max DPS; 100% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 3 DMG - 87.06 sec downtime btw casts; available 40.8% of play time; 139.65 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.95 DPS (BI); 79.58% of max uptime; 99.12% of max DPS; 92.58% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 4 DMG - 123.05 sec downtime btw casts; available 32.78% of play time; 145 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.79 DPS (BI); 63.94% of max uptime; 82.68% of max DPS; 75.96% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 5 DMG - 183 sec downtime btw casts; available 24.69% of play time; 150.28 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.62 DPS (BI); 48.16% of max uptime; 64.55% of max DPS; 58.39% of max optimization score[/list]

With Hasten vs. Even Con Minions
<ul type="square">[*]Perma - 35.5 sec downtime btw casts; available 62.83% of play time; 33.53 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.35 DPS (BI); 100% of max uptime; 28.74% of max DPS; 67.1% of max optimization score[*]1 DMG - 37.31 sec downtime btw casts; available 61.66% of play time; 63.9 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.66 DPS (BI); 98.13% of max uptime; 53.75% of max DPS; 79.16% of max optimization score[*]2 DMG - 39.2 sec downtime btw casts; available 60.48% of play time; 94.26 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.95 DPS (BI); 96.27% of max uptime; 77.79% of max DPS; 90.71% of max optimization score[*]3 DMG - 41.19 sec downtime btw casts; available 59.29% of play time; 120.54 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.19 DPS (BI); 94.37% of max uptime; 97.51% of max DPS; 100% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 3 DMG - 54.32 sec downtime btw casts; available 52.49% of play time; 139.65 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.22 DPS (BI); 83.54% of max uptime; 100% of max DPS; 95.65% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 4 DMG - 74.65 sec downtime btw casts; available 44.56% of play time; 145 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.08 DPS (BI); 70.92% of max uptime; 88.15% of max DPS; 82.9% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 5 DMG - 104.07 sec downtime btw casts; available 36.57% of play time; 150.28 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.92 DPS (BI); 58.2% of max uptime; 74.98% of max DPS; 69.41% of max optimization score[/list]
With Hasten and AM vs. Even Con Minions
<ul type="square">[*]Perma - 25.91 sec downtime btw casts; available 69.84% of play time; 33.53 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.39 DPS (BI); 100% of max uptime; 28.15% of max DPS; 67.07% of max optimization score[*]1 DMG - 27.37 sec downtime btw casts; available 68.68% of play time; 63.9 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.73 DPS (BI); 98.33% of max uptime; 52.75% of max DPS; 79.07% of max optimization score[*]2 DMG - 28.87 sec downtime btw casts; available 67.51% of play time; 94.26 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.06 DPS (BI); 96.67% of max uptime; 76.5% of max DPS; 90.62% of max optimization score[*]3 DMG - 30.46 sec downtime btw casts; available 66.33% of play time; 120.54 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.33 DPS (BI); 94.97% of max uptime; 96.11% of max DPS; 100% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 3 DMG - 40.72 sec downtime btw casts; available 59.57% of play time; 139.65 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.39 DPS (BI); 85.3% of max uptime; 100% of max DPS; 96.97% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 4 DMG - 56.05 sec downtime btw casts; available 51.7% of play time; 145 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.25 DPS (BI); 74.03% of max uptime; 90.12% of max DPS; 85.91% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 5 DMG - 77.08 sec downtime btw casts; available 43.77% of play time; 150.28 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.1 DPS (BI); 62.67% of max uptime; 79.07% of max DPS; 74.18% of max optimization score[/list]
Without Hasten vs. +2 Minions
<ul type="square">[*]Perma - 57.03 sec downtime btw casts; available 51.27% of play time; 27.81 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.24 DPS (BI); 100% of max uptime; 26.23% of max DPS; 68.44% of max optimization score[*]1 DMG - 59.8 sec downtime btw casts; available 50.08% of play time; 52.99 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.44 DPS (BI); 97.69% of max uptime; 48.82% of max DPS; 79.44% of max optimization score[*]2 DMG - 62.71 sec downtime btw casts; available 48.89% of play time; 78.17 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.64 DPS (BI); 95.37% of max uptime; 70.32% of max DPS; 89.84% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 2 DMG - 65.82 sec downtime btw casts; available 47.69% of play time; 104.18 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.83 DPS (BI); 93.02% of max uptime; 91.4% of max DPS; 100% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 3 DMG - 87.06 sec downtime btw casts; available 40.8% of play time; 133.23 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.91 DPS (BI); 79.58% of max uptime; 100% of max DPS; 97.38% of max optimization score[*]2 ACC + 3 DMG - 123.05 sec downtime btw casts; available 32.78% of play time; 139.65 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.76 DPS (BI); 63.94% of max uptime; 84.21% of max DPS; 80.33% of max optimization score[*]2 ACC + 4 DMG - 183 sec downtime btw casts; available 24.69% of play time; 145 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.6 DPS (BI); 48.16% of max uptime; 65.87% of max DPS; 61.83% of max optimization score[/list]

With Hasten vs. +2 Minions
<ul type="square">[*]Perma - 35.5 sec downtime btw casts; available 62.83% of play time; 27.81 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.29 DPS (BI); 100% of max uptime; 24.98% of max DPS; 68.1% of max optimization score[*]1 DMG - 37.31 sec downtime btw casts; available 61.66% of play time; 52.99 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.54 DPS (BI); 98.13% of max uptime; 46.72% of max DPS; 78.93% of max optimization score[*]2 DMG - 39.2 sec downtime btw casts; available 60.48% of play time; 78.17 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.79 DPS (BI); 96.27% of max uptime; 67.62% of max DPS; 89.29% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 2 DMG - 41.19 sec downtime btw casts; available 59.29% of play time; 104.18 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.03 DPS (BI); 94.37% of max uptime; 88.34% of max DPS; 99.55% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 3 DMG - 54.32 sec downtime btw casts; available 52.49% of play time; 133.23 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.17 DPS (BI); 83.54% of max uptime; 100% of max DPS; 100% of max optimization score[*]2 ACC + 3 DMG - 74.65 sec downtime btw casts; available 44.56% of play time; 139.65 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.04 DPS (BI); 70.92% of max uptime; 88.99% of max DPS; 87.13% of max optimization score[*]2 ACC + 4 DMG - 104.07 sec downtime btw casts; available 36.57% of play time; 145 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.88 DPS (BI); 58.2% of max uptime; 75.83% of max DPS; 73.03% of max optimization score[/list]

With Hasten and AM vs. +2 Minions
<ul type="square">[*]Perma - 25.91 sec downtime btw casts; available 69.84% of play time; 27.81 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.32 DPS (BI); 100% of max uptime; 24.47% of max DPS; 67.17% of max optimization score[*]1 DMG - 27.37 sec downtime btw casts; available 68.68% of play time; 52.99 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.61 DPS (BI); 98.33% of max uptime; 45.85% of max DPS; 77.81% of max optimization score[*]2 DMG - 28.87 sec downtime btw casts; available 67.51% of play time; 78.17 DMG per Cast (BI); 0.88 DPS (BI); 96.67% of max uptime; 66.5% of max DPS; 88.05% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 2 DMG - 30.46 sec downtime btw casts; available 66.33% of play time; 104.18 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.15 DPS (BI); 94.97% of max uptime; 87.07% of max DPS; 98.24% of max optimization score[*]1 ACC + 3 DMG - 40.72 sec downtime btw casts; available 59.57% of play time; 133.23 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.32 DPS (BI); 85.3% of max uptime; 100% of max DPS; 100% of max optimization score[*]2 ACC + 3 DMG - 56.05 sec downtime btw casts; available 51.7% of play time; 139.65 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.2 DPS (BI); 74.03% of max uptime; 90.98% of max DPS; 89.05% of max optimization score[*]2 ACC + 4 DMG - 77.08 sec downtime btw casts; available 43.77% of play time; 145 DMG per Cast (BI); 1.06 DPS (BI); 62.67% of max uptime; 79.97% of max DPS; 76.98% of max optimization score[/list]

[ QUOTE ]
I was a little disappointed to see my comment deleted. I wasn't rude or abusive in any way. I stated my opinion, just as everyone else has.

It must have hit a bit close to the mark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or it may have been in a reply chain that started with a rude or abusive post. When the rude or abusive post is deleted, all replies to that rude post (and to its replies) are deleted along with it.

On hot topics, it's usually best to click reply on the OP to protect your posts from this kind of collateral deletion. Even if you're being polite, there's no guarantee the people before you were being polite.

