Peacemoon

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[QR] (not an attack on any poster)

Nerfing controllers won't change how much damage your defender does. It won't change how many blasts you need to use to drop a +2 LT. It won't help what you see as a problem with defenders at all. Seems like what people are calling a defender problem is really AT envy.

I know how it goes; I used to hate controllers for their ability to buff/debuff almost as well as my defender. I was worried that controllers would get all the teams. When containment was announced, I panicked and made all kinds of now-embarrassing posts about how this was the final nail in the coffin of defenders. Thank god for forums purges.

Then I got back to playing the game.

Never once been turned down for a team because "controllers are better." Never once had a problem with killing things. Turns out these problems were all in my head, and exacerbated by bandwagonning forum superstars. The only real problem that I think defenders have is their absolute garbage inherent, and to be honest, my defender does just fine in spite of that. As another poster above me said, controllers are (in my opinion) a terrible bore to play, and that alone is enough to keep me blasting away with my defenders. Yes, they do less damage than some ATs. No, they don't do too little damage, which is an important distinction to make.

Also, if you think defender damage isn't up to par, you are not playing around with enough -res

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I agree that I don't want to turn this thread into a Defender vs Controller debate, however some comparison is needed in order to show that Defenders do need a boost. My main is a Controller so I am arguing against myself really, but I feel the cause is just.

I have to say, and this is to everyone who has suggested it so far, the notion that Defenders should be left alone because Rad/Sonic Defenders would be overpowered is... *ludicrous*.

I am not arguing they will be more powerful but, every AT has a set combination which is more powerful then the others. This is true for everyone. Even if Defenders did 10% of their current damage, Rad/Sonic would still be considered a powerful Defender set combination in relation to other Defender sets.

It is like arguing against Controller-wide buffs purely because of Fire/Kin builds - whislt ignoring the plight of all other sets.

It is well known that /Sonic is quite a decent set because of stacking -res, we shouldn't penalize all other Defenders though just because it is performing far above the rest.

If I could make changes to the game I would
A) Change containment so instead of a dual-strike it was more of a +100% damage buff which is effected by damage caps. Doing this would mean it would not play outside of the rules. I would also specifically state that Controllers ability to "overpower" is part of their inherent as well and not just another freebie.
B) Change the Defender inherent to work while solo and also increase their damage. Doing this would hopefully give defenders a fun mechanic in order to cleverly make use of both their secondary and primary for mutual use. Perhaps a system like blasters inherent, whenever you use a primary power you increase your damage, whenever you use a secondary power you increase your buff effectiveness.
C) Increase Defender damage overall so that they can really contribute to a teams performance - even if it means reducing Sonics effectiveness a little.

I might actually run some tests comparing my Mind/Storm's damage, to my Empath/Psi's damage. Although I already know that my even if I slot both for damage with their nukes, my Controller, even without a pet, will do more damage and have less risk of dying due to better AoE control.

The most annoying teams I find myself on, always have someone who tries to take complete charge and does not allow anyone to do anything.

E.g even though we had 6 controllers and were doing missions fine, when the tanker (who had been shopping) eventually decided to showup on mission 4 of the TF, we all had to go into mindless drones.

"Don't attack until the tank goes in."
"I'm herding don't attack until I say"
"I told you not to attack, do you know what herding is?!"

This slowed down the whole team so much that it became boring. Any attempt to engage mobs before the tank meant the tank would deliberately engage a different group. Even though we didn't need her though.

I just found the whole thing so annoying, another controller was verbally abused for using force bubble to push mobs into a pack "Let the tank taunt!" they cried.

Finally, the "herding" was done one group at a time. Is that even herding or just wasting time?

Needless to say I regretted joining. However this is something that strikes me with girl gamers, they form an opinion and a way of doing something and no matter what you say they will never listen.

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The underlying assumption of the thread is that Defenders have a problem that needs addressing.

I question that assumption.

