Oedipus_Tex
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If your main criteria for going Force Field is caring for a pet, you should go Mastermind. A Robots/Force Field Mastermind can solo archvillians while AFK.
But then I'm not that impressed. There isn't a single /FF or FF/ combo I can come up with that is bad enough I'd tell people to not play it, or so incredibly good it eclipses all other possibilities. -
Since you don't appear to be actually responding to me so much as quoting my posts while making counter claims to statements I didn't actually make, I'm going to discontinue posting. I will leave it at this: you say Mind/FF sucks and is wasteful to play. I say you are wrong. Have a nice day. And please consider word choice before you call someone's argument "disingenuous" because it implies that they are deliberately lying.
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There are a number of different build directions to focus on, as others said. In general, most "build directions" head for one or more of these:
- Ranged Defense
- AoE Defense
- Melee Defense
- Smash/Lethal Defense (especially for farmers)
- Endurance Recovery
- Accuracy
- Health Regeneration
- Max HP
- Max Endurance
- Damage Buff
Other components that can be picked up but are more rarely the "direction" of a build include:
- Mez Resist
- Mez Enhancers
- Run/Fly/Jump Speed
- Fire, Energy, Cold, Negative, Toxic or Psionic Defense
- Damage Resistance (I think)
Knockback Protection and Stealth are special cases. A lot of builds will incorporate one or two enhancements to achieve them but there isn't anyway to base a whole build off of it. -
Quote:I don't doubt you, but I was responding to the statement that I quoted ("If you NEED the control from Mind while playing /FF you're doing something very very wrong.") Your response is specific to a Fire Controller, as a Mind Controller can't take Smoke. I'm not a very good reader, so I may have missed something. But I assume the reason we've gone in this direction is related to your original statement that Fire/FF is better than Mind/FF on account of Mind not having a pet.
The previously mentioned Fire/FF can provide 45.55% to the team and imps by using 3 level 50 defense IOs in Deflection, Manuvers, and Grant Invis, 3 level 50 Acc debuff in Smoke, and 3 Enzymes in Dispersion.
If the members of the team have as little as 3% defense from say a Steadfast res/def, a light fairy pet (who will also be soft capped), even slotted up combat jumping, or from set bonuses from some el cheapos, you would be able to dispense with Grant Invis. Not at all difficult to find even in some sparkly new players.
Repulsion bomb can completely mitigate the Alpha attack. Force bolt can effectively mitgate the damage from a single tough target as can Detention Field. That's without even applying a single control from the primary.
I'm well aware of the numbers simply from having several FF/ defenders and /FF controllers and using them for the purposes described.
I have to say I don't understand your position there. The reason is that you stated that you also play a Force Field Defender. Why is it an issue that the Mind Controller has no pet and not the Defender? Shouldn't it be less of an issue, since the shields in /FF actually provide less value than they would to a Defender? -
Well count this customer satisfied.
I love, love, love, love, love Ninja Run. I did see some clipping here and there, but I can't think of a 3-D game with the kind of customization we have here that didn't have clipping. Ninja or not, seeing characters flip from roof top to roof top adds a ton to look and feel of this game.
My only complaint, of sorts, is that Ninja Run isn't a regular power we have to spend a power choice on and can slot up. What an awesome ability this would be if we could train down its endurance cost and it gave a slight bonus to stealth and attack. It looks plain incredible during melee fights, and I even use it to add flourish to my Ice troller when he jumps into melee. -
I don't hate knockback. I love it. It's a great mechanic and is part of what makes CoH fights so insane.
The problem I have with it is that tactic-ly, it doesn't have enough purpose. Throwing an enemy backwards looks cool, but just moving them from point to point B rarely gets much done. It can, occasionally. That's a good argument to have 1 or 2 knockback powers. But not enough of one for what's going on with Storm, for example.
Knockback would tacticly useful if (pick some):
- Some enemies derived a *benefit* from being close to each other, and the players needed to keep them apart.
- Knockback lowered defenses/resistance during/after the flight
- Knockback triggered Controller Containment
- Enemies that fall a long distance because of a knockback took major damage for the "uncontrolled fall"
- Enemies that hit an obstacle while being knocked back take damage as if they fell the same distance (this is an old rule used in many table top games to handle "wind" type powers)
- Foes could be knocked into obstacles on the map. (Is there a superhero movie somewhere where the villain *doesn't* get knocked into a vat of acid?)