UPDATED FOR ED, THE NEW: Pilcrow’s Phantom Army (PA) Guide

This guide began as a way to answer the question “Should I Perma-PA?” (meaning: should I slot 6 recharges into PA, which even with Hasten is not quite perma).

The short answer was: No. Put in at least 1 DMG enhancement. Under ED the answer is now EMPHATICALLY NO! 6 slotting PA for recharge is a fool's bargain. A typical build will get 86% more DPS and lose only 2% of PA’s uptime for that one enhancement. Slotting for max damage per cast (1 ACC + 5 DMG) is also inadvisable, at least 1 recharge is more optimal because you get more uptime and more DPS (less per cast but the more frequent casts more than make up for it). Under ED you want to lean towards a slotting with no more than 3 of the same enhancement. So, 1 ACC, 2 DMG, 3 RECH and 3 DMG, 3 RECH are the new "best" builds.

Caveat: If you want PA purely as a control, slot to perma.

Anyhow, this guide documents how I came up with that answer and tells you a lot of other stuff about PA. It even has a calculator (Updated to include ED) to figure out the perfect PA slotting for your specific character. Ain’t that cute.

The guide is more about slotting PA than using it, so if you need that more basic tactical information, and the section on the basics doesn't cut it for you, theres a simple but nice Using Phantom Army Guide you can look at.

Anyhow, I hope you find it useful. If you get nothing else out of this guide, try to keep the following in mind
<ul type="square">[*]Perma-PA (all recharge) is probably a mistake. Slot only 3 recharge 2-3 DMG and 0-1 Accuracy unless you want “pure control”.[*]If you typically fight even cons, you can get away with slotting DMG &amp; RECH only. If you typically fight red and above slot 1 ACC in with your DMG and RECH.[*]Your goal is to have PA’s recharge rate fit well with your typical combat cycle. A “perfectly” slotted PA that spends a lot of time unclicked, or that makes you delay combats waiting for recharge is a poorly slotted PA.[*]The “worst” slotting and the “best” slotting used to be within 20% of each other, but even under ED everything except pure recharge and pure damage are withing 25% of the ideal, so it's still best to focus on fitting your playstyle.[/list]
Phantom Army Basics (as of Issue 5)

Phantom Army is unique in a few ways, even amongst pets. It is the only pet that does illusory damage, like Spectral Wounds does. That means that some of the damage it delivers heals back automatically a few seconds later. Furthermore, if you slot damage into the PA, it increases the amount of damage it does, but the healback remains the same, which gives you A LOT of bang from slotting for damage. And since the pets can be attacking while you are doing other things, you have even more incentive to slot these for damage.

But PA is also an invulnerable, but targetable pet. It controls enemies by taunting them, but shines as an absorber of the alpha strike by the MOBs, who concentrate their initial attacks on these invulnerable, targetable pets instead of…you. Mid-combat, they are also fabulous for taking three MOBs essentially out of the fray and focusing their attacks on these three unkillable pets.

So, an eternal debate exists about how to slot these puppies. If you’re into control above all else, you should slot them 100% for recharge so they are available as often as possible to absorb aggro. But if you were about control above all else, you probably wouldn’t be an illusion controller in the first place.

On the other hand, PA is one of the best controls available to Illusion (or even to any controller in I5). So slotting it the the new "ideal" under ED: 1 ACC + 3 DMG + 2 RECH to maximize the DPS may not be an ideal way to go, either.

So how do you decide which way to slot PA? Well, use this handy-dandy guide, of course!

The Ideal
First off, we have to figure what an ideal slotting of PA would be. Ideally:
<ul type="square">[*]PA would be recharged at the start of each combat to absorb the alpha strike[*]Each combat would last exactly 60 seconds so that none of your PA’s damage was “wasted” because PA was up with no-one to fight[*]The time it takes you to rest or walk or buff or whatever until the next combat would be exactly the time it takes your PA to recharge so it’s ready to absorb the next alpha strike, but it never sat in your tray unused[*]PA will do the maximum possible damage while meeting those other conditions.[/list]
Now, you’ll never hit those conditions. But that’s what you want to slot towards. A PA that is available at the start of more combats than not, but that doesn’t spend a lot of time in your tray unclicked. Obviously, the big variable here is how much time your combats take. But no matter what the numbers show you, they aren’t as important as striving towards that ideal. If a slotting you see is 5% below “optimum”, but you have PA available to take the alpha 10% more often with the “substandard” slotting, then you came out ahead.

The reason people tell you to Perma-PA is that it maximizes the number of times it’s there to absorb your alpha strike. That’s an easy benefit to note and an easy slotting to get it. Same story with people who advise you to maximize DPS. Easy to know how to slot for that, and an obvious benefit.

Slotting towards the more complex ideal is less straightforward, because there’s no set amount of time between combats. The key here is to make your best informed guess and play with it for a while. Then move up and down the chart of ideal slottings based on what your play experience tells you. Too much downtime on PA? Add a recharge in. Sits in your try unclicked too much? Replace a recharge with something else.

The Calculator
It’s an excel spreadsheet that can be downloaded from here. I will try to keep it up there as long as humanly possible.

Some Results
For those who can’t or don’t want to download the spreadsheet, I'll follow this post with some updated for ED results from the Calculator.

Assumptions Used
Most of what we know of Phantom Army comes from Geko’s Post defending the changes to Phantom Army when Issue 2 changed them significantly.

From this post we know that:
<ul type="square">[*]PA has 75% accuracy[*]PA casts 1-4 decoys (3 each cast after I5)[*]Ranged attacks are a bit faster than melee attacks (10 ranged/cast vs. 7 melee). Between this and some testing it appears that a melee attack takes 8 seconds to cycle and a ranged attack takes 6 seconds to cycle. (I would love some additional testers, I had a hard time keeping the PA at range.)[*]Another little tidbit, it seems that the cycles for a ranged and melee attack are not intertwined. So if you could get the PA to come in and out of melee range, you’d get extra attacks because it would cast the ranged attack, cast the melee attack when it would have idled waiting for the ranged to recharge, cast a ranged when it would have idled waiting for the melee to recharge, etc.[/list]
My testing of PA, which I would LOVE some people to confirm or deny, reveals the following:

PA seemed to attack about once every 4 seconds or so at range and a melee attack every 8 seconds. Geko’s figures say a ranged attack takes 6 seconds and a melee one takes about 8 seconds. That’s not my experience in I5, but I’m going to use Geko’s implied numbers for ranged attacks in my analysis. I’ll update that guide based on testing feedback from others.

I’ve Brawl Indexed Phantom Army on two different illusionist (lvl 18 and lvl 36) and come up with the following. Please let me know if you have different results:
[*]Melee: 6.09 - 4.83 autoheal = 1.26 [*]Ranged: 3.76 - 1.79 autoheal = 1.97

Finally, some other “facts” that are in my assumptions:
<ul type="square">[*]PA has a duration of 60 seconds with a recharge of 240 seconds. [*]Hasten is a 0.7 recharge effect and can be “perma” with 6 +0 SOs[*]I made some educated guesses on the recharge boost of AM, Siphon Speed, Etc. Precise numbers would be appreciated.[*]A +0 Recharge, DMG, or ACC SO delivers +0.333 Bonus[*]Accuracy caps at 95% and floors at 5%[*]Accuracy is computed as follows: Chance to hit = (1 + Acc SOs) * (Base ToHit * Purple_Patch - Defense of target + ToHit bonus)[*]Purple Patch Modifiers are as per Ladioss Sopp's spreadsheet[/list]
Caveats
I've done my best to test the numbers I've used, but it would be nice to have some others test and see if you get the same results. Specifically, there are a couple of things I'm hinky on because I haven't gotten confirming tests from others.:

<ul type="square">[*]The BI of PAs two kinds of attacks (melee and ranged)[*]The Attack rate of the ranged attacks (melee was pretty easy to get since they stayed still and spammed it, but ranged was hard to get because they kept closing to melee)[*]I believe I have the right formula for accuracy, but I'm not positive[/list]
Let me know if your test results seem to differ or if you find an outright error in the guide or calculator.

Enjoy your decoys.

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[ QUOTE ]
1acc3dmg1rech1end: 309% of base DPS, but much more reasonable END cost

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This is what I've been telling people since 30 seconds after I found out about ED.

