PRAF68_EU

I don't agree 100% with Razor, but the fact remains that Bane Spiders are no better at buffing teams than the other SoA, and they do everything else worse.

As an example, if Banes got Mind Link at 35 instead of Web cocoon, then they would be the best team buffer out of the SoA, so it wouldn't matter if there suvivability and damage wasn't as good as the others.

Just thought I would do one while I was doing crabs and banes.

1) Poison Dart
1) Combat Training: Defensive
2) Swipe
4) Tactical Training: Maneuvers
6) Hasten
8) Build Up
10) Indomitable Will
12) Lunge
14) Superspeed
16) Hurdle
18) Slash
20) Mask Presence
22) Foresight
24) Mind Link
26) Health
28) Stamina
30) Tactical Training: Assault
32) Psychic Scream
35) Mental Training
38) Elude
41) Placate
44) Combat Training: Offensive
47) Spin
49) Smoke Grenade

Looking over it, I think leaving out a travel power might be a good idea. It's just a matter of having enough slots for Swift, Mental Training and Sprint.
Noticed mental Training isn't available to 22 though. Here is a revamp of my ranged build without a travel power.

1) Channelgun
1) Crab Spider Armor Upgrade
2) Longfang
4) Combat Training: Defensive
6) Sprint
8) Suppression
10) Tactical Training: Maneuvers
12) Venom Grenade
14) Aim
16) Hasten
18) Tactical Training: Assault
20) Health
22) Mental Training
24) Fortification
26) Stamina
28) Serum
30) Tactical Training: Leadership
32) Omega Maneuver
35) Summon Spiderlings
38) Call Reinforcements
41) School of Sharks (LM)
44) Bile Spray (LM)
47) Summon Guardian (LM)
49) Assault (Leadership pool)

NB, I had a very good reason for going with Mako as patron. The Venom Grenade is -20% resistance, but -40% resistance to toxic. Goes very nicely with Bile Spray.

Done a melee crab build too.

1) Slice
1) Crab Spider Armor Upgrade
2) Wolf Spider Armor
4) Combat Training: Offensive
6) Boxing
8) Combat Jumping
10) Tactical Training: Maneuvers
12) Venom Grenade
14) Superjump
16) Arm Lash
18) Hurdle
20) Tactical Training: Assault
22) Health
24) Fortification
26) Stamina
28) Serum
30) Frenzy
32) Omega Maneuver
35) Summon Spiderlings
38) Call Reinforcements
41) Tough
44) Aim
47) Mental Training
49) Weave

Well you could just get all the leadership powers, Cloaking Device and the Medicine Pool and play a buff bot.

I would probably go for a fortunata if I wanted that stile of play though.

No travel power? A bold move.

While I was doing builds, I thought I have a bash at a crab. This build isn't really intended for play below level 28 or so.

1) Channelgun
1) Crab Spider Armor Upgrade
2) Longfang
4) Combat Training: Defensive
6) Combat Jumping
8) Suppression
10) Tactical Training: Maneuvers
12) Venom Grenade
14) Superjump
16) Mental Training
18) Tactical Training: Assault
20) Hurdle
22) Health
24) Fortification
26) Stamina
28) Serum
30) Tactical Training: Leadership
32) Omega Maneuver
35) Summon Spiderlings
38) Call Reinforcements
41) School of Sharks (LM)
44) Bile Spray (LM)
47) Summon Guardian (LM)
49) Aim

Edit: having given it some thought, I think there is a lot to be said for a pure ranged build. A melee build would also be an option.

The thing is, if you get your full attack chain early on, you pretty much have to take Bash, and Bash nulifies Combat Training: Defensive, since it will keep you in melee range.

Unless you plan on spending most of your life exemplared it is better to fill out your attack chain with the later more powerful attacks.

Oh, and since the have fixed the redraw on Mace Mastery, I have come up with this varient, which should have an easier time soloing EBs at high level, since you can tag team pets:

1) Mace Beam
1) Bane Spider Armor Upgrade
2) Wolf Spider Armor
4) Combat Training: Defensive
6) Hasten
8) Build Up
10) Tactical Training: Maneuvers
12) Poisonous Ray
14) Superspeed
16) Pulverise
18) Shatter
20) Swift
22) Health
24) Cloaking Device
26) Stamina
28) Surveillance
30) Placate
32) Crowd Control
35) Mental Training
38) Call Reinforcements
41) Web Envelope (MM)
44) Disruptor Blast (MM)
47) Summon Blaster (MM)
49) Tactical Training: Assault

Edit: pushed Poisonous Ray back to level twelve to make exemplaring easier.

Yup, I was building on the assumption that I couldn't be a bane spider below level 24, when I have 3 attacks, plus Hasten to recycle them faster.

If I am exemplared below level 18, well I have my VR attacks to fall back on.

Ok, here is a build up to 50:

1) Mace Beam
1) Bane Spider Armor Upgrade
2) Wolf Spider Armor
4) Combat Training: Defensive
6) Hasten
8) Build Up
10) Tactical Training: Maneuvers
12) Hurdle
14) Superspeed
16) Pulverise
18) Shatter
20) Health
22) Stamina
24) Cloaking Device
26) Placate
28) Surveillance
30) Poisonous Ray
32) Tactical Training: Assault
35) Mental Training
38) Call Reinforcements
41) Crowd Control
44) Web Cocoon
47) Mace Beam Blast
49) Tactical Training: Leadership

Edit: extended to 50, made a correction

Well, you certainly havn't got the strongest possible build there!

You nead the Tactical Training powers and Manuovers for defense, and you need to take only the heavy hitting melee attacks, Bash will just get you killed. Instead you need to use the ranged attacks: your best defense is vs ranged attacks, so stay out of melee as much as possible.

This is one of the problems with the current implementation, your best attacks appear to be melee, but you best defense is vs ranged.

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Also can't Banes get the Venom Grenade from the Arachnos Soldier pool? Though there is a redraw, essentially it's not that different

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Yes, but I think most players would consider the redraw incompatable with fun play.

It's worth nothing that Pummel from the wolf set could also be usesful to suvival, as it has a higher chance of sun than any of the mace powers, and frag grenade has a higher chance of KB. I just don't think that many banes will be happy to discover that thier old gun is a better weapon than thier shiny mace.

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Number crunching to see if things are balanced is a mammoth task.

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Yes it is.

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Its not simply compare this power with that and eliminate it.

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No, you have to compare the set as a whole.

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Some powers work with other powers better. It would take me days to compare sets, not even properly, just as best I could. Banes maybe okay! Its just everybody else...

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Yes. I have done the comparison. I have done the maths myself. I have taken the set as a whole. I have compared like with like. I have done it myself, not gone by what other people have said. And yes, it has taken a couple of days.

And you know what? In the current test build bane spiders work out inferior to anything similar, not just in one area but across the board. I am not saying they are unplayable, just unbalanced. I'm not saying that bane spiders will be inferior when issue 12 goes live. I am saying that as things stand at the moment the desperately need a buff.

Mene, Mene, Tekel, Parsin.

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both spiders will be just as potent as the other
Crabs with there AoE and more pets will do alot of wide spread damage (and thus take alot of aggro which leads to the we need healer on team line)

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Crab AOEs have larger areas, and are more potent because crabs have an aoe res debuff, whereas banes only have a single target res debuff. Crabs have more than twice as many pets. Whilst a Bane might "need a healer" Crabs can heal themselves.

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Bane spider who will have ALOT less damage and placate as a damage increaser/escape too.

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You do realise the recharge time on Bane placate has just been tripled?

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ppl said stalkers couldent do MoRSF

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No one said they couldn't do it. they just said it would be easier with a different AT instead. Which it is. With the side effect of making it harder to get a place on a team for such an attempt. Stalkers at least perform satisactory in PvP and solo PvE. Banes are inferior to other ATs at everything. You might still play one because you like a challenge or for RP reasons, but to make an AT weaker by design, with nothing that can't be done better by another AT, is simply poor design in a multiplayer game.

This is of course the key factor. With the fast placate bane spiders could hold thier own. Without it they are inferior to all the other SoAs.

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The "Learn to Play" bit is key.

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Numbers > Lean to play.

Compare Crab spiders. Team buffs: equal. Team damage: far superior because of aoes, suvivability: far superior. What team would want a bane spider when a crab spider was available?

