Peacemoon

I apologize then Talen, when you take the time to articulate your position it becomes much more understandable.

The reason I get so annoyed about Gravity posts is i) Gravity/Kin was my first ever character and I have an attachment to Gravity. ii) Even back then I posted about Gravity as underperforming, back under my old username KineticKat. Seeing nothing major has been done in the years following is just painful. I can't help but feel that it has been neglected.

Gravity has had some attention mind, the introduction of Singularity as a pet to replace team recall, the addition of a disorient to wormhole back when it was just a teleport power. However these are just patchwork fixes and in my mind, we end up with a set which just about works but is essentially flawed and mismatched. This is why Wormhole still has its knockback feature, a feature which dramatically hinders its use. All because one designer stubbornly refused to remove it due to the description saying "you push them through a wormhole". Make them land on their ***, with a knockdown then! Also, all these changes happened many moons ago, nothing has been looked at since.

I will concede that I alone don't have the right to say Dimension Shift should be yoinked and altered/replaced. My personal view is that if the devs changed it to a sleep, it would still share its current use, but make it much more applicable to the game as a whole.

Really, Wormhole should have been properly updated in the first place all those years ago with matching radius, lower activation time, no scattering knockback. If all that happened, Dimension Shift would be an inconvienience but an afterthought.

Do you have a Gravity Controller/Dominator?

Do you have Dimension Shift?

I do, so I think that qualifies me to have an opinion and be able to express it.

I think Gravity Control players are entitled to have an opinion and offer suggestions, just like any other set.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse Talen Lee, as usual I might add.

Is this effecting snipes? Could it be related to interruptable powers perhaps?

Base teleporters, recall friend and Aid self/other are all interuptable.

If not snipes, perhaps interruptable powers that effect self?

Well I have to agree with this.

Terrify minimizes the damage confused targets deal to each other and actually a very good AoE attack, doing 130 damage with containment to all foes that are hit, more if you put in a Positron's Blast proc, more if you factor in something like Freezing Rain.

Combine that with your EPP AoE attack and you have a set which offers great AoE damage, more then most sets I would argue.

Mind's weakness is lack of containment, granted, however as a Mind/Storm, you can use Thunderclap to fill any holes you encounter. When your mass hypnosis and thunderclap have a recharge of less than 20 seconds, its something you exploit to the maximum.

Mind/Storm is an amazing combo and I have shared your experience. It is no suprise to me that you have had a great experience, it mimics mine

Arcanville you are a clever person and I know you know that Dimension Shift is a bad power, but at least let me try explain it to you form my perspective.

The power is problematic because:
I) Dimension Shift causes foes to be unattackable for 30 seconds, it has no use on a team which is doing well.
II) Dimension Shift is therefore only usable as an escape tool to pause or halt combat.
III) Dimension Shift can not be stopped, the team must wait for the full duration to initiate combat. This often slows down a team and is counter-productive.
IV) A lot of people do not understand what Dimension Shift actually does, by the time you've finished explaining to people what has happened, how it works and why you've decided to single handedly stop combat, the phase has almost ended.
V) The Gravity set as a whole relies heavily on single target powers. With the exception of Crushing Field, Dimension Shift is the first AoE control power it has access to. Due to this, Gravity is found lacking early on,

There are more arguments, such as the lack of intangiblity sets but still, I think this is enough.

Potentially, changing Dimension Shift could completely change the way Gravity plays. The popular suggestion is a "Reverse Gravity Field", something akin to Ice Slick but knockup not knockdown. It could take a power that is often skipped, on a set that is overlooked and performing badly and really change it.

Is this not reason enough? What are trying to do here, fix issues regarding Gravity or deliberately adhering to a rule despite all the signs and numbers and experiences staring us in the face? I mean, what is it goign to have to take, seriously.

I think you need to remember the amount of Dev time that has already gone into Dimension Shift. It has changed many times since Issue 1, not that many people would notice because no one ever chooses it.