1 Accuracy Enhancement boosts our base to hit to the 95% cap
3 Damage Enhancers boosts our damage resonably without taking a sever ED hit
1 Attack Rate Increase to boost DPS and make up for the lack of perma hasten
1 Endurance Reducer to compensate for the increased Endurance consuption becuase your attacking more frequently and to reduce dependance on Stamina.

I didn't need a spreadsheet or be a math wiz to figure out that this would be the optimal slotting post ED.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, many of us saw that intuitively. The spreadsheeting just demonstrates that the intuition is accruate.

And while we're here, let's take 30 seconds to plug Centinull's 30 second guide to slotting post-ED

Arcana has made a GREAT post on Enhancement Diversity slotting strategies. I am linking it for you, but here is a summary:

Generally speaking for a damage attack your best slotting under ED is
<ul type="square">[*]1acc3dmg2rech: 363% of base DPS, but 67% more END cost
OR[*]1acc3dmg1rech1end: 309% of base DPS, but much more reasonable END cost
SO[*]Reslot most of your offensive powers one of these two ways under ED
AND[*]Most control and many buff powers can benefit from similar slotting[/list]
The heart of the post repeated, for those of us who like numbers:

[ QUOTE ]

No Hasten, 2/8 activation/recharge:
<ul type="square">[*]6dmg: 210%[*]1acc5dmg: 260%[*]1acc4dmg1rech: 317%[*]1acc3dmg2rech: 363% * best[*]1acc2dmg3rech: 352%[*]3dmg3rech: 325%[/list]
Hasten, during hasten window:
<ul type="square">[*]6dmg: 313%[*]1acc5dmg: 387%[*]1acc4dmg1rech: 427%[*]1acc3dmg2rech: 459% * best[*]1acc2dmg3rech: 425%[*]3dmg3rech: 393%[/list]
Best ED attack slotting is 1acc3dmg2rech, for maximum dps.

You will, however, be burning 67% more end than the baseline unslotted attack. This slotting:

1acc3dmg1rech1end: 309% (no hasten) / 416% (hasten)

is 15% less damage without hasten, about 9% less damage under hasten, with a 40% drop in end costs over time.


The actual best slotting might possibly change under optimum full attack chains, but I haven't seen one yet that radically alters the best slotting strategy.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, you read me right. That's exactly what I was asking, Thanks, Pilcrow.
Dire news indeed, especially resistance wise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dire, yes, but not as dire as people like to make out.

As noted in my original post, if your power can genuinely benefit from recharge, you can get pretty close to your old DPE and DPS under ED.

If your power does NOT benefit from recharge, though, you're bearing the full brunt, which is about a 30%-35% loss of net effecivity.

The "good" news is that if you've left a power on the table in your build, you'll likely have the slots to take it and 3 slot it under ED, and you'll likely have the END to keep your shields up and offend.

For example. Let's look at an Invulnerability Scrapper's S/L DMG RES:

PRE-ED 6 SLOTTED[*]Resist Physical Damage BASE = 5.625%, 6 Slotted = 12.375%[*]Temporary Inv BASE = 22.5%, 6 Slotted = 49.5%[*]Unyielding BASE = 3.75%, 6 Slotted = 8.25%
[*]Total 6 slotted = 70.125% S/L DMG RES

POST-ED 3 SLOTTED[*]Resist Physical Damage BASE = 5.625%, 3 ED Slotted = 8.83125%[*]Temporary Inv BASE = 22.5%, 3 ED Slotted = 35.325%[*]Unyielding BASE = 3.75%, 3 ED Slotted = 5.8875%
[*]Total 3 ED slotted = 50.04375% S/L DMG RES

So this Scrapper is 50/70 = only 71% as able to absorb S/L as they were before ED. There's that 30% we keep hearing.

Only, realistically, most people slot in 1 END on their toggles. So it's more like:[*]Resist Physical Damage BASE = 5.625%, 6 Slotted (auto!) = 12.375%[*]Temporary Inv BASE = 22.5%, 5 Slotted = 45%[*]Unyielding BASE = 3.75%, 5 Slotted = 7.5%
[*]Total 5 slotted = 64.875% S/L DMG RES

Or 50/64.8 = 77% as effective as before ED. So the loss is 23%, not 30%.

Finally, if we pursue the DEV's "Vision" then we might actually diversify our slotting. Let's take a quick look at one possibility:[*]We gain back 3 slots for each auto power, RPD in this instance, but realistically we get 9 slots by 3 slotting ALL the Auto Resists[*]We DON'T gain back our 5th and 6th slot on the toggle powers, because they're busy holding END REDUX enhancers, so we can...[*]Drop the Fitness Pool, freeing up 3 power slots to get the...[*]Fighting Pool, which gives us Tough

Not the only scenario. Maybe you already have the Fighting Pool, so you use the extra slots to put recharge in your offense and give up the the speed pool because you don't need hasten anymore, and you get Medicine for Aid Self instead of getting Fighting for Tough, or you keep fitness and slot up health to increase your regen rate. I'll use Tough because it's the "easy" example, not because it's the only way to increase your melee character's survivability by diving into the shared pools.

OK, then, back to our regularly scheduled program. You use ED to free up some slots and free up a power pool and you get something to increase your survivability. In this case...Tough. Now let's compare our new post-ED INV Scrapper + Tough to our pre-ED non-Tough INV Scrapper:

Post-ED + Tough[*]Resist Physical Damage BASE = 5.625%, 3 ED Slotted = 8.83125%[*]Temporary Inv BASE = 22.5%, 3 ED Slotted = 35.325%[*]Unyielding BASE = 3.75%, 3 ED Slotted = 5.8875%[*]Tough BASE = 11.25%, 3 ED Slotted = 17.6625%
[*]Total 3 ED slotted = 67.70625% S/L DMG RES

Hey, don't tell anyone, but we're actually MORE effective than a guy who slotted one END in his toggles before I5. And we're doing it for significantly less END because we're 3 slotted END REDUX in our shields. Maybe the loss of Stamina makes our net END available per second less overall, but I doubt it. I might run the numbers later, but I'm betting that 3 END REDUX in those shields will serve us as well as 1 + stamina used to. Let's take that as an assumption for now.

And the guy who had 6 slotted, we're at 67.7/70.1 = 96% of his effectivity, and better END consumption as well.

Now, if you were already min/maxxed in your build with tough on top of all your primary shields, ED is hitting you for 20-30% of your base effectivity - no question.

But if you haven't min/maxxed yet and you roll with the ED punch, you're looking much better than 30%.

I'm going to try an exhaustive DEFENSIVE analysis later (I'm working on offense first), but as you can see from this example, it's not nearly as gloomy as it looks at first - unless you are already min/maxxed.

More to come. Happy Gaming.

[ QUOTE ]
Possible effects of Baffle:
<ul type="square">[*] Mortificator plays boombox and dances - 30%[*] Mortificator randomly heals one of your teammates - 30%[*] Mortificator taunts you in L33T - 30%[*] Mortificator spams Local for p/l while using CoV panhandling emote - 10%[/list]


[/ QUOTE ]

&lt;----ROTFLOL

From the I6 on Test Release Notes

Stores:

Most stores and contacts that only sold 10 types of Enhancements of a given type will now sell all Enhancements of that type. (In other words, we fixed key stores that were selling just the Power 10 to sell all Enhancements of that type).

Enhancement Diversification:

This is a new system being implemented into City of Villains and City of Heroes (when City of Villains launches) to promote the use of more different types of Enhancements in powers. Using a system of diminishing returns, when slotting the same type of Enhancement into a power, you will begin to see less effect of that Enhancement when the bonus reaches a certain threshold. The effectiveness of Enhancements you are slotting in can now be seen in the Enhancement Slotting screen.

What does this mean?
Simply, if you are slotting Enhancements and your bonus to a single attribute reaches 70% through Enhancements, you will begin to see a drop in the amount each Enhancement should be giving you. If you exceed 100% bonus, then the drop will be more severe. We have added to the Enhancement Slotting screen a display of how much bonus you are getting from your Enhancements. When you are adding in Enhancements that will be reduced in effectiveness you will be able to tell.

Note that this only affects Enhancements of the same bonus. So you can have a Damage bonus of 66.66%, and an Accuracy bonus of 66.66% (from 2 SO Damage and 2 SO Accuracy Enhancements) and you will not be affected in any way. Adding in another SO Damage Enhancement will not give you a 99% bonus, but a 94% bonus, because the damage bonus now exceeds 70%.

