Peacemoon

Well the Fire/Kin population is rising fast, so that doesn't suprise me. Its always been popular among farmers, but now it is getting to rediculous levels. Just yesterday I was stood in Talos AE with 6 Fire/Kin Controllers and a Stone Tank.

This is debateable to be honest. Giving Defenders better damage does not mean they eclipse Blasters.

If Defender Damage + Defender Debuffs = Blaster Damage

Then

Blaster Damage + Defender Debuffs = Even Better Blaster Damage

My point is, that aslong as Blasters inherently do much more damage then Defenders, there isn't a huge problem.

Also, no one is saying to buff Defender damage by quite that much. Blaster damage is much higher then Defenders, and they themselves have an inherent which further widens this gap.

The problem is, Defenders and Controllers are in direct competition. The reason people want Defender damage buffed is not only because its low, but because Controller damage is so high in comparison.

If anyone should be doing Buffs/Debuffs and Damage, it should be Defenders, not Controllers. This is where the heart of the imbalance exists. Things like Containment and Fulcrum Shift are contributing factors for why Defenders feel sucky.

To make Defenders able to compete with Controllers on this level, you are going to make them overpowered with Blasters. It is a no win situation until Controllers are nerfed.

I think this is still a big issue. Defenders are good only when they get access to powers Controllers can not obtain due to level. Once Defenders and Controllers both reach high levels, the Controller wins hands down.

Controller: Strong Control Primary/Debuff+Buff Secondary.
Defender: Debuff+Buff Primary/Weak Blasting Secondary.

I mean to me, it is obvious. Getting the powers earlier is the only advantage. Especially as with Containment and the strong Control powers, Controllers both do similar damage and can better utilize the buffs/debuffs to their own gain.

I think if we are to really achieve balance here, we really need to adjust the levels of damage both AT's have access to. It is the best way to create a difference between the two.

Containment needs to be removed/adjusted and Defenders need to be looked at closely. Once this is done there will be a clear reason to take a Defender over a Controller, the damage. Trying to make Controller debuff+buffs weaker or Defender debuffs+buffs stronger is not going to change much in my view.

It is really good to see you in a Vigilance thread Castle, I am pleased

My own personal opinion is we need to take Vigilance away from being a Team-Orientated Inherent (Defenders are very good on teams anyway) and use it as something to ease soloing. It could even help them do damage while on a team.

Also moving it away from the health of a team mate. My Forcefield Defender never got anything as all her allies were always at 100%.

I have long thought this as well. Complete immunity to status effects vs complete vulnerability is something really silly in my mind. Scrappers and Tankers should have high levels of resistance but not so much protection, then maybe the devs could create creature-powers designed to effect everyone to some degree and more interesting encounters.

I also agree with you regarding Fulcrum Shift, which with Containment is a major playing in making Controllers too powerful, and even Defenders given the right team setting. I liked someones idea earlier in the thread that some powers which rely on recharge, like Recovery Aura, should have a bigger recharge for Controllers as well.

I know what you are saying Chaos_String and in some ways I can agree with you.

However to me, Gravity has 4 single target attacks, Crush, Lift, Gravity Distortion and Propel that should all do good damage.

Punishing Gravity powers so you get "less bang for your buck" because of its quantity of single target attacks is wrong. The reason I say this is because in my mind, Gravity gives up other powers to have access to them, so they should be each be individually good.

If gravity didn't have lift and propel, imagine what could take its place? Powers like quicksand or shiver? Room for more early AoE control at least. I'm not saying Lift or Propel should be removed, but their existance needs to be justified. Lift should do equal damage to Levitate, irregardless of its other attacks. Currently is does almost half of levitate and less than even air superiority.

Great information regarding Air Superiority, I am assuming this is correct

Your suggestions are good and perhaps less then I would argue for, perhaps there is some middle ground but first we need Gravity to actually get some attention!

I think it is only a 'dead horse' topic because people have given up figuring out why, not because there is an actual answer.

I really don't think everything in this game is designed the way it is for a reason, more like because 'thats the way it has always been'. I would love to see the Devs or anyone try and rationalise Lift, Propel or Dimension Shift in the context of the set as a whole and compare it to other Control sets. To me, the reason Lift does less damage is not because the devs want it to do less damage, but because that is the way it has always been and no one has ever re-evaluated it.

If this was Super Strength we were talking about, you would have 10 people demanding an answer, but because it is Gravity Control, hardly anyone cares enough to do anything.