I) An immobalization effect was added to stop Shifted enemies from running around amongst the team trying to attack but being unable to.

II) Graphical effects were increased to make it more "visual" since people complained it was hard to tell when Dimension Shift was used. This wasn't enough.

III) Intangibility enhancements were changed so that instead of increasing duration which was thought to be a redundent effect, they would increase magnitude. Statesman (I think it was Statesman) stated that this was so that Gravity controllers could decide wether they wanted it to effect bosses or not or even Archvillains I guess. I haven't seen this work in my experiences and actually, even without enhancements Dimension Shift still captures Bosses sometimes.

IV) The words "Dimension Shift!" were added as overtext to further help distinguish between shifted targets, however in my experiences (as recent as today) all this has caused is people grunting and moaning immediately after it is used rather then 10 seconds later when they realise it has taken effect.

V) Any changes I've missed when I was away.

I mean, it has been 5 years. Is this the best the Devs can do?

If the Devs are really determined on keeping its functionality as a fight pauser, why not change it to an AoE Sleep? It has a similar effect, but gives Gravity more control and utility atleast its something. You could fit it in thematically similar to Flash Freeze and Salt Crystals.

Your mastery of gravity allows you to manipulate dimensions, bringing multiple foes out of sync with reality. Any harmful attack will cause these foes to return to normal space.

Thanks for reading.

Stated much better then I could have, thanks

I don't think it would necessarily be quick because my understanding is containment is coded on to each Controller primary power individually, the containment icon you get as an inherent doesn't actually do anything. This is why some powers such as repulsion bomb and sands of mu don't get any bonus, it isn't a blanket thing.

Yes, we need to buff Defenders, but you are being naive.

The only way to make Defenders balanced and worthwhile given Controllers current overpowered state is to make make Defenders overpowered as well. Then Blasters are upset and soon, everyone is upset.

"Nerfing" containment is completely justified. Its not even a nerf, it is just a way to stop it from being abused with massive +damage from /Kinetics, it would have no effect on most solo controllers.

Are we talking Seeds of Confusion slotted with Coercive Pursuasion? Numbers such as 20s Recharge, 1min 20s duration, chance for overpower and chance for contagious confusion?

If anything you are just proving what I said before about A) Seeds being overpowered and B) Plant being the 'newest' kid on the block so the devs were not clever in how they designed it and just "lets make it cool!"

For the record my statement regarding Mind I was talking more with just single target abilities and not counting the AoE ones. I was thinking of a lower level range also, more like 12.

My Mass Confusion is slotted with Coercive Pursuasion as well and with Overpower and Contagious Confusion it can take out most bosses by itself. It does have a long recharge to go with it (93s), but I consider that more balanced then Seeds recharge, which is just silly and ultimately, boring.

Well Fulcrum Shift is overpowered no matter what set it is combined with. Its just Ice/Kin and Earth/Kin don't leverage it as much solo as Fire/Kin's do.

In teams however, Fulcrum Shift has the same effect on Scrappers, Blasters and Tankers whether you are a Fire/ or an Ice/

In that sense, it is overpowered in every regard.

Having said that, Kinetics without Fulcrum Shift is not a great set really, so I wouldn't propose making changes.

A more strategic way would be to tackle it through changing containment, an inherent that is fundementally broken and combining it with fulcrum shift almost takes Controller damage into the realms of exploitive. Hot Feet, not Fire Imps is the key.

Fire does not have weaker control, Fire actually has pretty good control.

Exactly, this is a problem really. CoV is much more balanced in this respect and also has less Copy/Pasting of powersets. For instance, a Mastermind Dark Miasma has a much smaller radius on its heal. Controllers have no such penalties like that.

I think changing Containment to fall inside of damage buffs would be a great first step. I don't see the point in damage caps when Containment effectively walks straight around it and effectively raises the Controllers damage cap by a huge margain.

