PennyPA

Agreed, my ice/ice tank struggled way more soloing than my dark or kin defenders or even my cold/ice defender.

They need to improve tanks. (j/k )

EDIT: (no that some coffee has kicked in)

I wanted to add that if a player has soloing issues, the game provides tools to help. There are IOs and set bonuses you can plan for. And there are dual builds, where you could drop ally-only powers and slot up on attacks different or take different powers from the pools. Or you can choose a synergizing combination of power sets that get the most out of your powers. And look at all of the difficulty options we have now.
None of those are required, of course, but they are there and don't require changing to the entire AT because a player doesn't want to use them. If a player is really having issues soloing, then there are better ways to solo. The game can't be build around one AT, otherwise it will get boring real fast. Plus, every AT can solo, just differently between ATs and power sets.

Okay, the current inherent is working AS INTENDED, in my opinion. To clear that up no one is defending it. If you can provide numbers that when the team is struggling and you END management changes, you proved me wrong.

When some thing is already balanced for the game, there needs to be some justification for a change. The devs have a lot to manage and plan for in future content. If they keep bumping up ATs "just because", then it gets harder to make that new content because all the toons get stronger - hence, why I think any buff would be balanced by something else. I don't want to see a nerf just so I can get some END management options back because I already figured out how to manage my END.

Back to min/maxing, I agree that it is not bad or wrong either. However, when statements are made around the topic that other ATs will be better and that defenders will not be able to compete, that is where the issue is for me. I see that you are taking one side and applying it to how the game will be played and that teams will be min/max teams post GR. It is comments like this:
that get irritating.

Play however you want if you are having fun. If you are min/maxer, more power to you (no pun ). When I set up teams, I only require you play. I never ask AT, powerset, look at IO bonuses, or whatever.

Defenders are good at teaming. Their balance is their ability to solo as well as the other ATs. They make others greater at the cost of soloing - get it? Take a blaster, great all around wouldn't you say. Now mix in a duo as with a defender, and watch what happens.

Can defenders solo? Of course, but there are differences. My D3 def solos far better than my emp/psi def. I don't have one, but I hear rad/son def are very nasty too. But regardless of defender, are they as efficient as the other ATs in soloing? Some maybe, most are not in my experience as a defender.

Let's look at tanks. My ice/ice tank was hard to solo because of the damage output. Would I have had a different experience as a ice/EM tank? Or a fire/ tank? They solo differently. Btw, do you hear teams, after they have a tank, broadcasting in whatever channel, we need more tanks?

Scrappers - just what do they offer teams that blasters can't do better? If you are teamed with defenders that keep the blaster blasting, why bother with a scrapper at all? Blasters have better damage and, more importantly, better AOEs. Same question above, do teams actually ask for more scrappers?

Khelds, um, and they offer again what to a team that every other AT can do better? So don't bother asking for more khelds, let alone inviting khelds to teams in your world.

Controllers do have better damage mitigation. But how about those controllers pre-32 and their not-so-awesome soloing without pets? Balance...

I like to know what information you possess to let you see the future after GR and defenders don't exist anymore. I still plan on making them, team with them, and have fun playing.

I am not so sure any more if this is about min/maxing either.

Wait, what??? EVERY SINGLE AT CAN SOLO. Do you have proof defenders can't solo? I can log any of my defenders on right now and solo missions, so I have no idea what you are saying here.

Plus, let's add something I saw before:
Sound familiar? Defenders are a team based AT but they can absolutely, most definitely solo nowhere near "failure" as you imply. Can they solo as well as my scrappers? No. But maybe I should talk about my MM's which solos all the time, even AVs or at +4/8 settings. None of my other red side ATs can match my MMs, so therefore, using your logic, all the ATs redside except MMs need a buff or MMs need to be nerfed.

No idea where you are going on this. This is the "sky is falling" arguement again that defenders will be the dinosaurs after GR. People will play what they want.

Again, not sure what you are debating here.

And from what I have read/heard from the devs, this AT is already pretty darn balanced, and can perform solo or in teams. They already have an advantage, their defenders.

Blasters and stalkers were not nerfed because they were considered UNDERPERFORMING. Why would you nerf something that is already lower than the rest?
For doms, they were balanced by the extra damage they received in their attacks so they didn't have to be perma-doms all the time.

Then what is the problem? If things are going well as you say, are you not having fun? Relaxing while playing? Chatting it up with friends? Completing whatever you are doing?

If things are not going well, then why is it a problem with the inherent for the teams bad performance - pulling too much aggro, players afk, etc. Bad teams/PUGs (and we have all been there) have problems any inherent can't fix.

I have come across teams that things like damage is all that matters. I was on a 43 min MoSTF (yes, before the exploit) where we had 3 defenders. Would we have gone faster with more damage? How much - 1 min? 2 min? Does it really make any difference whatsoever if you complete a 2 hr LGTF or a 1.9 hr LGTF? Was it a grind or fun?

As mentioned earlier, the inherent of an AT never crosses my mind for any AT I make. I just play for fun, so no problem in my view.

Sigh, well, had a reply started. But not in the mood for your ranting again as a reply.

I feel the holes are fine as designed and that they don't need to be covered in the sets themselves. The game is flexible enough to allow you to get the coverage you want to fill in these holes.

Just burrowing these two points, but a different point of view for me is that we don't know what is coming up, say like in GR.

The above items still give room for the devs to try new mobs, attacks, etc. to put in the game and exploit. You could ask the question "what is the GR bosses all have toxic damage?" It would be nice to have something to counter it.