- Enemies suffered -Range for several seconds after standing back up, so that they *have* to run back at you, instead of standing back up and shooting you with their superior range
- Powers (maybe in an Optional Power Pool) were available that gave enemies resistance to knockback, but not defense, so that they fall over instead of fly (e.g. some kind of garrote trick where you trap their legs and they trip rather than fly backward). Put it in a Power Pack and we'll pay you ten bucks for it. Hah. -
Sorry for so many multiple replies. Something just occured to me.
If you want to capitalize on /Dark Blast stacking, skip Force Field in favor of Traps. The big bubble in traps actually provides better Defense than Dispersion Bubble does (13.3% base vs 10.0% base), and the -ToHit in the blasts isn't wasted if you decide to do radio missions. I'm not saying Traps > Force Field in all situations, but in this very specific one it probably would be. -
Quote:I have to question this, because I am one of those kinds of people.
If you NEED the control from Mind while playing /FF you're doing something very very wrong. 
For now, I'm speaking independently of raids.
Looking at the numbers in /FF for Controllers, assuming the powers in play are Dispersion, Deflection, and Manuevers and all 3 are triple loaded for Defense I get 17.8 + 11.9 + 4.16 = 33.86 Defense. Significant, but still about 11 points from the cap. A team with those numbers would have a 17%-ish chance to get hit per attack by a low level enemy. If we're talking about a lvl 50 Blaster, and assume there are two bosses around able to do 610 damage each in one shot, the Blaster has an 8.5% chance of dying instantly upon encountering them. This is far better than the base 25% chance of instant death, but still significant enough to warrant additional support. Controls help here by reducing the number of enemies that can fire, causing fewer die rolls and less chance of death.
[BTW, a Force Field Defender with the same numbers reduces the number of attacks down to 5% (23.8 + 5.55 + 15.8 = 45.15), for a three fold increase in protection. The Blaster in this situation dies in 2.5% of cases.]
The idea of combining FF/Dark on a Defender is genius, though, for a character who will only be doing raids. That character would also be a great soloist. It's super overkill for most PUGs, since the Defender can already cap defense off the bat.
And Plant Control is great. Like Fire it's significantly different than Mind Control. I wouldn't pass up Mind Control just because you feel not having a pet is wasteful though. If you did that it means Mind would pair with only 4 other sets (Storm, Radiation, Kinetics, Trick Arrow) on account of "wasting" buffs. -
Quote:For mothership raids specifically, I would narrowly put Force Field Controllers ahead of Defenders.
But if going Mind/FF will mean that my time on the mothership wont be good enough then maybe i should go for FF/arch with better protection and a crashless nuke.
The reason is that, in my experience, the main need for Dispersion Bubble is the AoE anti-mezz, not the Defense, which is likely to be abundant. Mind Control would let you provide that while retaining the ability to snipe controls at the enemy without drawing aggro. The last thing you want on one of those raids is the anti-mezzer to die. I would definitely not encourage you to try nuking an enemy when you are the one keeping the rest of the group alive.
A Robots/Force Field or Robots/Traps Mastermind is a third option. You could put the pets on Defensive and enjoy massive protection while your shield benefits your team.
Traps Defenders also have AoE anti-mezz protection you may want to explore. It's a pet, but recharges quickly. Unfortunately we can't do a Mind/Traps Controller just yet, but here's hoping. -
BTW, wanted to add that if you do decide to go with Mind/, you could try out the new-ish Cold Domination set. It doesn't have the AoE anti-mezz protection, but it does have shields, some limited personal protection, really good boss-busting powers, a ton of -resistance, and some endurance recovery abilities. If you combine it with Super Speed you can even go invisible and beat Illusion at the mezz-from-the-shadows game.
I have actually used my Mind/Cold to win Task Force rescue missions by super speeding to the end, confusing the mob so that they kill each other, then walking back to the entrance with the hostage in tow, sleeping or confusing each group as we stroll past. The enemy never even has to know you're there. -
Quote:I agree that Fire/FF is an effective combo, but it is a totally different kind of character than a Mind/FF.
Try a Fire/FF. You get 3 pets to buff, Dispersion Bubble + Smoke provides you with decent defenses so that you can stay in melee range, and Dispersion also bounces most mezzes that Hot Feet stays toggled on.
Fire/FF comes close to playing like a blended Corruptor/Mastermind. You have a sea of pets to take care of, good soloability, decent damage, and buffs for the team. However you give up substantial control for this option.