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Feel free to, but when you consider the effectiveness of Blaster vs Defender nukes, and compare it to the effectiveness of Defender buffs/debuffs vs Controller buffs/debuffs, I think Defenders have the right to compain.

The truth is their blasts are held back under the assumption they would be overpowered if they did damage close to blasters, yet at the same time controllers are throwing around their primary at almost the same effectiveness.

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- You must realize that a defender (more then any other AT) really shines in group play. In essence, a defender that's actually defending people is well...a defender. The powersets alone often scream 'team-player' (i.e. - empathy, force-field), but that is not entirely the case.
- After making a few defenders...some bad, some just plain blah yet others not knowing how I managed to get past 20th there are a few powerset combinations that really shine - SOLO. One particular set combination was Kinetics/Energy Blast. This combination, so far, has been fun...almost to the point of being helarious.
- With the recovery, regen, kb almost perpetual nonstop buildup...this powerset turns into a literal wrecking ball even after just one application of siphon power. Once you have siphon power stacked (or even better, fulcrum shift)...you won't have much by way of defense, but you won't have many enemies opposing you either - you just blasted them to kingdom come!
- Give a Kin/EB Defender a try...you might be pleased to have a defender deal out that much carnage!

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-I realise some powersets are better suited to teamplay, however it is a very big shame empathy and force fields were designed that way, with no synergy with their nukes at all. Perhaps this is where a better inherent could apply.
-I had a Kin/Ener Defender a longtime ago, and a Storm/Dark, FF/Arch and Emp/Psi. However once my Defenders get into their 20's, they seem to drop in effectiveness when solo by a lot. My Emp/Psi is lvl 41, but he rode on the back of teams and never attempted to solo.

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So the -ToHit of Dark Blast, that can easily stack into the 28% range doesn't bring anything?

The -Recharge & Slow Effect in Ice Blast doesn't reduce incoming damage, and allow for more breathing room when facing a harder hitting enemy?

Psychic Blast may not have the slow, but it's got more -Recharge, so I guess that must be pretty useless too.

And the -Defense in Radiation Blast, well, I know that I hate inducing a cascade defense failure in my enemies, making them easier to hit for the whole team.

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Well of course they do help, but they still have minimal impact. It isn't like tankers inherent which applies the taunt to entire group everytime they attack. So while they can be useful, the bigger the team gets, the less impact it will have. The -resist, -acc and -recharge are perhaps the best ones. Rad's -def is largely redundent at high level when everyone has good accuarcy anyway.

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I think the real issue is that controllers need serious nerfage. It has been "City of Controllers" for at least 3 years now, maybe longer. They need containment scrapped and changed to a buff that respects normal +damage limits and their buff/debuff modifier changed to .60.

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Unfortunately I do kind of agree with this, containment is pretty overpowered as it is. It isn't a +100% damage buff, it is much more then that. It basically makes every attack a dual strike, something which operates outside of normal damage rules.

If you take a new controller and slot their single target attacks for pure damage, you will find a low level controller can solo very very well. The only drawback is the higher end costs.

I don't mean to stir a big debate, but the way I see it Defenders are overshadowed in everything they do. They perform best at low levels where they have the advantage of getting their powers earlier, but I rarely see any Defenders now at 35+. However when Controllers reach their prime in 40+, Defenders often struggle to solo even cons, is it any wonder that team support usually comes in the form of a Controller not Defender at later levels?

Perhaps the only reason Defenders are more valuable early on is that they get their powers sooner. Once controllers catchup, they become redundent.

Or better yet, why is the difference between Controller Fulcrum Shift and Defender Fulcrum Shift so small, yet the difference between Blaster Power Burst and Defender Power Burst is so big?

I'm just saying using the psychic EPP with controller powers to prove that defenders can solo on invinc, is really only underlining the fact controllers do it so much better.

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Do we need to pull out Psyonico's video of his Empath solo-ing invincible Carnie mobs with ease?

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The irony here is that he used Mass Hypnosis and Domination to make it possible, both Controller powers which are usually unavailable to Defenders unless 40+ and chosen the psychic EPP.