A good rule of thumb is “2 Single Origins Enhancements = No Reduction. 3 SOs = Slight Reduction. 4, 5 or 6 SOs = Major Reduction”

(Also note that the above examples are for Enhancements that are +8.35% bonus for Training, +16.6% bonus for Dual Origin, and +33.3% bonus for Single Origin)

What if I don’t have more than 2 SOs of any one type in my powers already?
Then you have nothing to worry about, your character will function exactly as they did previous to this feature being added.

Does this affect Dual Origin Enhancements at all?
Yes. If you have 5 DOs of all the same type you would normally get an 83% bonus. Because of Enhancement Diversification your bonus will actually only get an 82% bonus. If you have 6 DOs of all the same type, instead of a 100% bonus you will have a bonus of 95%.

Are Hamidon Enhancements affected?
Yes. The bonuses that a Hamidon Enhancement gives you that exceed 70% will be reduced. Because of this change, Hamidon (and other dual-purpose) Enhancements are now combinable. You can only combine dual-purpose Enhancements that affect ALL the same bonuses (so you can combine Damage/Accuracy with another Damage/Accuracy, but not with a Damage/Range Reduction).

This totally cripples my character! I thought you were done balancing the game?
All the Issue 4 and 5 balance adjustments were done with this system in place internally here at Cryptic. All playtests, QA checks, difficulty adjustments and balances have been done with Enhancement Diversification in mind since March 2005.

What about Stamina? I need this to make sure I have enough Endurance to power my powers.
Because of the effect that Enhancement Diversification has on the Stamina power, we are lowering the Endurance cost of every non-Auto power in the game by 13.33%.

What if a power only takes one type of Enhancement to begin with?
You have a couple of choices. You can respec the character and only go so far as putting a couple slots into the power, or you can go with more slots and eke out a little more effectiveness out of the Enhancements.

How can I tell when I am not getting full effectiveness out of an Enhancement?
On the Enhancement Slotting Screen you will now see what bonuses Enhancements are giving you, and what effect slotting the next one will have. This will help you make the choice as to what Enhancements to slot over what.

Does it matter what order I slot Enhancements in?
No. The reduction in effectiveness is calculated off the total bonus you are receiving, so it does not matter what order you slotted the Enhancements in.

How is combining Enhancements affected by this?
Enhancements that are higher level than you give you a bonus above normal Enhancements, if you combine Enhancements to get a higher bonus, this may put you over the point at which a reduction in effectiveness takes place.

Some Enhancements give me a 33.33%/16.66%/8.35% bonus, and others give me a different bonus, how are these affected by Enhancement Diversification?
There are four categories of Enhancements, Schedule A, Schedule B, Schedule C, and Schedule D. The majority of Enhancements fall into the Schedule A category. This means that an even-level Training Origin Enhancement gives an 8.35% bonus, an even-level Dual Origin Enhancement gives me a 16.66% bonus, and an even-level Single Origin Enhancement gives a 33.33% bonus. All of the examples above assume using Schedule A Enhancements, since these are the most common.

Schedule B Enhancements are things Defense Buff, Damage Resistance, Range Increase and To Hit Buff. These have a smaller bonus because a small shift in these values has a larger impact on gameplay. With these Enhancements a Training Origin Enhancement gives a 5% bonus, a Dual Origin Enhancement gives a 10% bonus, and a Single Origin Enhancement gives a 20% bonus. Enhancement Diversification for these bonuses kicks in at 40% with a severe drop at 60%.

What Enhancement Types are what bonuses (schedules)?

Schedule A Enhancements (33.33%, 16.66%, 8.35%) are:
Accuracy, Confuse, Damage, Defense DeBuff, Drain Endurance, Endurance Discount, Fear, Fly, Heal, Hold, Immobilize, Intangible, Jump, Recharge, Recovery, Run, Sleep, Snare, Stun, Taunt, To Hit Debuff
These bonus types start to see reduction when the bonus is 70% or more, and a severe reduction at 100% bonus or greater. So your bonuses when slotting in multiples of the same Single-Origin Enhancement work out to:

1 SO: +33.3%
2 SO: +66.6%
3 SO: +95%
4 SO: +100%
5 SO: +105%
6 SO: +110%

Schedule B Enhancements (20%, 10%, 5%) are:
Range, Defense Buff, Resist Damage, To Hit Buff
These bonus types start to see reduction when the bonus is 40% or more, and a severe reduction at 60% bonus or greater. So your bonuses when slotting in multiples of the same Single-Origin Enhancement work out to:

1 SO: +20%
2 SO: +40%
3 SO: +56%
4 SO: +59%
5 SO: +62%
6 SO: +65%

Schedule C Enhancements (40%, 20%, 10%) are:
Interrupt
This bonus type starts to see reduction when the bonus is 80% or more, and a severe reduction at 120% bonus or greater. So your bonuses when slotting in multiples of the same Single-Origin Enhancement work out to:

1 SO: +40%
2 SO: +80%
3 SO: +112%
4 SO: +118%
5 SO: +124%
6 SO: +130%

Schedule D Enhancements (60%, 30%, 15%) are:
Knockback
This bonus type starts to see reduction when the bonus is 120% or more, and a severe reduction at 180% bonus or greater. So your bonuses when slotting in multiples of the same Single-Origin Enhancement work out to:

1 SO: +60%
2 SO: +120%
3 SO: +168%
4 SO: +177%
5 SO: +186%
6 SO: +195%

How to "TEST" Enhancement Diversification on your current build:[/b]

THIS POST IS MOOT, I6 is on TEST now.

Shadow_song in a PM asked:
[ QUOTE ]

Hey man you've obviously got it going on with ED, So I thought I'd ask for a little help.

I understand the basics, but what I do not understand is this.

How does the lv of the SO affect ED? I am slotted with HO's which are even lv. If I slot 3 of those instead of 3 SO's at +3, how much worse off will I be?

[/ QUOTE ]

Essentially, the HARD cutoff is at 100% boost. Anything less than that will give you a significant, noticeable boost, anything above that will give you so little bang for your buck that you shouldn't put any effort into slotting that.

So, if I were to compare 2 even level HOs to 2 +3 SOs, I'd steer you towards the SOs because you haven't hit the HARD cutoff yet.

2 even level HOs = 66.6%
2 +3 SOs = 75.6% under ED

But you're talking about THREE, and that's right at the HARD cutoff.

3 even level HOs = 95.4%
3 +3 SOs = 97.7% under ED

So, I'd keep your HOs if I were you and spend my influence in other ways.

Also, I smell a potential HammiO nerf rollback in the wind. Sayeth Statesman: "We wanted to be able to vary the % of Enhancements moving into the future. With ED, we now can have a single Enhancement that boosts Damage by 50%. Players can't horde many, many copies of said Enhancement, because there is still an ultimate cap."

Didn't some HammiOs used to be 50%? I think so. May be worth keeping until he comes clean about what he means by that.

[ QUOTE ]

A question. If I wanted to leave 4 damage slots in a power, and I slot 3 SOs and 1 DO Damage, would that be equal to 4 SOs under ED? and if not, why?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are trying to EMULATE ED under the current system, then 3 even level SOs + 1 even level DO will give you 116.7% bonus. Under ED 6 +3 SOs gives you a Bonus of only 115%, so it's a pretty good test of what 6 +3 SOs would feel like. If you're more likely to slot 6 even level SOs, then trade that DO in on a TO.

But I think you're asking me this. Would 4 even level SOs give you about the same bonuse as 3 even level SOs + 1 even level DO once ED is live, and if not, why not?

Does 4 SOs = 3 SOs + 1 DO under ED?

Well. ED works like this. You keep multiply the first 70% of your enhancement bonus by 100%, the next 30% gets multiplied by 85% and the remainder gets multiplied by 15%. So...

4 SOs = 133.3%
3 SOs + 1 DO = 116.7%

ED(X) = if(X&gt;70% then 70% else X) + if(X&gt;100 then 30% * 85% els (X-70) * 85%) + if(X&gt;100% then (X-100) * 15% else 0)

OR simplifying that for everything over 100% you get...

70 + 30 * .85 + (x-100) * .15 = 70 + 25.5 + (x-100) * .15 = 95.5 + (x-100) *.15

So...

4 SOs = 15% of (133.3%-100%) + 95.5% = 4.995% + 95.5% = 100.5%
3 SOs + 1 DO = 15% of (116.7%-100%) + 95.5% = 2.505% + 95.5% = 98.0%

4 SOs = 100.5%
3 SOs + 1 DO =98%

That SO is still DOUBLE the strength of the DO. But when the SO is only worth 5%, it's pretty easy to say 2.5% is meaningless.

