Oedipus_Tex

I was thinking of respeccing to something like the powerlist below. I'm not sure how to slot it at all. It was just a start in a direction. I picked up the Medicine pool and I'm not sure if that's the direction to go, or if I should be looking at trying to get better Defense. Enudrance drain is such a huge issue with this character that adding any more toggles might make him unable to walk.

Edit: Forgot to add he will be probably be using Ninja Run in place of a travel power.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Merengue2: Level 48 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Resonance
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Char -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sonic Siphon -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Sonic Barrier -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Fire Cages -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Sonic Haven -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Flashfire -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Disruption Field -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Cinders -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Stamina -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Sonic Dispersion -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Hot Feet -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Aid Other -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Aid Self -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Resuscitate -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Fire Imps -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Clarity -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Liquefy -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Fire Ball -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Fire Shield -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Consume -- Empty(A)
Level 49: Rise of the Phoenix -- Empty(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment

In general, in my experience, the confusion in Arctic Air does not significantly increase your kill rate. Your results will vary depending on how many controls you lay on top of it and how much damage you/your team is throwing at the enemy.

I have played Plant, Mind, and Illusion, and their Confuse powers are much more reliable as damage sources. My Mind Controller, for example, can reliably go invisible and run to the end of "defeat boss" radio missions, and then confuse the crowd into defeating the end guy for me without them ever knowing I'm there. It's a parlor trick (except on some Task Forces), but it works.

That would probably never work with Ice. That said, there is a very good reason an Ice Controller would want a Confusion power. That reason is -Recharge.

The way -Recharge works is to multiply how long it takes for a power to to be useable again. If you've ever been hit by it, you know what a pain it is to deal with. Enemies probably feel the same way.

However, there's a hitch to -Recharge that seems obvious but is often overlooked. It only means something on a power that is recharging. If something is recharging, that means it got used. If an enemy is Confused at the moment it uses a power, it wastes the shot, and can't take another one until the power (slowly) recharges.

Now, what's interesting here is that Confusion on an Ice Controller is a gamble. In a best case scenario, 60-ish percent of the mob is confused. That means the other 40% of them are free to shoot at you. This encourages you to maximize their -Recharge, so they get fewer chances to shoot in your direction--but also lowers the damage they output on each other. In other words, typically Ice Controllers will be using Confusion as a release valve for -Recharge, instead of as extra damage. (Heavily IOed Ice Controllers with massive defenses may be an exception, since they can withstand the hail of gunfire).

Compare this with a Mind/Cold Controller. Like an Ice Controller, the /Cold can heavily impede an enemy's recharge rate. However, because the Confusion in Mind is reliable and long lasting, she is less likely to want to hinder the foes' recharge rate after the Confuse lands.

To get back to the Plant Control/Ice Control duo. I think that AA is a power you will not regret. Plant is heavy on -Knockdown powers that will cancel your Ice Slicks. That sucks. But Plant also has a mag 3 AoE Confusion power that stacks with Arctic Air to confuse even bosses in the area. By the time you are both level 50 there shouldn't be an enemy within a mile who isn't Confused. And you won't need to be concerned about losing XP, because the damage from Plant will be substantial, and the -Recharge you provide will greatly hinder enemy's ability to shoot both you and each other.

Hey guys, it's me. And I've got a problem.

I have a level 37 Fire/Sonic Controller who I feel is not living up to his potential. Part of it is player error I'm sure. But a lot of it is that I have no idea how to play a Fire/ troller, nor build for it.

My main problem is endurance. I run on teams of 8. With Hot Feet, Dispersion Bubble, and Disruption Field running, my endurance bar is really mad at me. Refreshing shields on everyone is seriously taxing and sometimes causes me to actually detoggle.

Also, the lack of a heal is really, really noticeable on this character. The imps take tons of damage, and I get hit frequently as well. Sonic's shields are okay, but force fields they are not.

I'm pretty much directionless at this point, and looking to all of you, the Controller community, for ideas on how to spec this character. I'm not expecting Fire/Kin levels of effectiveness, but I'd like something that offers maximum playability but actually stays alive while retaining the blue bar. I'm thinking of picking the Fire APP specifically to get Consume to help along these lines, but am open to any suggestions you might have.

