Oedipus_Tex
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I'm just curious whether Empathy will still be held in high regard once Thermal comes to Defenders. I personally love Thermal, but could never get into Empathy.
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Quote:Thanks for explaining. My experience has been a bit different. Even running AA, I find myself hitting the PBAoE heal 2 or 3 times per fight.
Honestly? Not that much past, perhaps, the mid teens. Control, after all, does reduce the need for healing in general. If anything, it's treated as a self heal probably 60% of the time I use it.
The way I usually run things in a team is to let the tank jump in, then open with Ice Slick, Shiver and Melt Armor (if it is up), then run to a spot where I can surround mobs in AA but keep them about 10 feet away. Anything that tries to get closer gets a Block of Ice. Once things are in AA's radius the rate of fire drops drastically. By then I am usually checking to see which allies need their buffs refreshed, which I can do in relative security because AA keeps shenanigans to a minimum. I also fire Warmth every so often to keep everyone's HP bars full (I do this even if I can't see any damage in the team window, because if no one else pets are practically guaranteed to be taking damage).
For solo work, ideally I drop Ice Slick from behind a wall, then run in with Melt Armor and Shiver, before finally jumping in with AA. Enemies are then invited to a meet-and-greet with a fire shielded, Forged Jack Frost. What I have found is that anything that stays in AAs radius is easily dealt with from this point forward.
Where I mainly run into problems is when mobs are too scattered to surround, and some of them are able to shoot at me. Their rate of fire outside of AA is around double what it would normally be, because the Confusion in AA has about a 50% chance to cause them to blow their attacks on each other.
This, to me, is the major draw of AA. By itself, flooring the recharge on an enemy increases the rate of fire on a 5 second recharge power to a max of 20 seconds. But with AA's Confusion, this changes to around a 50% chance for 40 seconds, 25% chance for 60 seconds, 12.5% chance for 90 seconds. Combined with Ice Slick to keep enemies from shooting me at the start of the fight, it is a safe way to get enemies to discharge their first shot so that -Recharge goes a lot further.
All of this said, there is one kind of enemy that gives me major headaches solo: anything with a mezz. It is critical that I hit mezzers quickly, because if they get me first and the toggle drops, this is pretty much instant death. It's these moments when I realize just how effective AA is. One moment I am easily standing toe to toe with 10+ enemies, the next I am tasting the floor thanks to a 1 second sleep. Other Controllers have issues with mezzers too, but its always alarming how fast I go down the instant AA drops. On the other hand, it illustrates to me how ridiculously amazing this power is. -
Either is good but I would vote for /Cold.
Storm can be tricky to master, particularly when mixed with Ice. Ice is a very powerful set played up close, and Storm is known for its knockback. Tornado also benefits from locking foes down, but locking them down keeps from slipping on Ice Slick.
Cold will give you shields that stack with the Scrapper's armor. You mentioned the heal as a possible reason to pick Storm, but O2 Burst is a piddly heal at best. (It is more of an anti-mezz than a heal, and the Scrapper will have mezz protection anyway). The Cold shields will do more to protect your partner than the heal will be able to. -
Quote:This makes me curious. I run an Ice/Thermal Controller, which I think is pretty comparable to Ice/Empathy, and I can't imagine how you can say AA would do you "zero good." The radius on AA is the same as your PBAoE heal. Are you also not using that power?
AA does that character exactly zero good, so I never took it. They don't get into melee with me, and if they do - they're held, slowed, about to trip up on an ice patch, and/or dealing with Jack.
Ice Slick is a good power, but it is frequently cancelled by other Controllers or or outright resisted. I haven't found it reliable enough to reduce total incoming damage. It is very effective when it works, though. -
Quote:That's a great explanation. It's funny, because Flash was my first encounter with an AoE hold. I concluded it sucked and dropped it. Independently, I ended up with Glacier on an Ice troller who passed the Illusion guy up in level. I got Glacier and thought "this isn't so bad." And it got better as I went up in level. It wasnt until much later that I realized it was the same power with different graphics.
Additionally, Arctic Air suffers from what I like to call "Flash sucks" syndrome. For Illusion controllers, Flash comes too early in the build. Flash comes at level 6 where, without a fully slotted SO build and without additional control options, it is a pretty useless power. People who take it early almost always conclude that . . . "Flash sucks!" But later on, when it is fully slotted with the right kind of enhancements, Flash is a decent power.
I have to say in the case of AA some of the reason people may be concluding that it sucks is coming from the advice they are getting on how to slot it at low levels. IMO, AA is the most important power to six slot early in your career. Starting out it should be slotted almost entirely with endurance reduction trainings (the equivalent of "let me use this power more often" for a toggle). As you go up in level, the end redux should be gradually changed over to Confusion duration.
It might also require a change of mentality for low level characters. I think a lot of people look at toggles and assume it should be on ALL the time. The mental adjustment low level users of AA have to make, IMO, is to think of the toggle as just a placeable long duration AoE that you can move around the battlefield as necessary. Thought of that way, the considerable power of AA should be more apparant, as should the idea that it should sometimes be turned off between fights, when it provides no benefit.
BTW does anyone have any information on how effective AA is at detecting hiders in PvP? It's one of the few powers with that function, and it has saved my skin in difficult AE missions, but I've never used it in PvP. -
I think I've asked this question before so hopefully you will forgive me.
I keep running into Ice Controllers on PUGs who do not have Arctic Air. The actual builds have varied, ranging from what I would call absolutely terrible (lvl 25 Ice/Empathy with only Block of Ice and Ice Slick from the primary) to just varied. The lack of Arctic Air makes me wonder how much they are contributing to the team, tho.
I have a level 50 Ice/Thermal. And what I can't figure out is what powers people are leveraging in order to skip Arctic Air. I also have to wonder if all the people skipping this power aren't the reason so many believe Ice isn't a very good primary.
I have heard some say that Shiver can replace Arctic Air, and that Ice is a "melee optional" set, but to me thats like saying Quicksand (decent slow and -defense) replaces Volcanic Gasses (ridiculously awesome AoE hold).
Another opinion I've heard is that getting into melee is too dangerous for a squishy. It seems very odd to me that this objection is frequently posed for Ice Control but not for (for example) Kinetics Defenders, who are much more vulnerable to attack than an Ice Controller.
So, opinions? Am I just an AA snob? -
Quote:Agreed about Freezing Rain, but I might have misinterpreted the original statement, which was that Seeds is better mitigation than ANY knockdown patch. Seeds is very, very good, but there are situations where the knockdown is preferred. There is a very strong argument for rooting in Plant but much less so in Earth or Ice, and IMO both of those sets still come out ahead of Plant in terms of reliable damage mitigation.Originally Posted by brophog02
Two things:
1) Contagious Confuse proc added to seeds also gets nearly all of the bosses.
2) A knockdown patch, while helping with bosses, does not mitigate nearly the amount of total damage coming in from the entire spawn that seeds does even without getting the bosses. While bosses are usually the big threats, we're really concerned about total damage, regardless of source, and if I can completely mitigate all but the bosses I'm better off than mostly mitigating all plus the bosses. That's true for solo, and even moreso for teams.
On a plant/storm, freezing rain is mostly used as a debuff because seeds is just that good. You're still better off with seeds+roots+freezing rain than you are using freezing rain for its knockdown effect, in no small part because roots is your primary killing weapon at least until 35. Even after 35, when Tornado becomes available, roots is your primary killing weapon in that it leverages Tornado.
In terms of power strength, freezing rain as a complete power is one of the most powerful all around choices in the game. As strictly a knockdown effect, however, it is well below what seeds can do. -
Quote:At the risk of getting off topic, I think this is debatable.