I agree to some extent, the abilities of Defenders and Controllers vary much more significantly based on powerset then other archtypes, mainly because they all play so differently so you end up with subsets of archtypes. However the key issue for me is that for Defenders, improving the baseline performance will help the weaker sets but wouldn't overpower the already good sets, not in my opinion anyway. They just aren't powerful enough.

As for secondary effects, I believe Sonics -Res is really the only effect that has a huge impact. The others have a minimal effect on a teams performance.

You are right though, there is nothing the devs can do to balance Defenders wich each other, but definitly for weaker Defender sets for soloing such as Empathy of FF, it is a shame that they are better off in the hands of controllers because of the weak damage, which in effect they are exchanging a control set for.

While the title is obviously going to spark many one-liner replies, please hear me out.

Defenders currently have a secondary devoted completely to damaging yet it is my opinion that they fall behind both Tankers and Controllers in terms of damage. (Unless you compare the best damage of defenders, say Dark/Sonic with the worst of controllers, say Earth/Empathy)

Personally I view this as a gross imbalance of the game, Defenders should have much more power and ability in soloing. They are still heroes afterall! They should not be treated like the clerics or priests of the game by people who know no better - if anything that title is more fitting of controllers anyway.

It is just a big shame that Defenders start with a good ability to solo and it just goes down hill rapidly from there. By the time they hit level 20 and their real numbers, their abilities to solo have diminished by a large amount.

I realise Defender damage has been buffed a long time ago once before, and their attacks reduced in cost as well but I think it is time for another look. Reading the changes to Dominators, I would not be asking for a huge overhaul like that as I realise the amount of Dev time needed. However, it is also a good time to perhaps ask a similar look is given to Defenders as well?

Which leaves me thinking about a simple way of improving Defenders, apart from an across the board increase in damage, a simple way in which Defenders could be improved is through their inherent ability - an abiity which many will agree is among the worst of any archtype. Now, that alone is not a good reason for it to be changed however consider the following:

- The ability has zero use outside of a team, an area which defenders could actually use more help with.

- For many powersets, the ability is counter productive. As a forcefield defender who's job it is to *prevent* damage, ideally hardly anyone will get hurt and the ability wont be in effect.

- The ability largely depends on the abilities of your team mates and their sets. If you team with a good tank or controller, again it will have minimal use.

When you compare Viligance to something like Containment, an inherent which gives controllers very respectful damage early on if they slot accordingly (My Mind Controller breezed through the early levels) and becomes even more poweruful with double damage EPP AoE's.

Overall I think Defenders need a boost in damage because they are lacking and when they have a secondary devoted to damage, the benefits seem lost when Controllers, who have no damage powerset and are blessed with Controls, Buffs/Debuffs and pets and more damage.

My suggestion to the devs that a quick and simple way of making a change to Defenders would be to target their inherent, Viligance, which is currently underpeforming. If changed to something that would really boost Defenders and make them feel more Heroic, its ramificaitons would be across all powersets and be a universal buff of goodness.

Thanks for reading

Defender damage is justified when you compare it to blasters and scrappers in isolation.

When you compare it to Controller damage, even pre-EPP with containment, you start to really wonder why you bother. Why be Rad/Anything when you could be XX/Rad as a controller?

This is partly because of low damage blasters, it should be more corrupter level if anything. It is also because Defenders inherent is obscenely bad.

Just because a failing MMO uses lifetime subscription in an attempt to stop people from leaving the game doesn't mean CoH should follow suit. Why would a company offer a lifetime sub if it was doing well?

Again, LOTRO are probably doing it because the majority of players do not keep playing after a year subscribed, so this would actually make them more money then if you played for 3 months and quit.

Good read

I would make a long post about the benefits of a mind/storm controller, but it doesn't seem to be in your shortlist :-)

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I suspect it was raised to bring it on par with Mind Control's Levitate power. Levitate had been doing more damage than Lift since its inception. This should even out the powers, which is good considering their pretty much clones of one another.