I can agree to disagree. This all boils down to how effective you think AA is. To me, it's the centerpiece in a power set that lacks significant damage and has only one other good AoE control that is up every fight. The "synergy" is that it is a good control power. We are Controllers. It does not need to be more complicated than that.

I do, however, think it's ironic that we are talking so much about synergy in a powerset that inherently has very little with *itself*. Frostbite conflicts with Ice Slick and both conflict with Flash Freeze. Shiver's cone conflicts with AAs and Glacier's PBAoE. Additionally, Ice Slick's conflict with what Fire and Plant Controllers bring is well noted, and has reduced more than one Ice Controller to a wallflower. We regularly see people advised to not play Ice Controllers at all, and to roll an /Ice Blaster, who can nearly match Ice's -Recharge and single target hold game while bringing tons more damage with no conflicts within itself or with other player's sets.

As far as me being an AA snob, I'll cop to it. But then I think every player in this game has certain powers they feel are critical to a powerset. Look at Force Field. If you had a choice between a Mind/FF with Deflective Shield and one without (he "didn't have a pet, so there was no synergy") who would you pick? What about a FF/Ice who skipped Dispersion Bubble because she would rather hover above the battle and that doesn't synergize with her strategy, and none of her other powers require her to melee (que AA)? What about a Kinetic who skips Fulcrum Shift, or a Plant Controller without Seeds of Confusion, or a Storm without Freezing Rain? Your threshold may vary, but I doubt we'll find many people to argue that they are totally relativistic about power selections.

I've long wondered about the actual effect -Recharge has on enemies. I decided to run some numbers in Excel. It's possible I've made some math errors, so please don't take any of this as gospel. If anyone notices any errors please feel free to point them out!

There are a few key things to make clear before we begin.
1) The maximum -Recharge effect that can be applied to an enemy is -75%.
2) Because of the Purple Patch, enemies that are a higher level than you resist a portion of the base effect listed in the power description.

Here's the effect table for the Purple Patch, showing the decreasing effectiveness of powers as enemies become higher level than the player.

Lvl Effectiveness
+0 100%
+1 90%
+2 80%
+3 65%
+4 48%

In other words, an enemy that is the same level as you receives 100% of a debuff. An enemy 4 levels higher than you receives 48% of a debuff.

The table below shows the results of applying the -Recharge debuff to enemies that are +0, +1, +2, +3, and +4 to the player. The first number shown is the Recharge penalty as a percentage. The number in parentheses represents the actual end effect: how much longer it takes for a power to recharge versus the normal time (e.g. if the number listed is x4, it takes 4 times as long to recharge as normal, so a power that normally takes 5 seconds to recharge now takes 5 x 4 = 20 seconds). I ran the numbers for each power that has a Recharge debuff, and also for some possible combinations of powers.



What's immediately noticeable to me on the table is the huge lead Shiver has on Arctic Air when enemies are close to the same level as a player. However, when enemies are higher level than the player, the lead shrinks considerably, with neither power coming close to the maximum debuff value. When the two powers are *combined*, however, the values skyrocket back to the maximum values. A combo of AA + Shiver would experience about 40% fewer attacks than Shiver or AA alone (based only on recharge debuffs and ignoring any mezz effects in AA). I didn't run the numbers for Shiver + AA + Frostbite, but they should be even better.

The main thing I am taking from this experiment is that Recharge debuffs cascade. The difference between 70% debuffed and 75% debuffed is huge. It's worth debuffing critters to the maximum negative value possible, because the last few points of -Recharge go much further than the first few points. However, when you are fighting enemies close to you in level, you can assume that Shiver will take care of the Recharge side entirely, if it hits and again ignoring the extra perks of the other powers in the set.

Consider making a Force Field/Ice Defender. That combo will simply require you to shield people, drop rain powers when you can, and allow you to spend the rest of your time plinking and holding enemies if you want. The bonus is that Ice's two rain powers (a standard AoE and a nuke) get Blaster level modifiers. You can use the standard rain about once per fight, and the nuke every 4 or 5 fights. The nuke will make you drop your big bubble, but it does so much damage that no one will care--just make sure you've refreshed everyone's bubbles before going for the shot.

I have a couple of contenders. Some of these never made it further than level 5. I just thought they were humorous, and also possibly unfit for a MMO intended for kids.


Ann Colder. A Cold/Assault Rifle Corruptor. She was a lawyer on the Paula Jones case who later became infamous as a TV pundit and best selling author. Few knew that the secret of her success was cutting a deal with Baal in the third circle of Hell (New Jersey). She later accused the demon of being unpatriotic, so he cursed her with powers to fit her personality.


Grey Agenda. A Thug/Dark Mastermind with the dark powers colored grey. Growing up, Grey Bryant knew he was different from the other boys. For one thing, he was completely grey. For years he endured abuse from those who called him unnatural, before hatching a nefarious scheme to find others and make them grey as well.


Necronomicarn. A Necro/Storm Mastermind. Cletus McClintock was a mechanic on a traveling carnival. One night while he was fixing the ferris wheel, a strange storm passed through. It turned out the ride had been assembled on top of the secret burial place of the ancient Necronomicon, and a virgin aboard one of the cars had said the magic words ("Wee!")! The ride was struck by lightning, killing everyone on board except the now-super-powered Cletus, who presses the riders into service as members of the carnie undead.

Thanks for your comments. Here's a rambling reply.

The synergy between Empathy and AA is that both have the same end goal, which is making sure no one gets splattered. Since your character has to stand somewhere, you might as well make it somewhere useful. Empathy may not have a powerful argument to stand near enemies, but Ice Control surely does.

The synergy between Ice and Force Field is that you can build off of Dispersion Bubble to make yourself an invincible, mezzing snow globe. Yes, you can still be slept. Yes, some of the FF powers kind of suck. They kind of suck for FF Defenders too. What doesn't suck is the huge personal and team survivability boost FF buys you with minimal slotting. If someone's going to jump into a pack of enemies it might as well be someone with Tanker level resistance to the big 3 mezzes and the option to IO herself to untouchable levels.

One thing that for sure should go into any upcoming guides to Ice Control is to remind people that just because AA is a toggle it does not mean that:
1) You have to leave it on ALL the time
2) That you have to be able to use it in every single situation or else it is useless
3) That you can't still be mobile, and pull back if things get too rough or (especially) need to back out for a second to fire Shiver back into the crowd

I'm excited that someone is writing a new guide.

For kicks I just rolled a new Ice/Radiation troller and took him through the sewers. I picked up Arctic Air at level 6 and by level 10 had 5 slots in it, all endurance reduction.

The result? First, people asking "who keeps confusing the mobs?" And then one of the tankers got upset because he said I was outtanking him. I was easily keeping one half to one third of the mob confused. Added on top of the slow and on top of the fear effect I'm quite sure this is the most effective level 10 Controller possible.

That's not good enough? Well I'm now reasonably certain AA also auto-interupts interuptible powers. Those exploding Vazhilok zombies would run into range, start their animation, stand up again, start again, etc. I will need to test this some more to see if its true.

BTW, Ice/FF and Ice/Sonic have considerable synergy as both of them patch Ice's major weakness, which is getting mezzed. If you could solve Sonic's endurance issues and find a way to self heal, it would be a great pairing. Force Field is great with anything, but especially with Ice, because the FF has very low slotting requirements, which allows you to 6 slot everything else with no loss in effectiveness.

RE: Ice as a heavy damage powerset at higher levels.

I agree in theory. Ice can deliver a heck of a punch once it reaches maturity.

Ice does have a challenge though. It has to endure significant amounts of return fire in order to use AA as a damage power. The confuse in AA is not reliable, and there is no way to ensure bosses in the stack are taken care of (not an issue on lt-only farms). This means that Ice normally has to combine AA with Ice Slick and (when enemies are a few levels higher than you) Shiver in order to survive the coming onslaught. Achieving containment cancels the knockdown effect, making it a gamble.

In controlled circumstances, though, where the character is built for farming a very specific type of enemy, it could work well. Particularly I am thinking of Ice/Cold/Fire. The -Resistance in Sleet would increase damage, the AoE immob would keep them from falling, the cold shields would protect the pet, and between Consume and Heat Loss your endurance bar should be overflowing. A total jackpot would be finding an enemy that does s/l damage and has natural recharge resistance. That may be quite a challenge. Ice/Kinetics would also be monsterous, as you said.

Thanks for the comments guys. I have a few assorted replies below.

Well if we have to go electric I'm hoping endurance drain isn't the big secondary effect. End drain is hard for player characters to deal with when its used on them, and yet does very little to enemy PCs, because their life expectancy is too short. Maybe Elec Control will be different.

I want more interaction with the NPC citizens of Paragon and RI.

I don't know if anyone remembers a game called Freedom Force from several years ago, but it was single player superhero RPG. One of my favorite things about that game is that during your missions, citizens really needed your protection. Enemies would sometimes attack them, and they could get hit by AoEs (yours and the enemies), falling buildings, and exploding objects. Your job as a superhero was to complete the mission while making sure as many citizens as possible were unharmed.

It had a profound effect on game strategy. There would be situations where an enemy group would come running down a crowded street, shooting at you as they come. You had to decide whether it was safe to throw a fireball in there.

With CoH Villains at the very least I think NPCs on the street should run from us. It always stretches credulity to me that they will run from a level 1 thug but quietly wave hello to a party of 8 evil Masterminds surrounded by their zombie and ninja friends.

minor grumble.

Well it will be great to get a new control set. But in my heart I was hoping for something other than Electric. It's not that I hate the idea, it's that I feel like the Electric concept has already been done to death. We already have a blast, a brawl, an armor, a manipulation, and an assault set. Meanwhile we lack Water altogether (IMO Ice does not replace it concept-wise), the closest thing to Wind/Air is Storm (which focuses largely on... ice and electricity), and nothing really fits well for Insects.

Yes, I'm being childish and looking a gift horse in the mouth. I just hope getting an Electric set doesn't mean we won't get something truly original in the future. It's been 5 years and the only Control set added since launch has been Plant. IMO Plant added 10 times to the game what an Electric set would have. Oh well, I will play it and enjoy it regardless.

Oh I almost forgot.

I think most of us can agree that AA is too awesome to skip.

And it's sad, because since I posted this I have grouped with 4 different Ice trollers, and NONE of them have had AA. Makes me cry.

P.S. - Should you happen to read this, Mr. Ice/Storm Troller who was in my group a few days ago, I didn't have the heart to tell you that you probably want to rethink your build. Taking 02 Burst and 3 powers out of the Medicine pool does not make up for skipping Arctic Air and Freezing Rain. You need more out of life than Block of Ice and Ice Slick. Your character is running at about 1/4th of his possible efficiency. Our group was taking hits and we should have been mopping the floor. I just didnt want to be rude and call you out after our first near wipe.

I actually don't think AA is overpowered with the CC proc. I don't know how the math works, but my level 50 Ice troller has had the proc for months and it's definitely not the case that whole spawns gets hit with the contagion.

The reason I think this is that prior to i16, you could see which enemies were hit with the proc because they would get the purple bubbles, and those confused by Arctic Air itself would not. With a group of around 10 enemies inside AAs radius, it was rare to see more than 3 or 4 enemies with purple dots, and even that didn't happen altogether often. It was especially noticeable back then, too, because when the proc went off it could hit your pet. Jack didnt stay perma-confused (that would have sucked!) Instead he would get hit about once every 10 minutes and give me the scare of a lifetime.

Is it possible that the proc is tied not to the AA radius but to the confusion element? AA's slow and -recharge are auto-hit, but the confusion and afraid components are not. I always used to be under the impression that the proc could only fire if something got tagged by a confusion effect, but I could be mistaken.

In any case, as great as the proc is in Arctic Air, I don't think there's a power in the game (well, except Fulcrum Shift) that pushes the overpowered envelope as much as Seeds of Confusion. Arctic Air is a great power, but Seeds is pornographic. Not to hate on Plant too much, but to me Ice is a much more difficult set to play than Plant, and it almost entirely comes down to the "win" button that is Seeds.

I just never could get used to the recharge on Empathy's top tier powers. 300 second recharge on a 90 second power is an eternity, even after you train it down.

I agree that the purple dots are making AA much more obviously powerful. I find it very helpful in helping me identify which enemies need mezzing.

Issue 16 dramatically increased AA's power in 3 ways:
- You can now see the purple dots
- Contagious Confusion no longer hits your pet
- If you want you can now pick up World of Confusion from the Mind APP for ridiculous levels of mezz stacking. This power pretty much sucks for most other Controllers, but if anyone is ok with being 8ft away from enemies, it's an Ice troller.

As if you need more convincing that this power is awesome, try watching Combat window some time to see what its doing to enemies. Jump into a spawn of around 5 enemies and watch as the mezzes fly up the window. Now picture what AA would seem like if all those Afraid effects had an animation too.