Combare Night Widows: Team buffs: superior (Mind Link, Vengence), damage: superior (because of placate nerf), suvivability: superior (Elude). What team would want a Bane if a Night Widow was available?

All this is assuming optimum builds and skilled play of course, and a skilled player with anything is greater than a rubbish player with anything. However, when getting into teams is an issue information about skill isn't available, so they have to make decisions based on numbers. And the numbers say Banes are inferior.

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Note to Banes: Maneuvers 15% Def!

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Exactly the same as it is for crabs and widows. Doesn't excatly even the balance does it?

You mean: Banes should suck without a team because Syracuse hates people who solo?

I don't think that is a good reason. +6% S/L resistance breaks what exactly?

As an alternative suggestion, they could replace Web Cocoon with Foresight (widow power) at level 35. Web Cocoon could go in the PPP.

Here are some ajustments I suggested in another thread:

Wolf Spider Armour. Increas S/L res to 9%. Remove psi resistance.

Reasoning: Buffs wolf and bane spiders. Should make level 1-24 less of a slog. 3% buffs arn't worth slotting, but 9% buffs are. 2% psi resist is worthless. Gives Crab spiders reason to take this power as well as Crab Spider Upgrade.

Crab Spider Armor Upgrade: Remove S/L/Psi resistance. Add 9% Fire/Cold/NRG/Neg/Tox. Add mag 2 KB protection (slottable like new Acro but 100%).

Reasons: Should complement rather than replace Wolf Spider Armor more. This is an upgrade to protect you from a greater range of threats. All that heavy crab armor should make you harder to knock back.

Fortification: Reduce F/C/NRG/Neg/Tox resistance to 15%.

Reason: To balance changes to other armours.


Other powers unchanged.


This would give:

Bane:
Resistance: +16.5% S/L, 7.5% rest
Def: +21.25% ranged, +13.75% rest
Mez prot: mag 6
+hp: 20%
Crab:
Resistance: +24% S/L, +0% Psi, 24% rest
Def: +17.5% ranged, +10% rest
Mez prot: mag 14.3
+hp: 40%
Self Heal

Another irony, Banes are highly dependent on teams for suvival, but Banes focus heavily on single target damage, and teams fight large spawns where aoe damage is far more effective.

Wheras Crabs focus on aoe damage, making them much more desirable in teams, but they are much less dependant on teams for defense.

You mean apart from a self heal, over twice as much resistance, and not having to go into melee range to fight?!

And don't underestimate the effect of having 5 or 6 pets when combined with the Tactical Training toggles.

And Aim = +50% damage.



Here are the figures, assuming all shields taken, and no slotting.

Bane:
Resistance: +10.5% S/L, 9.5% Psi, 7.5% rest
Def: +21.25% ranged, +13.75% rest
Mez prot: mag 6
+hp: 20%

Crab:
Resistance: +21% S/L, +4% Psi, 25% rest
Def: +17.5% ranged, +10% rest
Mez prot: mag 14.3
+hp: 40%
Self Heal

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With Banes I see a variety of types that can be made. Each type is better suited to different people, with different playstyles and who play in different team make ups. Sometimes you have to think

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The trouble is, with Banes, atm there is only one play style that works, and that is to team up with at least 4 other Arachnos soldiers so you can hit the def soft cap.

This is not true of any of the other 3 SoA, which work fine with a variety of builds and play styles.

Yup. Palcate nerf is a biggie. Buff Wolf Spider Armor to 9% S/L resistance. Increase non suppressing melee and AOE def to Cloaking Device (trying to get a little campaign going here).

IMO and AT that only performs in teams is as broken as an AT that is only effective solo (i.e. stalkers). In this case, Banes don't just need to team, they need to team with a specific AT, i.e. more SoA. Doubly broken.

Banes (and all pre 24 soldiers) need a defensive buff, which chould be done by buffing Wolf Spider Armor, as I suggest in the training room thread.

Another option would be to buff the non-suppressing melee and aoe defense in Cloaking Device, so as to better mesh with Combat Training: Defensive.

It's also worth mentioning that Banes got a major nerf to Placate in the latest patch in the US, which makes them even more in need of a defensive buff.

Having seen the powers, I'm currently planning on going Bane from 24-35, because they look to have the most interesting powers in that level range, then respecing to crab and going pet mad.