Mind/FF adds less damage but more safety. It has no pets to buff but Mind doesn't need them; in fact they'd mostly just get in the way of stealth tactics. Mind's single target Confuse can be trained up to lasting over a full minute on a same-level enemy, and you can stack it on bosses before the fight even starts. Mind Control is, IMO, the safest type of Controller, especially after getting Mass Confusion at level 32.
Definitely not knocking Fire/FF, but it's a completely different kind of character than Mind/FF. -
The differences between /FF and FF/ are pretty substantial.
A FF Defender can almost be thought of as a Tanker who, instead of drawing aggro to himself, spreads it among the team. Damage hovers in the low-ish range, but team survivability is extremely high. When leading radio missions, recruiting a Force Field Defender is, for me, a total jackpot because it means I can increase the mission difficulty by at least +1. However, you should note that having TWO Force Field Defenders on a team is rarely optimal.
In terms of play style, most FF Defenders play like Blasters-lite who tag along just behind the rest of the team, careful to avoid aggro (because they are the keystone holding things together). When survivability is a sure bet, this Defender can also unleash nukes. While Force Fields don't directly increase team damage, what they do do is increase the confidence of Blasters (in particular) to let loose completely. With a competent team this can be game-changing. With an incompetent one it frequently means the difference between success and a wipe.
A /FF Controller plays more aggressively. The shields, on their own, are not strong enough to provide the near-invulnerability the Defender brings. What they do is provide a buffer for situations where controls fail to halt an enemy. Also, having two Force Field Controllers on the same team adds up to around the same protection that a single FF Defender would bring. Avoiding aggro is also usually not as much of a concern for the Controller as it is for the Defender, as you are not the keystone to team defense, and what aggro you do pull can somewhat be managed with mezzes.
Both sets require you to take on the mindset that you will constantly be refreshing bubbles. It is far more critical with the Defender. Some people use timers; I just periodically re-cast as we are running to the next fight and towards the end of a fight when the other team members are cleaning up the last remaining enemies.
As for Mind/FF specifically, I think it can be an extremely powerful combo, solo or on a team (but especially on a team). Mezz protection is a coveted attribute. Once it gets its 4 core AoE mezzes (Mass Hypnosis, Total Dom, Terrify, Mass Confusion) Mind is such a scary-ily masterful Controller that it puts many other sets to shame. Mind also has an option to go low-key, with three non-aggro drawing powers that allow you to get the drop on enemies. -
[edit: hit respond Save button too early. here is the rest of the post]
Quote:Harsh.Originally Posted by Leo_G
Learn to separate fact from opinion.
Like backing up? Of course, if you're a melee character, this is also time you have to spend *chasing the enemy back down.* Maybe you're imagining a scenario where you can knock the enemy off a building, but the time it takes to run back to you is negligible in most cases because of the high mobility PCs have in this game.Quote:I'd be curious to know how KD will mitigate a foe by causing the enemy to waste time getting up to run back to you.
Repel, for one, although even that is not super popular. The ability to move an enemy is why I called knockback "marginally useful." It is sometimes useful in the same way that Intangibility is. But the fact that it can be useful sometimes doesn't encourage me to use it. I want to use it. It's fun. But it's detrimental a lot of the time, and I have the fun of 7 other people to worry about too.Quote:And what option do you have when you want to move NPC A to point B? -
Quote:I think if the only thinking and planning going on in this game revolves around knockback we have way bigger problems.
I'll own up once the anti-KB side owns up to wanting a dumbed down AI game where all you have to do is click attacks and then run to the next target as oppose to actually needing to *think* or *plan*. Sure, KB doesn't provide that but it certainly mixes things up a bit and for a game, that's a *good thing*.
Meanwhile, knockback continues to be an ambiguous benefit at best. Minimizing how far enemies are flung actually becomes easier when the enemy is higher level than you. I don't think there's another status effect or debuff that nine times out of ten we're glad to have resisted.
That said, I do think knockback is fun. I don't think its practical. There is very little benefit in flinging an enemy across greater and greater distances when knocking them down achieves the same benefit. At best, knockback is a marginally useful but cool looking niche ability that achieves modest results when used well and has the capacity to seriously impede a team's performance when used poorly. In many of the powers it appears in, it seems more like a penalty to prevent the power from being spammed than an actual benefit. -
What about the Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge proc? If you slot it in a Tornado, does it effect the pet or the caster when it procs. If it's the caster than that might not be a bad proc to take.
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Quote:Again we are saying the same thing. It's a side line to the larger point, but the difference between saying "Fire has no secondary effect, so it does more damage" and "Fire's secondary effect is more damage" is a matter of syntax. The larger point stands--if Energy Blast did not have Knockback as a secondary effect, it would have a different secondary effect or do more damage.