Then again, my raise last year was less than 2.5%.

So, are they EXACTLY equal? No. Are they practically equal? IMO, yes.

If I were you, I'd use the 4th slot for Rech Redux, End Redux, Secondary Effect, heck even range. 5% more damage doesn't excite me any more than 2.5% does, but it's your character.

Hope this post gave you the information you needed to make up your mind.

That looks reasonably accurate. Hasten speeds its own recharge, so things get a bit hinky, but you're in the ballpark.

Or, for the less math inclined, you could simply use the semi-perma hasten multiplier.

Take your 440 second power, you plan to put in 6 SOs and have post-ED semi-perma hasten so you multiply by 38% to get 167.2. About 2.5% off, but ball-park enough to know whether or not you'll go mad under ED.

Thanks for asking the question. More to come, more to come.

How to "TEST" Enhancement Diversification on your current build:

This Post is MOOT. I6 is now on TEST. Just copy your character over to TEST and play them to see how ED will feel.

Instructions for getting onto test can be found HERE.

[ QUOTE ]
Can any math whiz (or CoV player) tell me how, exactly, this affects recharge reducers? I need a starting point in order to apply the 85% and 15% numbers, but I can't seem to figure out the current math for how recharges work.

I'd like to figure out what sort of recharge times I'd get on things like Hasten and Dull Pain using 4 SO's, 6 SO's, even-level, +3's, etc. TIA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pre-ED[*]1 even-level SO = 75% of base recharge time[*]2 even-level SO = 60% of base recharge time[*]3 even-level SO = 50% of base recharge time[*]4 even-level SO = 43% of base recharge time[*]5 even-level SO = 38% of base recharge time[*]6 even-level SO = 33% of base recharge time

Post-ED[*]1 even-level SO = 75% of base recharge time[*]2 even-level SO = 60% of base recharge time[*]3 even-level SO = 51% of base recharge time[*]4 even-level SO = 50% of base recharge time[*]5 even-level SO = 49% of base recharge time[*]6 even-level SO = 48% of base recharge time


Pre-ED + Hasten[*]1 even-level SO = 49% of base recharge time[*]2 even-level SO = 42% of base recharge time[*]3 even-level SO = 37% of base recharge time[*]4 even-level SO = 33% of base recharge time[*]5 even-level SO = 30% of base recharge time[*]6 even-level SO = 27% of base recharge time


Post ED+Hasten ***[*]1 even-level SO = 49% of base recharge time[*]2 even-level SO = 42% of base recharge time[*]3 even-level SO = 38% of base recharge time[*]4 even-level SO = 37% of base recharge time[*]5 even-level SO = 36% of base recharge time[*]6 even-level SO = 36% of base recharge time

*** Hasten cannot be "PERMA" under ED, so when it is NOT active, your recharge time will revert to the non-hasten rates.

EXAMPLE:

Dull Pain has a recharge of 360 seconds. With 6 SOs its recharge used to be 360*33% = 120 seconds. With ED it becomes 360*48% =~173 seconds. If Hasten is up, its 360*36% =~131 seconds.

Here's a shot at the multiplier you would use for "SEMI-PERMA" Hasten to account for the downtime inherent in the power now. The downtime should be about 20% if you have it 6 slotted so...

SEMI-PERMA Hasten[*]1 even-level SO = 53% of base recharge time[*]2 even-level SO = 45% of base recharge time[*]3 even-level SO = 40% of base recharge time[*]4 even-level SO = 39% of base recharge time[*]5 even-level SO = 38% of base recharge time[*]6 even-level SO = 38% of base recharge time

What the Devs have said about ED:

CuppaJo (for Positron) - Enhancement Diversification
[ QUOTE ]
(This is a repost due to forum issues. My initial warnings in the first thread did not seem to make any difference. This is your ONLY warning. Abuse of other posters, mods, devs or anyone else will be removed and you will be banned.)

I wanted to give you all a little heads up on something that we've had in the works since March of this year that is finally seeing the light of day soon.

Your questions and comments will help refine the patch notes so that we can make this new system as clear as possible for all players.

As always, we ask that you play and test the changes before crying "DOOOM".

Without further ado...

Enhancement Diversification:

This is a new system being implemented into City of Villains and City of Heroes (when City of Villains launches) to promote the use of more different types of Enhancements in powers. Using a system of diminishing returns, when slotting the same type of Enhancement into a power, you will begin to see less effect of that Enhancement when the bonus reaches a certain threshold. The effectiveness of Enhancements you are slotting in can now be seen in the Enhancement Slotting screen.

What does this mean? Simply, if you are slotting Enhancements and your bonus to a single attribute reaches 70% through Enhancements, you will begin to see a drop in the amount each Enhancement should be giving you. If you exceed 100% bonus, then the drop will be more severe. We have added to the Enhancement Slotting screen a display of how much bonus you are getting from your Enhancements. When you are adding in Enhancements that will be reduced in effectiveness you will be able to tell.

Note that this only affects Enhancements of the same bonus. So you can have a Damage bonus of 66.66%, and an Accuracy bonus of 66.66% (from 2 SO Damage and 2 SO Accuracy Enhancements) and you will not be affected in any way. Adding in another SO Damage Enhancement will not give you a 99% bonus, but a 94% bonus, because the damage bonus now exceeds 70%.

A good rule of thumb is “2 Single Origins Enhancements = No Reduction. 3 SO’s = Slight Reduction. 4 SO’s = Moderate Reduction. 5 or 6 SO’s = Major Reduction”

What if I don’t have more than 2 SO’s of any one type in my powers already? Then you have nothing to worry about, your character will function exactly as they did previous to this feature being added.

Does this affect Dual Origin Enhancements at all? Yes. If you have 5 DO’s of all the same type you would normally get an 83% bonus. Because of Enhancement Diversification your bonus will actually only get an 82% bonus. If you have 6 DO’s of all the same type, instead of a 100% bonus you will have a bonus of 95%.

Are Hamidon Enhancements affected? Yes. The bonuses that a Hamidon Enhancement gives you that exceed 70% will be reduced. Because of this change, Hamidon (and other dual-purpose) Enhancements are now combinable. You can only combine dual-purpose Enhancements that affect ALL the same bonuses (so you can combine Damage/Accuracy with another Damage/Accuracy, but not with a Damage/Endurance Reduction).

This totally cripples my character! I thought you were done balancing the game? All the Issue 4 and 5 balance adjustments were done with this system in place internally here at Cryptic. All playtests, QA checks, difficulty adjustments and balances have been done with Enhancement Diversification in mind since March 2005.

What if a power only takes one type of Enhancement to begin with? You have a couple of choices. You can respec the character and only go so far as putting a couple slots into the power, or you can go with more slots and eke out a little more effectiveness out of the Enhancements.

How can I tell when I am not getting full effectiveness out of an Enhancement? On the Enhancement Slotting Screen you will now see what bonuses Enhancements are giving you. This will help you make the choice as to what Enhancements to slot over what.

Does it matter what order I slot Enhancements in? No. The reduction in effectiveness is calculated off the total bonus you are receiving, so it does not matter what order you slotted the Enhancements in.

How is combining Enhancements affected by this? Enhancements that are higher level than you give you a bonus above normal Enhancements, if you combine Enhancements to get a higher bonus, this may put you over the point at which a reduction in effectiveness takes place.

Some Enhancements give me a 33.33%/16.66%/8.35% bonus, and others give me a different bonus, how are these affected by Enhancement Diversification? There are four categories of Enhancements, Schedule A, Schedule B, Schedule C, and Schedule D. The majority of Enhancements fall into the Schedule A category. This means that an even-level Training Origin Enhancement gives an 8.35% bonus, an even-level Dual Origin Enhancement gives me a 16.66% bonus, and an even-level Single Origin Enhancement gives a 33.33% bonus. All of the examples above assume using Schedule A Enhancements, since these are the most common.

Schedule B Enhancements are things Defense Buff, Damage Resistance, Range Increase and To Hit Buff. These have a smaller bonus because a small shift in these values has a larger impact on gameplay. With these Enhancements a Training Origin Enhancement gives a 5% bonus, a Dual Origin Enhancement gives a 10% bonus, and a Single Origin Enhancement gives a 20% bonus. Enhancement Diversification for these bonuses kicks in at 40% with a severe drop at 60%.