Not a perfect response, but IMO, if the differences didn't exist, it would be harder to make newer/different content and challenges for players and teams.

I think it comes down to perception only. Corruptors have scourge, thus more damage. On the teams I have experienced, damage>the difference between defender and corruptor in de/buffing. These numbers are crunched all the time. You know DPS. You know the percent de/buffing. So, a team that believes damage "is king" will take a corruptor to shave off those few moments more for maximum efficiency.

I don't think anything will happen in GR. I see people play ATs and powerset combos that they want to play. They are not perfect or the best, but they are happy.

Agreed!

Talionis,

I believe in the "if it ain't broken, don't fix it." saying. You may say it is broken, I don't see it as broken. That is our opinions and up to the devs, with their data, to say it is broken. If it is determined to be broken, then fix it and I would be happy. If it is shown that defenders are performing at or in excess of expections for the game, then why change?

As for the GR, that is your speculation. IMO only, I consider that to be the comment of a min/maxer. I am not implying you personally are a min/maxer, but I have been around enough to know teams that only care to work at 100% peak performance would take a corruptor over defender. If I am on or not on those teams, there are plenty of other teams. I am opposite on you in this in that people will play what they want, for no reason or any reason.

Lastly, I view defenders as overpowered. Maybe that is why we have the inherent we have, to balance us to the other ATs. I appreciate I could have a minority, if not unique , point of view.

Maybe I am missing the point that some defender primaries have ways to restore/recover END as well in the epics. So, if END is an issue, the game gives ways to compensate.

I didn't miss any point. Again, you can change slotting. If too much, change it around. Too little, change it back. I am also curious if I missed the boat on slotting end red in all my defender powers, too. I don't have the slots to do so. We would get benefits from vigilance then.

Never said not to discuss. Discussion is great. It is good to hear from other points of view. And maybe clarifying my position somewhat is also good.

And I think this is what our difference is. For me, I don't slot any AT I have based on its inherent power. For defenders, an inherent power based on teaming for an AT designed for teaming is common sense to me at least. If a player wants to solo, there are some defenders that can solo better than other defenders. But even then, there are ATs that are designed to solo much more efficiently than defenders.

So I can't see where there is an issue. If a player really has END problems, that player can look at a different way - like an IO unique or set bonus or 2 SO end red instead of one - and work back to a level where END use fits their playstyle.

And to clarify since it may not be clear, from my experience on the forums and reading why the devs make changes, I can't see how a buff to this AT will not be balanced with something else, especially without any data to show they are underperforming.

Oh, so it is the defender messing up. Not another playing pulling too much aggro, or a player AFK, the team is split up, etc. That's messed up.

Defenders don't have to be "failing" for vigilance to work like you have stated in your posts.

Then don't account for it. Pretty simple. It is pretty amazing a controller would say "you know, I have containment, so I won't slot damage in an attack." Or a scrapper saying "well, since I will crit every so often, I will only put one or two damange enhancements."

You have an END issue, slot end red or use other ways (aka IOs/sets) to decrease END use/increase END recovery. If any thing else, you have DUAL builds now. You want to depend on vigilance for teaming and END use - build 1. Team breaks up and you want to solo for a while - build 2 with more END red.

Because the devs are limited to what works within the content of game. It has nothing to do with civilization changes like a light bulb. They make a change that goes too far and player will scream and shout when they nerf. They go too little and players will scream and shout that the devs didn't do it right.

If the devs feel the AT fits just right where they expect it within the game, then why change? What hole or issue are they fixing? Soloing...for an AT that shines in teams?

Can defenders solo? Most definitely.

But, my emp def does not solo as fast as my 2 scrappers. So if I want a fast soloing toon, I would make a scrapper. Why does a defender have to solo the same as all the other ATs? The other ATs, like a tanker or controller early on, don't solo as fast, but they can.

From my reading of the devs when they make changes, they have not routinely gave free buffs to ATs without a balance. To me, the dom changes are the best example. Changes in the blaster and stalker ATs were a performance issue. And this is why they need to prove it. Otherwise, IMO, the devs will balance any buff they give to defenders with something we may not want.

Having a End discount when the team is in trouble and I can help lets me do my job.

As for GR, I don't believe the sky is falling on defenders. People will play what they want.

Please, please, please no more click powers. We click enough already.

And how will this be balanced without evidence defenders are underperforming? A free BF, full end, and CP in one click without any negatives?

Last time I check, it does...may be not as often as you want.

Do you slot differently for the scrapper inherent? What about corruptors, like skipping damage because you know scourge will kick in? Should I respect my MM's and the pet slotting because the MM inherent? I means it gives +25% Damage and +10% ToHit to my pets so why bother with dam or acc enhancements.

I don't have an issue with vigilance, but this is how I feel ever single these threads pop up. I have yet to see any one show that defenders underperforming.

You can make some combinations that synergize greatly or some that make soloing harder. But in the end, they ALL can solo.

I don't know why soloing ever comes into this either. Defenders are great in teams. That is there balance for the soloing.

The OP even states defenders aren't made for soloing. I can't see how adding an end red to slotting or use IO's and frankenslot end red with something else in a mixed IO is overkill. That is news to me.

Add in the fact like my emp def has a power with end recovery, so does my kin, my cold gets end back, as does my D3 from the epic pool. Rad gets AM for some recovery too. Managing END is part of the game.

Just tossing my 2 inf in, but that is similar to my thoughts too. For my fire/rad corr, I took the snipe because it is in my top 3 animations for the game (Spin and P/RotP the other two). I know it isn't the best way to open for my /rad, but I can't help myself sometimes.