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Lift was nerfed near the start of the game for fear Grav Controllers would do too much damage with propel. The power hasn't been looked at since but I have always agreed that Grav lift should do equal damage.

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One problem I've been seeing with the progression of things since around I13 (PvP revamp and merits, specifically) is that we are moving closer and closer to normalization and standardization wherever it's possible. It seems like a good idea on the surface but it also means that the unique aspects of certain powers or ATs are being stripped in the name of making everything the same. As someone once said, "once everyone is super, no one will be super."

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QFT

Yay! Dommies are now Blasters with pets!
*waves little flag weakly*

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Psychic Shockwave was a 25' area effect power that did single target damage instead of Area damage. That *was* a bug that we allowed to stand until this point, since [u]we were not happy with Dominator Performance[u] as a whole. Now that we have the wherewithal to make the scale of changes seen here, it was time to fix that particular issue.

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I was happy.
Now I am not.
I give you Devs another big, fat "thank you for nothing"!

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Well I would like to cancel out your "I am not happy" with my "I am happy"

The changes look good and will make playing as Dominator interesting. People seem to be forgetting that Domination damage is now always up, for anyone who didn't have perma Dom, this will be a huge increase in damage and fun.

People need to look at the game as a whole and not just either level 50 farming or AV fights. These changes are great and the Castle is wise.

The question in my mind is this,

How does the damage of Dominators compare to the damage of Defenders and Corrupters?

Some dev response to this issue would be much appreciated, just so we know it will be looked at.

As a mind/storm I always have something to lockdown a group, how much control is too much control?

Also as Mind/Storm you get thunderclap in addition to all the other goodies. If you open with mass hypnosis you can safely wander into most small group spawns and take out all the minions, and in big group spawns just follow the tank into the middle. You can supplement this with fear, total dom, mass confusion also and pile on some bad weather to really make it a bad day for the mobs ;-)

Personally I go for 2 recharges and the Achilles heel proc, atleast for now. Personally I never see the need to slot for defence debuff, it is just a waste of an enhancement slot.

I sign this, it is an issue that needs to be fixed!

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Thanks. I don't frequent the boards that much and either my search fu wasn't good or there isn't a thread about it anymore.

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Don't feel bad, they just purged the forums recently, so lots of threads have "gone away."

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So that's why I couldn't find my 'Confuse vs Deceive' thread where BAB said they would make a change to confuse to match deceive.

On topic: unfortunately Mind Control is an old set and has many relics which have never been changed. This is one of them. It is further compounded by the fact primary control sets receive less debate on the forum then other AT sets.

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Im sure we can all agree that when it comes to picking the origin of your character, not many people care which one it is, unless you're heavy RP and you put it in your description. The only thing origins ever have done are decide what enhancements you have to buy, give you a little ranged power at level one, and maybe mess with what missions you get from what contacts. My friend and I were discussing this, and we propose a new step to the origin of your character.

Nearly everyone in game has wanted power customization, to change the color of your attacks and such. This is kind of like that. When you choose your origin, it should affect on how exactly you use your powers and how they look.

For example: If you're a Blaster and you choose Technology, perhaps you can throw your fireblast with little flamethrowers attached to your wrist, much like Pyro in Xmen The Last Stand.(Stealin the idea aside) Or say you're a Controller and you choose Magic, maybe every other attack or so, the animation of the attack gives off a magical aura, similar to that of the new Magic Pack buffs.(Fortunes)

Hopefully you see my point. Having your specific origin change the way your powers are used and work would give players much more to think about when choosing they're origin.

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I think the fact origins are only really used for RP purposes is fine and actually helps people to think more about their character and encourages RP.

The same could be argued about a characters gender, height and costume parts.

If we ever get chance to customize our powers, then it should be done independently of origin. By linking it with origin, you are only hindering customization.

Yes you can, because if you think about it, -resist debuffs are affecting the mobs resistant levels and not actually altering the amount of damage you are doing directly.