Gravity gives up a lot of control for having both Lift and Propel. Despite this both powers are gimped. Lift does less damage then even Mesmerize and ST Immobalizes, and propel's damage is not enough when taking into account that Gravity loses a control power to have it, and that Propel's whole design is to do damage.

In Issue 15, this was fixed. However only for the Dominator archtype, Controllers still have a broken version of lift. The above change effectively made Lift and Levitate do equal damage.


Apperantly Lift's damage was nerfed in CoH Beta due to a fear that with Propel, Gravity would do too much damage. I have never been able to confirm this 100% but, how annoying that such a silly change was made and then left and forgotten about for 5yrs? :/

Except he already stated that he positioned them all in a corner, which is very easy to do with Force Bubble actually.

Then you rode in here with your "FORCE BUBBLE SUKCS!" babble, ignoring all the counter-arguements and just repeating the same tosh until people give up and either leave the thread or put you on ignore.

Thunderclap, small radius? Your Mind may be Mind/Rad, but please don't disregard Thunderclap just because most people do. For Mind Control it is very powerful, because it fills the containment gap which you described. Here are the stats for my Thunderclap, just to bring some numbers in:

End Cost: 10.4
Acc: 1.44
Recharge: 18s
Duration: 34.1s
Radius: 25
Mag: 2

This sets up containment on minions, and combined with Psychic Tornado + Terrify, I can almost 2 shot every minion in a pack. Again, this is something that has been missed in this conversation, Mind Control actually brings 2 AoE attacks to the table for even more AoE damage. It is rivalled only by Fire/ because of hot feet, but Mind's combo works much more frontloaded. If you pair up Mind Control with Storm, you can really leverage the double AoE damage due to the extra containment option.

Now you may be right in saying that one cannot expect to set up Thunderclap when in big teams or TF's, and you would be right if not for Mass Hypnosis and Steamy Mist. This allows you to creep into the middle of a slept spawn and Thunderclap without fear. I've done this on many TF's to great effect.

So really, this notion that Mind Control and Freezing Rain don't work together is only accurate at low levels or play, in my experience. When all you have is Mass Hypnosis and Total Domination, and you aren't properly slotted.

Well I do agree, containment is Mind's weakness. However like you say, Thunderclap does have a big radius and I posted the stats of it above. Really, Thunderclap is an excellent power to fill this gap and is one of the reasons Mind/Storm is so great.

Also while Mind has more difficulty setting up AoE containment regularly, it does have higher AoE damage then most sets since it has its own AoE damage, Terrify.


I completely disagree (not suprisingly perhaps >_>) I can't see how you can argue that the population neither needs nor welcomes what Mind/Storm brings to the table.

Mind Control may suffer with AoE containment, but it does not suffer from a lack of AoE control. Mass Hypnosis, Mass Confusion, Total Domination, Terrify, these are more than enough in my experience. When you get really high amounts of recharge, Mass Confusion and Total Domination can easily do most of the control, and you have plenty of choice for when neither are available. The debuffs Storm brings such as Freezing Rain and Hurricane, but also the buffs such as Steamy Mist and o2 Boost are amazing for teams.

As for AV's, I've always felt that I am a big player when fighting AV's at the end of a TF. Hurricane brings -45% to hit, meaning that they rarely land an attack. Freezing Rain, Tornado and Lightning Storm add to the damage. If I am lucky to pair with someone who grabbed their single target Immobalize, my Mind powers can do a lot of damage to.

Really the only thing I cannot stop is their regen and to be honest, when I bring so much to a team already, I honestly don't feel that -regen is my responsibility.

Please tell me how "saving the team" and "pinning all the mobs into a corner" is some how bad for melee players and cripples AoE?

You are talking absolute rubbish, seriously. Just... wow.

Do you know what you sound like? Someone with a grudge against force bubble who isn't thinking logically.

I always thought the options in your sig were a description of your own posts, sort of like a list of ingredients. It seemed to be pretty accurate, to.

I don't know, when people start trying to call the language "American" and not "English" I get pretty annoyed. Whether its a forumite or Valve on Half Life 2. Just because a few letters are changed does not mean the creation of a whole new language.

This whole topic is stupid, only created by some annoying person desperately trying to make a name for themself and cause some drama.

Evolution of language is a very interesting subject, but not from the perspective or intent of this thread.