What Enhancement Types are what bonuses (schedules)?
Schedule A Enhancements (33.33%, 16.66%, 8.35%) are:
Accuracy, Confuse, Damage, Defense DeBuff, Drain Endurance, Endurance Discount, Fear, Fly, Heal, Hold, Immobilize, Intangible, Jump, Recharge, Recovery, Run, Sleep, Snare, Stun, Taunt, To Hit Debuff
These bonus types start to see reduction when the bonus is 70% or more, and a severe reduction at 100% bonus or greater.

Schedule B Enhancements (20%, 10%, 5%) are:
Range, Defense Buff, Resist Damage, To Hit Buff
These bonus types start to see reduction when the bonus is 40% or more, and a severe reduction at 60% bonus or greater.

Schedule C Enhancements (40%, 20%, 10%) are:
Interrupt
This bonus type starts to see reduction when the bonus is 80% or more, and a severe reduction at 120% bonus or greater.

Schedule D Enhancements (60%, 30%, 15%) are:
Knockback
This bonus type starts to see reduction when the bonus is 120% or more, and a severe reduction at 180% bonus or greater

Also - There will be a 12% reduction in endurance cost for ALL powers and a reduction in the debt cap by 50% due to this system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Positron Endurance Discount
[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman-RE:Enhancement Diversification
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn’t you do it at I5?

First, there were some tech issues. Secondly, because I wanted to test the changes individually (i.e. powers and Enhancements)…I5 on the Training Room provided numerous insights on powers alone!

You’ve destroyed my character!

Everyone is entitled to their opinions; I can’t deny that. But please wait till you play with Enhancement Diversification before passing final judgment. I think you’ll find that slotting previously underused Enhancements, such as Endurance Reduction and Recharge Time, really makes a difference.

You’re doing this only after we’ve pre-ordered CoV.

If we were that Machiavellian, we would have waited until after CoV was out for a few weeks. I wanted to put this change in before hand so that everyone knew the system well before CoV came out.

Our opinions don’t matter.

Demonstrably not true. Feedback from players resulted in many changes to the initial launch of I5 – Dark Armor Endurance Reduction, lifting AOE limits for certain powers, making Controller pets permanent, buffing Ice Tankers, increasing Hold durations, increasing Instant Healing duration…etc. The forums are a vital place for us to get player input. Data and personal anecdotes only go so far!

Once we get this up on the Training Room server, we’ll be able to start looking at modifications to the system.

I’m sick of all these nerfs.

The goal with I5 was to address the base abilities of powers. But as many pointed out on these boards, Enhancements were also a significant problem. In fact, many people suggested on the boards and in PM’s that we look into some form of diminishing return.

I already said that I didn’t want powers touched any more in a large way after I5. Same is true with Enhancement Diversification; I think we have finished the large scale changes to bring the game into the right borders.

Does this mean no more changes? I’d like to promise you that there won’t be ANY changes in I7 that are “nerfs” and that any change is a “buff”, but that’s unrealistic given that there might be bugs, errors, etc. It simply wouldn’t be honest. BUT I do promise that I don’t foresee any more big swings on how things are done. And I hope that the powers list for I6 has very, very few power patch notes. And I7, and I8, etc.

The least they could have done is given us some sort of carrot with this.

Couple of things didn’t get posted. We’re cutting Endurance costs by 12% across the board (to ameliorate the effect that Enhancement Diversification has on Stamina). We’re also cutting the Debt cap in 1/2 . Yep. In half.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman-RE:Enhancement Diversification
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Scrappers and especially Tankers will be hurting badly, and that's after their defenses already took a severe hit. There was already talk wondering if Tankers were useful. Are they going to be tenable at all with these changes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Our playtests have shown that they fare just fine. But hey - that's what the Training Room is for!

[ QUOTE ]
What benefit does this bring to my play experience?

[/ QUOTE ]

We feel that the game ends up being more fun - players will learn the benefits of other types of Enhancements.


[ QUOTE ]
OK, so it seems obvious that respecs will be a part of this update.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely.

[ QUOTE ]
what does the debt cap have to do with these changes?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, nothing. Players have long complained about "perma-debt" and thus I thought I'd add this in.

[ QUOTE ]
It was very misleading to tell people that the I5 changes were then end of the powers changes, using wording to open the loophole for changing enhancements. Is there no one at Cryptic that suggested that was the case? I would have at least mentioned it in the hallway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, pohsyb said that very thing to me - in the hallway! That's my bad if it's misleading - my intent was to tell people that their powers themselves won't change anymore. In my mind, Enhancements were a different category.

[ QUOTE ]
In general, Cryptic does not explain the thought process behind a change - they reiterate the perceived need for the change. We the playerbase are shooting in the dark as to what your thinking was when you made a change, and as a result, cannot really craft a targetted response to the core rationale. Because a lot of the "tweaks" you describe weren't actually asked for by the majority of people giving feedback, its hard to say the change was driven by feedback.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes changes are driven by a few people, sometimes by a lot (Dark Armor, Ice Tanker...). Not really sure how to tell people one way or the other - though I'm willing to here suggestions!

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman-RE:Enhancement Diversification
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Day_Dreamer
But how do you plan to deal with single-enhancement powers and powers that naturally gravitate towards a specific sort of enhancement -- like all resistance and defense powers, especially passives?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the moment, those particular builds have an advantage in that they can use those extra slots on something else. We'll be looking at the Training Room and the forums for feedback and suggestions.



[ QUOTE ]
Silas_Dark
If you look at the Enhancements that exist in City of Heroes, there are far too many of them that are of very limited usefulness (or not useful at all).
Others, which in theory would be potentially interesting or add some variation to a power (ie. Disorient Duration or Knockback) simply don't have enough of an effect (or the right kind of effect) to be worth slotting. the game itself encourages people to use the same 10 Enhancements (the "Power 10") more than any other, simply because they're the ones that are the most readily available.

[/ QUOTE ]

ALL Enhancements are available through Contacts...are you suggesting putting them in the store? The only reason why we didn't, originally, was to prevent the nightmare of scrolling through hundreds of Enhancements...

[ QUOTE ]
CatMan
Will powers that have a long recharge be compensated?

[/ QUOTE ]

In these cases, I think most players will slot several Recharge Enhancements to compensate for anything lost by Hasten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman RE: Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them
[ QUOTE ]
I apologize if people thought I was misleading them by saying "no more big power changes." In my mind, powers and Enhancements are two different systems (they really are in terms of data). It certainly wasn't my intent.

Secondly, we didn't put out info about Enhancement Diversification out earlier because 1) we hadn't nailed down the exact system and 2) we didn't want to announce changes until they were on the Training Room. Until something can be tested, it isn't "real" yet - I'd hate to say something is coming when it isn't. Skills is a good example of this; we designed it. It seemed ready, but it ended up not being ready.

Thirdly, I CAN say unequivocally that we have NO other major changes planned. A few posts have asked that specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman RE: Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Positron stated I4 AND I5 changes were balanced with ED in mind. You just stated the system for ED hadn't been nailed until recently (and it STILL isn't in the training room).

What gives? How can there be balance when the system wasn't finalized?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, we did do internal testing with simulated ED results - but we didn't have the UI and final numbers. I learned after Skills never, never, never mention a system until it's really "in" the pipeline. We hope to get ED up on Training Room later this week.

And to those who think I'm couching my apologies a little too much - I'll be straightforward. I'm sorry. I should have tried to understand how things would be perceived. That's an oversight/error on my part. I thought Enhancements and Powers were two different things, but many players don't see it as such. While I may have been *technically* correct, clearly players thought I was expressing a different spirit: no more nerfs. I should have known that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman RE: Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Statesman, as an aside: when you say "NO other major changes planned" does that apply only to players or to both players and NPCs? In my mind tweaking villain damage/resist/defence/etc would be major in light of the changes that have been made Issue 5 and forshadowed in ED for Issue 6 (assuming I6 is part of CoV's release).


[/ QUOTE ]

No plans to make villains harder or easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman RE: Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Notice how he said "villians" and not NPCs? I love how they drop a bomb on us and then only respond with 1 or 2 lined posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um. We're not changing the NPC's either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman - Re: Please tell us the real Reason for ED
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1) For almost a year, Statesman has though the level 30+ game was imbalanced. He thought it was too easy. Offensive heroes caused so much damage and defensive heroes were so tough that there was no need for buffs or debuffs. Pure offense (blasters and scrappers) and pure defense (tankers), with perhaps an empath as a safety net, were enough to dominate the end game.