Seeds is far better mitigation than any knockdown patch in terms of total spawn control.
Seeds is great when a large spawn of lts and minions is tightly grouped together. Patches are great when an extra group shows up, there is an ambush, or you are flying and need to target a wide AoE below you.
What is also often forgotten is that patches natively get around boss-level mezz protection, unless the enemy happens to have knockback resistance. And frankly, its the bosses that are problematic, not the rest of the spawn.
And, of course, patches can be created from behind walls, unlike Seeds.
So, Seeds is still great at what it does. But I would say Seeds and patches are close to equal in power. Especially in relation to the rest of the power set they appear in. -
Any primary works well with /Storm, but as others have mentioned there are 4 main ones to pick from that accomplish what you are looking for. Here's my take on those 4 sets, building on what others have said. I bulleted the lists so positives are listed with a + and negatives with a -. These are all just my opinions, of course.
FIRE
+ Highest damage combo
+ Thunderclap stacks with Flashfire for an AoE stun
+ Thunderclap is PBAoE, and you will be in melee anyway with Hot Feet/Cinders
- High endurance costs due to various toggles
- Doesn't provide as much damage mitigation for the team as other combos would
Suggested skippable powers in this combo: Smoke, Bonfire, Ring of Fire
PLANT
+ Second highest damage combo
+ Many AoE holds available prevent foes from being knocked back, much more so than in other sets...
- ...on the other hand, this is also prevents foes from being knocked *down* by Freezing Rain
+ Steamy Mist makes achieving PvE invisibility easy - critical for optimal use of Seeds of Confusion
- Provides marginally less protection than Earth or Ice would
Suggested skippable powers in this combo: Entangle, Thunderclap, Spirit Tree
ICE
+ Possible to toggle between Freezing Rain and Ice Slick for constant knockdown zone action
+ Capable of nearly flooring the recharge +4 enemies with *autohit* powers alone (Arctic Air + Snow Storm)
+ Recharge and slow debuffs are not affected by magnitude defenses, so controls work on bosses (and even epic bosses, giant monsters, and AVs, tho resistance starts to come into play here)
+/- Effects can be very subtle, defined by enemies standing around NOT doing anything, as opposed to other sets that advertise your contribution more obviously
- Very low damage until mid 30s
- Storm's knockback can play havoc with Ice's need to get in close (arctic air) and desire to avoid anti-kb powers (ice slick)
- High endurance use (mostly because of Arctic Air)
Suggested skippable powers in this combo: Shiver OR Snow Storm (recommend Shiver if you can handle the endurance cost of SS), Flash Freeze, Thunder Clap (possibly)
EARTH
+ Possible to toggle between Freezing Rain and Earthquake for constant knockdown zones
+ Possible to stack Stalagmites and Thunderclap to stun bosses (but perhaps slightly more awkward than with Fire, because Earth tends to be more ranged in nature)
+ Most sturdy of the various Controller pets
+/- Extremely loud, explosive graphics and sounds that call a lot of attention to you
+ Debuffs Defense on top of providing control
- Very low damage until mid 30s
Suggested skippable powers in this combo: Stone Prison OR Stone Cages, Snow Storm OR Quicksand, Salt Crystals -
Quote:I'm still not understanding the logic here. Why would you turn off Disruption Field because you are trying to use a knockback aura on a different team member? If the answer is "because of the endurance cost" then it seems to illustrate pretty effectively that Sonic is saddled with some endurance limitations. If the answer is that "it would make enemies go flying" then I have to wonder what is so different between Sonic Repulsion and Repulsion Field. I have and use Repulsion Field on my FF and enemies don't get flung all over.
I don't see situations that justify the use of sonic repulsion as those that warrant the the use of disruption field, generally. If there is a tank with disruption field who is using it effectively, the addition of sonic repulsion on anyone in the team is very likely going to counteract that, especially if it's left on long enough for the endurance cost to matter. If disruption field isn't being used effectively, then it might as well be turned off to save endurance, which I've done on more than one occasion.
If the power is only being used very briefly, then comparing the toggle costs aren't very informative, right?
That's not an attempt to justify the endurance costs, it's just that I can only see powers like forcebubble and sonic repulsion being more problematic if they had no endurance cost, as people that don't care about the consequences of those powers would turn them off.
For the record, Force Bubble has a much, much lower endurance cost than Sonic Repulsion. It costs 40%-ish less at its base and doesn't take away endurance for each enemy repelled. It's also worth noting that the power used to cost considerably more endurance than it currently does, and it was changed precisely because a combination of being marginally useful and extremely costly made most people skip it.
Sonic Repulsion actually has similarities to another Force Field power that has since been changed: Repulsion Bomb. The premise of this power was that you could cast it on an ally and knockback any enemies standing nearby. The power now does knockdown and damage instead. Make Sonic Repulsion do knockdown (perhaps one tick every 10 seconds) and I will never complain about its obscene endurance cost again. -
Quote:I don't understand what you mean about using disruption field and sonic repulsion in the same place at the same time being problematic. Do you mean using them on the same teammate? Well, of course you wouldn't do that. But if using sonic repulsion means you have to drop disruption field on the tank... well I can't imagine a situation where that is ever a viable tactic. Maybe if the team is about to wipe and everyone is running away? What situation are you picturing where you would take Disruption Field off a tank in order to use Sonic Repulsion instead?
Considering powers like repulsion field, force bubble, personal forcefield, and sonic repulsion are rarely used in typical combat, and even foolishly used if all at once, I'm not sure your comparison is relevant at all. If you try to use disruption field and sonic repulsion in the same place at the same time, you'll have larger issues than endurance. The same goes for PFF, repulsion field, and force bubble.
I also didn't mean to imply that a Force Fielder would typically run all 4 toggles at once. PFF and Force Bubble, as you point out, are mutally exclusive. Typically a FF will run Dispersion Bubble all the time, and Repulsion Field when it is needed. A Sonic will run both Disruption Field and Sonic Dispersion all the time, and Sonic Repulsion never because the power is situational and costs more to run than Force Bubble and PFF combined, even before counting the additional endurance lost when something is actually repulsed. -
I'm a little confused about whether we're talking about the proliferation of the existing Dark Miasma set or the creation of a new Dark Control set.
IMO Dark Control isn't really needed. Dark Miasma is already more or less a control set, although more in a Trick Arrow-y or Radiation-y way than a Earth or Mind Control-y way, if you know what I mean. I don't think we need a Dark Control set for the same reason I don't think "Trick Arrow Control" is needed.
Sometimes I hear that Dark Miasma won't be proliferated to Controllers as a secondary because it would be "too powerful." I agree that it would be strong, but IMO not any worse than Radiation or Kinetics. Some people also say that it would be the death of Defenders, but IMO if the only thing making Defenders playable is a single powerset which they may or may not actually pick, the proper course of action is to fix Defenders, not deny Controllers the set.
I also hope the rumor about Electric Control being the next set is wrong. Mainly because I'm bored with the amount of Fire/Ice/Lightning/Earth around when there are other power sets missing in action that could make totally new types of characters possible, like Water, Air, Insect, Time, Light, Luck, Matter, Slime, Soul, or whatever else. I think the decision to go with Shields, Pain, Dual Pistols, and Demon Summoning adds twenty times to the game what shuffling existing power sources around would have done. -
Actually, Force Field is generally cheaper to run than Sonic. Here's a comparison power by power:
FF:
PFF - .26
Disbursion Bubble - .52
Repulsion Field - .78
Force Bubble - .69
Sonic:
Sonic Disbursion - .52
Sonic Repulsion - 1.04
Disruption Field - 1.04
I'm not sure what's so special about Sonic Repulsion that it costs more than either Repulsion Field or Repel (in the Kinetics set). I have honestly never actually even seen the power used, nor can I imagine ever using it at the price. I do use Repulsion Field on my FF Defender from time to time, though. -
Just wondering if anyone else feels the endurance costs of Sonic Resonance are a bit high for what the set actually brings to the table. The unmodified total cost of Sonic's 3 toggles is 2.6 endurance per second.