If containment did +100% damage, it would still have the same effect yet would also fall inside normal damage caps. You would only feel it as a nerf if you were damage capped, and that is the is the situation where Controllers are too powerful.

This was already done, Defender blasts already have elevated secondary effects such as -hit and -defence. Improving these further will not solve the low damage of Defenders and actually could cause more imbalance.

Not to mention some sets like Archery, Assault Rifle, Energy and Electric would gain minimal from this.

I think you are right here in that Gravity is meant to be more damage and less control. Although comparing it with Fire is a battle which cannot be won, good for comparison though.

Personally I would like to compare it to Mind/, both Gravity and Mind have many single target attacks and if Gravity had an attack chain like Mind's, then things would be much better.


I think this is an excellent point and also something I would agree with.

Again comparing Crush and Gravity Distortion to Mind's Mesmerize and Dominate, while the damage is equal, Mind does its damage initially in one quick shot where as Gravity does its damage over time. In the case of Crush, I discovered it does its damage over 9 seconds.

To further compound this, Lift does far less damage then levitate. It has a slightly shorter recharge and activation, but this does little to compensate. It needs to do equal damage to levitate really.

Propel has always had this problem with activation time as well. Otherwise it is a very decent attack but due to the long cast time, I found it actually can leave you very vulnerable even when solo.

Singy does help but as you said, it attacks random enemies. Its like having someone trying to cover you with a gun but being blindfolded - they might get a lucky hit but most of the shots will hit something you couldn't care less about.

For me the big problem with Wormhole is the way using it is like simulating the feeling of being caught off guard. The animation is so long, it scatters and worst of all, the mobs retaliate before the disorient is applied. A truly said state of affairs.

All your suggestions are logical. The problem with Gravity is almost every power could use some tinkering with to make the set work. At the moment it somehow pulls itself together but really it could use a complete overhaul. Every power in the set changed.

Here is my list of reccomendations:

Crush: Remove the DoT and make the damage direct. As if it was one big initial crush rather then crushing them over time.

Lift: Increase the damage to match Levitate.

Gravity Distortion: Remove the DoT and make te damage direct. Consider changing the damage type to Energy.

Propel: Lower the activation time, as Weatherby suggested, remove the bit where the object is summoned. 2.0s is a long activation time, let alone 3.5s. With the damage it does, 2.0 would be bearable.

Crushing Field: No change.

Dimension Shift: Enant's suggestion of it being no aggro has some merit I think.

I think the best change short of completely removing it would be to turn it into an AoE Sleep. This would give Gravity some much needed exta AoE control. Think Salt Crystals and Flash Freeze for thematics.

Your mastery of gravity allows you to manipulate dimensions, bringing multiple foes out of sync with reality. Any harmful attack will cause these foes to return to normal space.

Gravity Distortion Field: No change

Wormhole:

- Lower the activation time by a lot. My suggestion would be to remove the animation where you raise your hands in the air, and just have the "push" part. Like a *snap* and the enemy is ported.

- Increase the radius to 25

- Change the Knockback to Knockdown - seriously! Gravity is the only Control Set which scatters mobs when it attempts to disorient them.

Singularity: No change, although adding Propel to its list of attacks would be fun - if its activation is lowered.


These changes would make Gravity so much better and more fun, and it wouldn't be overpowered which is the temptation when overhauling a set.

I didn't really want to be drawn into a Mind vs Plant argument that is why, both sets are very good and both are capable of single handedly controlling for a team.

Plant has the advantage of being the new kid, it was designed much later then other control sets and this gives it an advantage. The devs were much more clued up when they created it. These days new powersets are created with so many jewels in the rough its more like rough in the jewels, but I digress. This is not to say Mind is bad, just its a minor miracle that its so good compared to what it could have turned out like (Gravity..)