2) Statesman has always been happy with the low to mid game (levels 1-25). He felt they were properly balanced and challenging.

3) the difference between the low/mid game and the high end game is the proliferation of Single Origin enhancers and the dramatic effect they have on powers once they are 6 slotted.

4) solution: insert a soft-cap on enhancer-based power-magnitude, thus causing heroes suffer more damage, and cause less damage. This makes buff/debuff powers more valuable and leaves room for the vaunted skill system with room to provide a tangible, measurable benefit.

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Let's add a few more...

3.1) Players focused on just a few types of Enhancements alone; the usefulness of secondary effects was overlooked.

3.2) We wanted to be able to vary the % of Enhancements moving into the future. With ED, we now can have a single Enhancement that boosts Damage by 50%. Players can't horde many, many copies of said Enhancement, because there is still an ultimate cap.

3.3) We wanted to curtail the constant powers analysis more; we wanted to set a balance standard and move towards it.

And that's the reason(s).

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Statesman - Re: Something else States said about I5...
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As I've already said, there's little use calculating ED into ANYTHING until it goes to the Training Room. It could have easily ended up on the scrap heap (see Skills). Until something is on the Training Room, I don't like avoiding it (Skills being the classic example).

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Statesman - Re: Apologies and amends.
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Statesman, how do you reconcile this with these two points?

* ED, as currently implemented, will slow down levelling from I5 speeds - damage cut by 1/3 will slow killing speeds, while most defenses also cut by 1/3 will increase downtime.

* As of I5, you said that you were happy with the then-current levelling speeds - to the point where you buffed villain XP to compensate for the I5 changes.

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Fair enough...You've got some pretty big assumptions here - namely that you'll be gaining XP at a much slower rate. It hasn't been my experience at all internally; but we'll keep an eye on it.

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Statesman - Re: Please tell us the real Reason for ED
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a single enhancement worth 50%?????
whats the point that means that if we can get on we can only have 1 before ED takes effect. there are not that many options to put in the powers


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Some powers have few Enhancement choices - that's true. But many don't. In those cases, one could s

Let's take "Charged Bolts" for example. It has the following Enhancements permissable:

Accuracy Boost
Damage Boost
Endurance Discount Boost
Range Boost
Endurance Drain Boost
Recharge Boost

It's unlikely right now that someone would spend a single slot on each of these aspects...even with ED. But with some high level Enhancements - it's possible. A high Damage Enhancement frees up slots to boost something else.

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Statesman - Re: Please tell us the real Reason for ED
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You are not going to be able to ever curtail power analysis. Powergamers enjoy powergaming, and they WILL analyze the powers you put into the game. The harder you make it for them, the less accesable you make the game to non-powergamers. I do not think that trade is worth it.

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Oops. My bad - I meant OUR powers analysis - constantly tweaking individual powers without any overarching goal.

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Statesman - Re: Lies and the lying liars that tell them
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Jeesh...you're not kidding! Reading posts like these make me surprised he bothers to post here at all!

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Honestly, most devs don't post on their forums. There's various reasons why - but I've never subscribed to them (probably because I'm not from the game industry, really).

Here's what I keep in mind:

1) Players are paying customers.
2) They are entitled to their opinions.
3) It's easy to fly off the handle when you care.
4) Players who care isn't really a bad thing.
5) It's easy to type things in anger or haste.

I've met many posters at conventions who've written some vitriolic, personal attacks. Inevitably, they're patient, kind and intelligent. They really don't mean these things personally, because they don't know me personally. It's just that they felt strongly on an issue and posted quite passionately.

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http://Statesman - Re: Lies and the ...that tell them
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If anyone from Cryptic is reading this, clarity would be good. Is the intent to have it go live on CoH when CoV goes live?

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Never. ED is scheduled to go to the Training Room within a week (if not much sooner). We were going to do the announcement then...

In an ideal world, we'd have timed the CoV and CoH patches at the same time (unfortunately, this was impossible)...but as soon as people started posting info about it on the CoH forum, it made sense to announce it before it was on the Training Room.

Several people have noted that ED will "inevitably" cause a slowdown in leveling. That's why we're putting this up on test; internally, we didn't notice a change. There's a variety of reasons for this (less Endurance cost, slotting of different powers that reduced downtime, etc.), but I wanted to see the effect on the Training Room. I'm more than happy to increase XP should ED slow stuff down too much...

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Statesman - Re: A 2nd chance and a suggestion to the devs
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It's quite possible the reduction in endurance and the debt cap were supposed to be in the announcement. Positron's post on the CoV boards was looking for ways to refine the announcement. Since we've been told the endurance reduction is already built into CoV (not sure about the debt cap) he likely didn't feel the need to mention it there. He never got the chance to edit his post, because CuppaJo was forced into posting it, as is, on these boards.

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Yes, they were...the hurried nature of things kinda threw things out of whack.

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Statesman - Re: Anything in I6 besides ED, PVP , and Bases?
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To clarify:

Bases are NOT in I6. Bases are a CoV feature...

We'll be posting the features list for I6 "soon."

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Statesman - Re: Anything in I6 besides ED, PVP , and Bases?
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Are you saying only CoV owners can build bases?

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You cannot enter or build bases without CoV. You cannot participate in Base raids without CoV. CoH players will gain prestige and Salvage (I think) that they can contribute to the Super Group...

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Positron on CoV - Enhancement Diversification
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Blasts like fire that have no secondary effect that can be slotted,

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Damage, Endurance Reduction, Range, Accuracy, Recharge Rate, that's 5 different effects right there. 3 of which play directly into Damage Per Second (Damage, Accuracy, Recharge).

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Positron on CoV - RE: Post by Posi on CoH Boards
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My question is, if they had planned this END reduction and the halving of debt to go along with ED, why was it not patched with the ED? Seriously.

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CoH players will have it patched with ED.

CoV players have had the reduced endurance for... I think 2 weeks now (it was ready before ED was for CoV).

That's why the post was on the CoH boards.

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Enhancement Diversification Guide

What is Enhancement Diversification (ED)
ED is a system of diminishing returns for enhancements. If you slot too much of the same enhancement ability (Accuracy, Damage, Damage Resistance, Etc.) NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF ENHANCEMENTS YOU USE TO DO IT, you will receive less and less benefit.

Positron posted a detailed post about the how ED works, which can be found here. But as usual, the numbers are missing. Here are the actual numbers for Most (Schedule A) enhancers.

0%-70% Enhancement = 100% of the Enhancement Value
70-100% Enhancement = 85% of the Enhancement Value
100%-Infinity% Enhancement = 15% of the Enhancement Value.

Essentially this means that:
<ul type="square">[*]You can 6 slot Training Enhancers without losing any of your bonus to ED[*]You can 6 slot Double Origin Enhancers and lose so little bonus you won’t even notice it[*]If you 6 slot Single Origin Enhancers, you will receive only about half the bonus you are used to. It’s like losing 1/3 of the power you used to have for most enhancers (because you can only DOUBLE your base under ED instead of TRIPLING your base)[*]Anything over 3 SOs slotted in the same power is severely curtailed.[*]These scales are adjusted based on the enhancer type, so your 5/10/20 enhancers get beat down at 3 SOs just like your 8.3/16.7/33.3 ones[*]HOs are beat down, just like SOs[*]In short, there is no escape[/list]
Resources

Here’s some reliable information about ED for you to play with if you’re into that sort of thing. If you hate math, skip to the next section.

<ul type="square">[*]DarthMord’s Chart about ED[*]Here’s a chart of Schedule A under Enhancement Diversity, and how much of your precious power levels you retain.[*]The ED Formula for your happy little spreadsheet[/list]
Any Good News?

ED brings with it a 13.3% END Discount to all powers (and a decrease in the debt cap ). So, you might consider dropping the Fitness pool and freeing up three powers.

On non-toggle powers where you can slot Recharge, you can probably get pretty close to your previous DPS and DPE (or BUFF/HEAL/STATUS Per Second/End) by slotting 1 ACC, 3 DMG (or Effect), 1-2 RECH &amp; 0-1 END.

Bad News?

Hastened builds are pretty severely hurt.

Generally, movement powers are deeply weakened since they can't take much more than END and the movement enhancer.

Tanker and Scrapper DEF sets are significantly weakened.

Auto powers (Fitness, some armors) are not exempt from the ED rule, even though they only accept one kind of enhancer.

Why, Dear God, Why?

The devs feel they can get a better balanced game this way. I've posted (and will continue to post) everything they've said about ED in this thread.

ED truly will help them to make the game challenging for the min/maxxer while not leaving the casual player behind because the gap between the non-optimal and the optimal slotting of any power will be less. So ED is not a crazy idea at root.

But it does have its shortcomings, and the most exhaustive/constructive posting I've seen on those shortcomings can be found here.

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It all falls apart if BUFFs and INSPIRATIONs aren't ALSO subject to diminishing returns. Take your 2.1x guy, give him a nice Fulcrum Shift, and you STILL have to code those MOBs to be able to take 3x, 4x, even 5x burst damage.

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Actually I think it was somewhat the point to make buffs/inspirations that much more appealing..

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Clearly part of the motive, only it doesn't help them to balance the MOBs.

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Well, the thing about the Endurance discount is that it is basically an admission by the devs that Recharge Enhancement is inferior to Damage Enhancement. If you just replace Damage with Recharge one to one, you end up paying more in Endurance. So the discount is basically covering up the problem.

The thing about the 3 Damage, 1 Recharge, 1 Endurance example one poster gave is that it takes advantage of the fact that different types of Enhancement stack better than the same type. For more than one Recharge, that advantage goes down. So you are stuck with the choice of balancing Recharge with Endurance, trading two Enhancements for one, or accepting the higher End cost.

The folks like me, who like efficient builds, might actually be able to get something out of the greater leeway in slotting Endurance, as the costs will probably be balanced with extra Recharges in mind. But it neither solves the underlying problem of Damage increasing DPS and DPE, and Recharge and Endurance increasing only one of them, nor gives a huge advantage to people who want to slot for efficiency since everyone will basically be efficient.

I probably should have asked this earlier, but why can't Damage just increase your Endurance cost, like Recharge? Then the most damaging combination will still be 1 Acc 5 Dam, but the End costs will be so great that you'll be better off adding some End Enhancers instead. You can deal the greater damage, if you're willing to exhaust yourself in the first couple of shots.

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While that works in the microcosmic view of making the damage enhancer less appealing to people who pay attention to both DPS and DPE, it also keeps the distance between the minimum damage and maximum damage as large as it is today - so they have to continue to balance foes to be able to withstand the 3x bursts that 6 damage SOs can produce today instead of the 2.1x bursts that they produce under ED. Which will leave MOB balancing just as hard as it ever was.

Now, here's the ugly little truth about the statement I just made, which is, essentially, a defense of the devs vision...

It all falls apart if BUFFs and INSPIRATIONs aren't ALSO subject to diminishing returns. Take your 2.1x guy, give him a nice Fulcrum Shift, and you STILL have to code those MOBs to be able to take 3x, 4x, even 5x burst damage.

You may recall Statesman's most recent promise of no more major nerfs, the one he made AFTER ED was announced. I just don't see how it could be true without making the sacrifices we're making for ED useless. Either Buffs and Inspirations will get diminishing returns, too, or all of this pain is meaningless.

This happy though brought to you by Pilcrow.

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Just a passing observation. If a player has perma hasten pre-ED isn't his DPS with 5 - 6 damage possibly higher than a post-ED with 2 recharge and 3 damage?

Just a thought.

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Absolutely true, went over that in another thread and Hasten becomes redundant and a hair useless if you've slotted in 1-2 RECH per power. I'm sure the devs consider this a good thing and I'm not sure I blame them.

Hasten has become a long-timer fixer post-ED with minimal utility post SOs (previous, it's still a big DPS boost). And they did want it and stamina to be less appealing, so I'm sure they're giddy.

They should make the long timers shorter now, though. They were balanced for full SOs and perma-hasten.

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If Statesman is to be believed, the long timers were also balanced with ED in mind. So they're here to stay. Officially. For now.

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AAAAARGH! Say it ain't so.

Linky please.

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When the ED patch hits CoH, will there be a slide rule included?

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LOL.

This is SUCH a fair criticism of ED. The devs have shot for simplicity in so many things so you don't need to see numbers to play. And yet, ED is so complex that they finally put numbers in the interface.

ED is cruel to casual players, complex, confusing and penalizing to simplistic slotting.

Ironic given it was put in (in part) to normalize the min/maxxers with the casual players.

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and besides if you have enough attack powers, like scrappers and blasters should have, dps and dpe are null and void, because of the useage of powers allow the recharge by itself i know my blaster can dish out enough attacks for my sniper blast 2 or 3 times without stopping, except for endurance drain than snipe gives me as a resut of being hit before snipe goes off

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You still get to use your strongest attacks more often, which gives you better DPS. If you can take Ice Bolt out of your attack chain and still have a full attack chain, you've boosted your DPS up. And freed a power slot to get something else with.

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Just a passing observation. If a player has perma hasten pre-ED isn't his DPS with 5 - 6 damage possibly higher than a post-ED with 2 recharge and 3 damage?

Just a thought.

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Absolutely true, went over that in another thread and Hasten becomes redundant and a hair useless if you've slotted in 1-2 RECH per power. I'm sure the devs consider this a good thing and I'm not sure I blame them.

Hasten has become a long-timer fixer post-ED with minimal utility post SOs (previous, it's still a big DPS boost). And they did want it and stamina to be less appealing, so I'm sure they're giddy.

They should make the long timers shorter now, though. They were balanced for full SOs and perma-hasten.

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This is all fine and dandy but what about powers that only take 1 type of enhancement. Such as the majority of defensive powers and a big chunk of Invul's primaries. I can't slot end reducs into my passives so essentially I"m capped at 3 slot effectiveness or I can just keep em 6 slotted and only reap a little bonus. Blah. IJ

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Auto powers (like the ones you're referencing), get NO benefit from END discounts, obviously. But this isn't the ED (Enhancement Diversity) thead, this is the ED (Endurance Discount) thread. Your perfectly valid complaint is best discussed in the Enhancement Diversity thread.

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It seems to me that if you remove a third of a powers "umpf" (for instance 3 SO's from a damage power)...then take out a third of Stamina's endurance recovery ability...

...you're gonna have alot of tired heroes and the 13.3% discount isnt gonna make up for it.

I guess end cost is what the extra slots are for. Just doesnt sound very diverse to me.

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Actually, if you put END REDUX in those 2 or 3 slots, your DPE will be BETTER.

Let's say I have an attack today hat does 100 HP with a 2 second animation, 8 second recharge, and costing 10 END

Today I have it 6 slotted for DMG so I get 300 HP in 10 seconds for 10 end
OR
30 DPS and 30 DPE

Post ED it's going to do 210 HP in 10 seconds for 10*(1-.133) = 8.67 END
OR
21 DPS and 24.22 DPE

Post ED with 4 DMG, 2 END it's going to be 200 HP in 10 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.66) = 5.22 END
OR
20 DPS and 38.3 DPE

Post ED with 4 DMG, 1 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 200 HP in (2+8/(1+.33))=8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
25 DPS and 30 DPE

Post ED with 3 DMG, 2 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.66))=6.8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
28.6 DPS and 30 DPE

Almost no change IF properly slotted.

But, wait a minute, most people slot 1 ACC + 5 DMG how does that work out?

Today I have it 1 ACC + 5 DMG so I get 267 HP in 10 seconds for 10 end
OR
26.7 DPS and 26.7 DPE

Post ED with 3 DMG, 1 ACC, 1 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.33))=8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
25 DPS and 30 DPE &lt;--Better DPE than today, retaining 94% of my DPS

Post ED with 3 DMG, 1 ACC, 2 RECH it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.66))=6.8 seconds for 10*(1-.133) = 8.67 END
OR
28.6 DPS and 24.22 DPE &lt;--Better DPS than today, retaining 90% of my DPE

You can see where they think the levelling speed will remain the same and such under their new plan.

As you alluded to, the problem with thier plan is not that people will be cut in power by 1/3. It's that the only diversity you will see is people slotting in recharge and end redux, all the other enhancers will stay on the shelf collecting dust, just as they did before. People today have a choice to get the max DPS by NOT slotting 1+5, the best DPE by not slotting 1 + 5 and the best compromise between the two by slotting 1+5. What we have today is actually MORE diverse than the new plan.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

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With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

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This is a strange number. How did you come up with this particular figure?

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Because this is the diference between the endurance costs in CoH and CoV. They're simply just adjusting the endurance costs to line up with those in CoV.

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Is that a fact, or a theory? I haven't seen a thread comparing the same power's END cost in CoV vs. CoH, have you?

It's approximately the equivalent of an END REDUX DO in your power (about 1% shy of that).