Fire doesn't do more damage because it has no secondary effect. It actually does exactly the same amount of *base* damage based on recharge as every other set. Its just that its secondary effect *is* damage - specifically DoT. And in an exception-that-proves-the-rule situation, Fire is not required to pay for any of its DoT damage in endurance or recharge costs - because its considered a secondary effect.
Regardless, it doesn't answer the problem of whether Knockback is a bonus or a penalty. Fire out damages Energy on the basis that Energy supposedly has an edge with knockback. How you feel about the balance of that is derived entirely from how you feel about knockback. I personally feel that knockback is a shadow of the other debuff and mezz powers, in particular taking a backseat to knockup and knockdown, which can also hit bosses and the like but without the disruptions knockback is notorious for. -
Quote:I thought Fire did more damage on the basis of the fact that it has no secondary effect.
Not really. Energy Blast's attacks have the damage that their recharge dictates. No more, no less. Its secondary effect is not in any way considered in that computation. -
Quote:I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. Energy Blast does less damage than it otherwise would, because it has a secondary effect. What we're debating is the worth of that secondary effect. The fact that some of the knockback powers were later changed to knockdown kind of tips us off some.
the reduced damage thing is not true, blaster damage numbers are pretty much standardized based on recharge for ST blasts and a mix of recharge and size for AoEs. There are some exceptions mostly for attacks that don't have a secondary effect and so get more damage to compensate (primarily Fire).
I don't think that knockback needs to debuff the enemies it moves. Knockback is already providing a bonus in terms of damage mitigation and in many ways is a very powerful form of mitigation, it simply requires more care in it's application than many other powers. I don't see how this is a bad thing, it just means that people who want to have to think about where to stand and what to target have a set to play with and those who just want to stand in place and pew pew the enemies can play other sets.
Knockback as a damage mitigation tool is, IMO, overstated. It achieves little that knockdown or knockup wouldn't. It can be somewhat useful for knocking enemies back into damage/control zones. We can debate that point back and forth, but its a fact that even the knockback supporters on this thread have primarily focused on how to minimize its effects. That's what I mean when I talk about the ambiguity of knockback; it's unclear whether its a bonus or a penalty. Many, many teams view at as a penalty.
I have a character that can achieve a Mag 50 knockback. I'm not sure why I would ever do this. I can tell you if I could achieve Mag 50 hold, I'd be all over it, even if it lasted for 1/4th the time that knockback does. -
I was actually headed to the boards to start a related discussion about knockback and the central problem I see with it.
Is knockback a penalty or a bonus? The answer is completely ambiguous. As soon as we start saying "yeah, it's great as long as you work around it" you've introduced the idea that, in reality, knockback is an obstacle to be overcome rather than a bonus effect. Energy Blast, for example, has lower damage numbers than it might otherwise because of knockback, and yet an Energy Blaster on a team spends more time trying to *avoid* the effect than employ it.
So that leads me to some questions. If it's a bonus, why does knockback cause so many disruptions? If it's a penalty, why let us slot for it and why does the purple patch affect it so much? So many weird situations are created because the game is undecided.
Did you know, for example, that one way to control your knockback is to fight higher level enemies so that the effects are deliberately scaled back? The idea of the purple patch is that its supposed to make you less effective against a higher level foe, but with knockback it frequently does the opposite. Can you name another status effect or debuff that people intentionally try to cancel out? ("Afraid," maybe, except that in all powers except the two Controller PBAoE toggles it clearly appears to be a penalty and a way to tell the mobs AI to exit an area).
I think knockback looks really cool and don't want to see it go. But I also think it needs to be made much more obvious that it is a bonus. The act of translocating an enemy by itself is actually more disruptive than just knocking them down (see knockdown and knockup, neither of which enjoy knockback's nefarious reputation).
IMO, what needs to happen is that during and after a knockback the enemy have a penalty of some kind, such as -defense, -resistance, or whatever else. Perhaps have the effect linger for a time after they stand up. It would certainly help move knockback toward being an unambiguous bonus. I wouldn't even necessarily mind all the crazy AoE knockback explosions if there were some point to them; in fact I think the game needs more of that kind of thing. -
There is another difference between these two powers. Repulsion Field is relatively team friendly (unless you go psycho and run around the field knocking stuff everywhere). It's especially good for a character with capped Ranged defense--which, as a FF'er, is easily within reach. The idea is that it is another layer of protection in case your efforts to stay at range fail.