Plant is a good set, no one is debating that. But saying what you said there to me strikes as someone deliberately trying to make a point and perhaps even an argument. You are obviously a Mind/ player who played a lot of Plant/ and prefer it, but let me tell you a little about me. I have played many Controllers, Earth, Ice, Plant(Dom), Gravity and Mind. For me, Mind Control was the last one I chose but also the one I fell in love with the most - it became my first and only level 50.

Why? Because it has powerful solo capabilities and powerful team capabilities. Mesmerize, Dominate and Levitate all slotted as attacks will make you one of the best soloing Controllers you can make, right from level 4. Gravity should be at this level or even better, since it has 4 not 3 attacks.

Mind's powers are not so straightforward though and to some extent must be used with finesse and elegance, but to great effect. It requires a certain amount of stratergy but when it works well there is a whole lot of satisfaction. This is the kind of challenge I enjoy, I like sets that make me think.

In comparison I find Plant to be very boring once the novelty of Seeds being overpowered wears off. Yes it has other tools in the box, but they are rarely needed and completely surplus. Its one power for almost every situation and requires no skill or stratergy which to me, is a huge turn off.

Remember, before Plant Control there was only one set in the whole game which had AoE Confuse - Mind. That is what made it unique. Some people used it as justification for lack of a pet (I remember the threads). Personally I prefer not having a pet, especially with Mind's strong attack chain. Also I fell in love with Mind far after Plant had already been released, so its not an issue I'm worried about but its one worth remembering.

The devs gave AoE confuse to Plant in a manner which to me, shows a complete lack of clever design. It strikes me that they wanted to make the set very good, and not necessarily very balanced. They didn't alter the already VERY long duration of confuse at all (37.3s base). A duration which is fine for a single target attack or a long recharge Mass Confuse but on a short recharge, excessively wide cone? If you consider that its effectively an even better version of a hold, the duration really seems out of line for all confuse powers.

As for more about Mind vs Plant, I disagree with your assessment that AoE is always better then ST for control. I mean, it has huge advantages but ST controls are good for taking out the big threats to your team. They rehcarge fast and have long durations.

Mind offers a team no aggro sleeps and confuses. Plant even though it mirrors Mind's powers, does not have access to this. Mind has access to 2 powerful AoE's for full lockdown, Mass Confusion and Total Domination. Mind can back this up with 4 very strong ST attacks, confuse, 100% knockup, Mag 3.5 Sleep (1 shotting bosses and AV's) and of course the hold.

A mind controller can easily control 3 bosses at once, 4+ if you have oppertunity to sleep them, in comparison a Plant Controller has to rely on immobalizes for bosses it can't hold using its single target hold, or chance it with an overpower.

A mind controller also brings AoE damage to the table with Terrify. A wide AoE fear which is pretty much Seeds of Confusion but fear instead of confusion and excellent damage.

Both sets can get the job done easily, but to me, Mind is more interesting, more challenging and more rewarding. Its variety of ST attacks in combination with its AoE's make it for me, the set with the most tools for when things go wrong.

The only drawback to Mind is its reliance on Mass Hypnosis at early levels. Now, you can either fight against it or you can embrace it. Personally I found many ways you can use it to very good effect, I've written enough without going into that here though.

Getting back on topic:

I completely agre Ketch.

So Defenders can't get increased damage because they are "Force Multipliers" and it would be overpowered. However you yourself admit that Controllers are "Force Multipliers" and thus its okay for them to not only bring more to a team but also bring more damage?

To me, any arguement that Defenders shouldn't get more damage is an arguement for why Controllers should have Containment nerfed.

Here's a question, how are Controllers not force multipliers?

Does a team consisting of a

Kin/Rad Defender
Rad/Energy Defender
ForceField/Archery Defender

really that much better off than a team consisting of a

Ice/Kin Controller
Earth/Rad Controller
Illusion/Forcefield Controller?


Is it not the case that the higher level these team go, the more Controllers edge farther and farther ahead?

Once you get to the 40's and EPP's, there is effectively no more reason to BE a Defender over a Controller.