Or to think of it another way, -resist is lowering a mobs armour values. They might have some resistance levels automatically, such as 30%. Thus you would only be doing 70% of the total damage you could do anyway. If you applied a debuff which then lowered their resistance to -10%, your total damage would then be amplified and you would be doing 110% of the damage you should be doing. Altering a mobs resistance levels is completely independent to how much +damage you can stack before you reach the cap.

Does that kind of make sense? I'm finding it difficult to explain but I'm sure you know what I mean, hopefully!

With controllers you have to know when NOT to use your powers as much as when TO use your powers. Spamming everything in your arsenal is a great way to run out of endurance very fast.

Bad no offence, but I always find your posts judgemental and impulsive with little thought. You seem to complain about everything, from people spending their time to buff you in the sewers with speed boost (or +end recovery) which you moaned about despite admitting you have serious end problems, to leaving a team because you see a +2 CoT ghost - guess you didn't value your team mates at all? You even managed to throw in yet another AE mission farming reference which if you expect me to still believe you are so full of vitriol merely because of the injustice and not because of any direct involvement in the issue you must think of me and other posters as fools.

You may think you are good at this game, but saying you run out of endurance all the time and also saying you need stamina to even play just shows me you aren't as good as you think you are. You are very badly opinionated, very often wrong (in my opinion) and I'm just glad I don't have to team with you. Forum ignore is the only way forward I fear as ignorant posts only annoy me, even in this thread which is only likely to lead to a flaming contest once you start sharing your opinion on high level fire/kin. An opinion which as already stated, is very judgemental.

A slice of maturity will go a long way, perhaps a few more years? Here is hoping, for your sake not mine I may add.

I would advise being at the front of the team and leading, not at the back of the team being pulled along. That way you might be able to activate a power before everything is dead. ;-) Also, you could even use mass hypnosis, confuse or mass confusion to set up the next group without even getting their attention!

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I don't think Mind's soloability is at issue. I can solo using nothing more than MH, Dom, Mes and Lev and never touch my secondary. Mind is decent on a team up to 3-4 players. However, on a team of 8 it is measurably weaker than many sets, relying heavily on Terrify for AoE control.

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You know I just cannot disagree more strongly. I have done many full group TF's across a whole span of levels and many times as the only controlling hero on the team. I have never ever had any problems constantly locking down full groups of mobs and am always the backbone of every team. I just can't disagree enough with your statement! Mind Control has the most control of any set!

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While I understand your reasoning for the TD changes, keep in mind that all the AoE holds were balanced to the same specs. I think the devs would be reluctant to give Mind's better specs, even if it is lacking in the areas you describe. You would get folks complaining that Ice or Gravity or whatever should get similar treatment because those sets also underperform.

In terms of parity, I would like to see Mass Confusion buffed. Other than the non-aggro aspect (which is usless in 90% of situations), Mass Confusion is inferior to Seeds of Confusion in almost every way, particularly the longer (4x) recharge and lower accuracy. A level 32 power should be demonstrably BETTER than a level 8 power. While I understand that Mind doesn't need MC they way Plant needs SoC, at the least MC should have its recharge lowered to 60 seconds and its accuracy increased to 1.0. I would also like to see its chance to crit increased from 20% to 50%.l

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I really think if you buffed Mass Confusion to anywhere near those levels it would be horribly overpowered. Personally I think Seeds of Confusion is overpowered when you consider that confuse is basically a long duration hold where the mobs attack each other, but I wont get into that debate here. Also please don't discount the no aggro portion, that is an important factor to its overall power.

Personally I agree with MentalMaden a lot about Mind's soloability.

I agree with the containment issue, it would be nice if Fear or Confuse could setup containment. Apart from that, Mind is the most powerful set in my experience at control, especially after 32. I never really miss not having a pet to babysit personally.

Having said that, I am fortunate enough to be Mind/Storm, and with thunderclap and mass hypnosis, I can set up AoE containment. I do feel for Mind controllers without that option however. I could write more, but it is late in the UK, sorry! :-)