One these three powers is terribly skippable (Sonic Repulsion). Even if the power was useful, the fact that it costs 1.04 endurance per second combined with the 2.5% endurance hit you take everytime an enemy is repulsed more or less ensures you would never be able to use this.
Disruption Field, too, feels heavy to me. It's not useless but giving it the same endurance cost as Hot Feet or Arctic Air feels extreme to me. Arctic Air, for example, offers -recharge, -speed, +confusion, +fear, -stealth, and a radius 10 feet bigger than Disruption Field. Hot Feet offers direct damage, slow, and afraid. Both powers are also slottable with IOs. What is so special about Disruption Field that makes it cost so much? -
I just got off a team with 2 Tanks, a Force Fielder Defender, and Sonic Resonance Defender where a Blaster was able to die no less than 8 times in 2 missions, and take half the team with him on more than one occasion. There were multiple problems with that team, but I didnt know it was even possible for that kind of score.
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We know that all-Defender, all-Controller, all-Scrapper, and all-Blaster teams can be very successful. I am wonder about all-Tanker teams, though.
I have a reason for asking this question. It's not so much that I want to try a team of all Tankers. It's more about justifying teams where more than 2 members are Tankers. Any time I have been in this situation, the kill speed drops way, way low, and it becomes evident that dropping one of the tanks for ANY other archetype would be an effective switch.
I am not a Tanker player primarily. I have had one or two Tankers through the years. It's not because I don't like the AT but because I keep finding that it is the only AT that contributes very little to team success when more than 1 or 2 members are of that AT.
Thoughts? -
Cold is great. Here are some synergy highlights:
Mind - Lots of enemy-targetable powers in Cold means it still works well even without a pet. Arctic Fog lets you get closer to enemies without alerting them to your presence, granting more leverage to powers that don't notify enemies. Combined with Super Speed or a -perception IO, you will be totally invisible.
Gravity - You can't heal the Singularity, but you can cold shield it to prevent damage. Add to this that you can use Sleet as a knockdown zone and pair it with an AoE immob. Suddenly you've got containment, with knockdown, in a zone that causes -resistance and -defense. In a word, awesome. (Gravity has other issues that prevent me from recommending it unless you know what you're getting into, though.)
Ice - Two knockdown patches are always better than one. Ice's low damage benefits tremendously from Sleet at higher levels. Cold Shields on Jack help his survivability. Heat Loss offsets the endurance costs of Arctic Air. While there is no real damage, there is also no knockback, so all powers can be used on teams and Arctic Air can be fully leveraged.
Plant - Nothing but the obvious. Plant is great with anything.
Illusion - Hmm. A safer, more team oriented Illusion/Storm Controller with no knockback, perhaps? But there are touches of Radiation in /Cold that make me wonder if Illusion/Cold couldn't be a pretty decent boss killer. That said, there is no self heal and no +recharge here. Not a bad combo, but difficult for me to min/max.
Fire - Similar to Fire/Storm, but trading damage for safety. Heat Loss should help tremendously with Fire's heavy endurance costs. The imps benefit from the cold shields. Massive -resistance combined with Hot Feet could be really nasty. -
Another idea for Dimension Shift: make it the opposite of a knockback zone. I know the game engine lacks "reverse propel" mechanics, so this is how it would work.
Dimension Shift would summon an immoveable pseudo-pet that has two powers. "Dimensional Anchor" is an aura that latches on to enemies that get nearby (similar to the way Glue Arrow works). This tags the enemy as someone who has been in the zone of effect.
The pseudo pet's other power is "Mass Summon." This is a PBAoE (but on a pet) with a huge radius that works similar to Teleport Foe. The catch is that it only works on creatures tagged by "Dimensional Anchor" who are at least 20 feet away.
The end result is a power that constantly teleports enemies who get too far away from its center back into the zone of effect. -
Yes and no.
The heals and buffs of a /Emp Controller are weaker, but the leveraging of the primary makes the team survivable anyway. -
Hey all,
I'm pretty decent at choosing powers, but terrible at building for set bonuses. I'm hoping for some help with my favorite character, an Ice/Thermal/Fire controller.
Below is a list of current power choices. I think my most controversial decisions were not picking up Thaw and taking both Chillblain and Frostbite. I did this because of Ice's low damage, and a frequent need to choose between immobilizing a group to keep them in AA's radius, or a single target to keep everything flopping on Ice Slick.
The decision to go with Fire Mastery for the ancillary pool is due to concept reasons. I'd consider changing it to something else, but would like to stick with Fire if I can make it work.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 48 Science Controller
Primary Power Set: Ice Control
Secondary Power Set: Thermal Radiation
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Block of Ice -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Warmth -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Thermal Shield -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Frostbite -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Arctic Air -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Plasma Shield -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Ice Slick -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Stamina -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Cauterize -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Shiver -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Glacier -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Forge -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Chilblain -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Jack Frost -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Heat Exhaustion -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Melt Armor -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Fire Ball -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Fire Shield -- Empty(A)
Level 49: Consume -- Empty(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
My priorities for a new build are the following:
- Positional defense
- Recharge
Thanks for any help you can provide! -
"Most powerful" is subjective. But I would argue Super Speed is the best power when they are looked at in context.
The reason is that Fly is easily duplicated by jet packs. Super Speed is not duplicated. And if you can both super speed and fly, there is not a lot of need to teleport or super jump.
Super speed also comes with partial invisibility. And guess what. If you turn on Super Speed while you're flying with your jet pack, you are still concealed! Once you get IOs you can even use this to become completely invisible while flying. -
Yeah, but there is a secret about Force Field that is rarely discussed.
FF is by a huge margin the least slot-hungry power set in the game. My FF Defender expended so few slots on his primary powers (despite taking 8 of the 9 available powers) that he was able to six slot every single power in his secondary, and most of the tertiary, with no decrease in performance from the primary.
Force Field lets you add survivability to yourself and to the team, while directly increasing the value of your other powers by virtue of freeing up slots. This is to say nothing of the AoE mezz protection it offers, the turtle (and minus-aggro) defense in Personal Force Field, and the only direct AoE blast available in a support set (Repulsion Bomb).
The short of it is that Force Field is awesome, just not awesome in a way people expect. -
Quote:This sounds like less of an argument against Ice Control than against Controllers altogether. Plant may outdamage Ice, but Plant is outdamaged by... Defenders.
Damage is never superfluous. The more damage you have, the less control you need (one of the reasons ice control isn't popular). If you had enough damage to kill before their alpha, you wouldn't need control at all. -
What I mean when I say AA rarely pulls aggro is that compared to most other controls it has a pretty low aggro ratio. This is anecdotal, but I've always felt like like the real threats to me as ice troller were the enemies standing outside AAs radius. This is maybe because anything inside AA has already blown its attack on the tanker.
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I also have a Sonic/Dark Defender, who I created 2 days ago. So there are 2 of us out there at least.
My build is somewhat different than yours, but I wanted to add that you could maybe skip Clarity. Your big bubble already provides -hold, -immob, and -stun. Tactics provides -confuse and +perception. The only holes left are sleep and fear.
If you wanted to go ultra-Defendery, you could replace Tactics with Aid Other. This would give you a modest heal and the ability to break sleeps, if you want that. Or you could replace it with some other power.