Force Bubble is something else altogether. It has its uses but its likely to tick a lot of teams off. It's also a good way to aggro every group on the map all at the same time. Maybe not an issue for a MM, but a huge one for Controllers and Defenders. -
Me: Necronomicarn
Zombies: Bearded Lady, Frog Boy, Elephant Girl
Knights: Strong Man, Sword Swallower
Lich: Ringmaster
Ghost: Ticket Taker -
Makes me think of a Shield/Elec tanker. Like someone mentioned "Blitz" means lightning in German and came into the English language as part of the term "blitzkrieg," i.e. to charge into battle head on. A Shield/Elec tanker would literally charge into battle with Shield Charge or Lightning Rod.
If you want to create a signature move, maybe take Hover and use Shield Charge or Lightning Rod from above. This will make it look like you are swooping down from above, like a hawk does. It could be pretty epic looking. -
Was just glancing over the last build I posted and realized I borked the slotting of Mental Blast. It needs one more slot from the Decimation set to get the +recharge benefit.
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The sonic rezz bubbles. Also, brightly colored Ice Slicks on white floors turn your monitor into a laser ray.
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Ok, I decided to go with what you posted and made some tweaks to it. I made the following suggested revisions (but feel free to make edits to them where you see fit):
- Changed to the Mind APP to get access to mezz protection in Indomitable Will
- Focused primarily on Recharge, with some extra Accuracy and Endurance Recovery thrown in
- Dropped Snow Storm for Shiver, to give you added safety in case you get mezzed and detoggled
- Dropped Recall Friend for Frostbite to give you something to use for AoE containment
- Got Psionic Tornado with a Force Feedback proc to add a chance for +Recharge
- If you want to spend mega bucks later, you can add purples to Mental Blast
Here's the build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Polar Zero Redux: Level 50 Technology Controller
Primary Power Set: Ice Control
Secondary Power Set: Cold Domination
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Block of Ice -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold:30(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg:30(3), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:30(3), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold:30(5), Lock-%Hold:50(5), Lock-Acc/Hold:50(33)
Level 1: Infrigidate -- ShldBrk-Acc/Rchg:30(A), Achilles-ResDeb%:20(7), ShldBrk-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg:30(11), ShldBrk-Acc/DefDeb:30(13), Acc-I:50(27)
Level 2: Chilblain -- Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(A), Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(7), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(9), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(9), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(11)
Level 4: Ice Shield -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(13)
Level 6: Arctic Air -- EndRdx-I:50(A), C'phny-Dam%:30(15), CoPers-Conf:50(15), CoPers-Conf%:50(17), Mlais-Dam%:50(17), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx:50(25)
Level 8: Shiver -- P'ngTtl-Acc/EndRdx:50(A), P'ngTtl-Acc/Slow:50(19), P'ngTtl-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow:50(21), P'ngTtl-Rng/Slow:50(25)
Level 10: Glacial Shield -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(19)
Level 12: Ice Slick -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(21)
Level 14: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I:50(A)
Level 18: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(42), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(23), P'Shift-End%:50(23)
Level 22: Arctic Fog -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(27), Aegis-ResDam:50(29), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), Ksmt-ToHit+:30(46)
Level 24: Super Speed -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 26: Glacier -- BasGaze-Acc/Rchg:30(A), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold:30(29), BasGaze-Acc/Hold:30(31), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:30(31), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:50(31), Lock-%Hold:50(33)
Level 28: Benumb -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(33), Acc-I:50(34), Acc-I:50(34)
Level 30: Frostbite -- TotHntr-Acc/Rchg:50(A), TotHntr-Acc/EndRdx:50(36), TotHntr-Acc/Immob/Rchg:50(46)
Level 32: Jack Frost -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg:50(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg:50(34), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(36), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg:50(36), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets):50(37)
Level 35: Sleet -- Achilles-ResDeb%:20(A), LdyGrey-DefDeb/EndRdx:50(37), LdyGrey-DefDeb/Rchg:50(37), LdyGrey-DefDeb/Rchg/EndRdx:50(39), LdyGrey-Rchg/EndRdx:50(39)
Level 38: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:50(40), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:50(42), Efficacy-EndMod:50(46)
Level 41: Mental Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(43), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(43), HO:Nucle(43), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(45)
Level 44: Mind Over Body -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), Aegis-ResDam:50(45), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(45)
Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- FrcFbk-Rechg%:50(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg:50(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Posi-Dam%:50(48), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx:50(50), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(50)
Level 49: Indomitable Will -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment