Oedipus_Tex

Sounds like you are looking for Illusion/Radiation. It's pretty cookie cutter, but there's a reason for it.

This reminds me of a debate a few months back about "healer" characters, in which some were claiming healing is never, ever desirable and a Trick Arrow Defender could outperform an Empath on a sewer run. Supposedly there is a "secret" method to running Trick Arrow that makes it extremely effective; if this is true I haven't seen it.

To give the set a quick once over of my own:

Entangling Arrow - Single target immob. Similar to a Controller power except weaker all around. Has lower magnitude (3 instead of 4), no damage, shorter immob time, and half the -Recharge of the similar Ice Control power, Chillblain. Essentially it is one half as good as a power most Controllers skip.

Flash Arrow - -6.52% to hit and a blind. If blinds caused 1/10th of the inconvenience in enemies they do in players, this would be fine. As it is, it's marginal.

Glue Arrow - A quick examination of AoE slows puts this one near the bottom in power. The -90% run speed is okay-ish, but -20% Recharge is too minimal to mean anything. It does recharge quickly, but because this is an anchor power the actual duration tends to be shorter than advertised. (The anchor thing may be a bug, because it has come and gone over time). Powers that blow this out of the water are Shiver (30 second faster recharge on a Controller, and, for reasons known only to game developers, 48 seconds faster on a Blaster) Quicksand (which adds an auto hit 25% defense penalty) and Snow Storm (45% more recharge penalty and more AoEs to stack it with).

Ice Arrow - A single target hold on 18 second recharge. It's... well it's actually the worst single target hold I can think of in a support set. Recharge is 8 seconds longer and animation almost a second longer than the Blaster power Freeze Ray, even if hold duration is 3 seconds or so longer. Recharge is also 2 seconds longer than Defender Petrifying Gaze.

Poison Gas Arrow - A 30% damage penalty. Decent but not game changing. The first AoE so far that has provided a real survivability boost.

Acid Arrow - We're at a level now where we competing against Speed Boost, Dispersion Bubble, Fortitude, Freezing Rain, and Fearsome Stare for a spot on a team, and we're toying with a power with an 8ft radius. The effects are ok, the AoE is awful, and the effects aren't dramatic enough to compete with single target monster powers like Benumb and Heat Exhaustion. Falls into approximately the same category as the lvl 1 Cold Domination power Infrigidate.

Disruption Arrow - The extra 20% damage is nice. Of course, our Dark Miasma friends have been getting 30% since level 1 with the superior Tar Patch, which also happens to offer slow powers. Not sure why this costs 14.6 endurance to Tar Patches 7; at least it recharges 30 seconds faster.

Oil Slick Arrow - We're finally getting to something good. Too bad about the 180 second recharge and the fact that knockdown patches get cancelled out by Controllers trying to get containment (see: reasons the Ice Controller went to the corner to cry).

EMP Arrow - Again you're playing Controller, except not as good. Great size at least.


What it all boils down to for me: with TA you're playing a character who is trying to be a Controller, and failing. Where Dark Miasma, Storm, and Traps manage to blend controls, buffs, and debuffs effectively, TA is forced to rely almost entirely on Oil Slick Arrow for a reliable advantage. You have no way to restore HP, no good single target debuffs, no recharge boosters, no mezz defense or protection, no reliable knockback for soloing, no team buffs of any kind, some of the lowest debuff values of any Defender, holds and slows weaker than an Ice Blaster, and mezzes weaker than a Controller that take an average of 30-50% longer to recharge.

The shorter answer is I agree TA could use a buff. Love the concept. Don't like the implementation.

It still seems strange to me that my Controllers so easily match Defender performance with buffs. I don't think the solution is to buff Defenders base values directly, but to alter how quickly the buffs come back and what they cost.

I play some Defenders and some Controllers, and I'm constantly struck by how Defender buffs and debuffs don't really seem that much better than the Controller's. Certainly not anywhere near the difference between Defender and Blaster damage.

What occurred to me is that even though Defender buffs are more powerful than Controller buffs, in the end it's more about the recharge and endurance cost than the net effect of a lot of buffs.

So my question is, would the Defender AT take a significant step forward if the base recharge and endurance cost for all powers in the primary was offset by the same values used to enhance buffs, but still be balanced? While I doubt it's likely to happen, with Going Rogue coming out soon this seems like a prime time to ask.

Ok, found the post. The Frostwork discussion is a subsection in the second message on the page.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=124926

I read a post once that gave a detailed explanation of how Frostworks actually works, and the conclusion it gave was that the power is extremely poor. I can't find the post now, and I'm unsure how accurate it was, but it has kept me away from Frostworks so far.

I have limited experience with Spirit Tree and all I can say is it didn't really impress me.

IMO on Plant/Cold I'd be looking to skip both, but if I were going to take one it would be Spirit Tree.

Obviously Power Boosts boosts mezzes, shields, and so on. But what about the following:

- Infrigidate
- Benumb
- Sleet
- Heat Loss

- Smoke

- Flash Arrow

- The -Defense/-Recharge/-Speed in Earth/Ice/Gravity powers

- Speed Boost
- Transference

- Forge
- Heat Exhaustion

- Fortitude
- Recovery Aura
- Regen Aura
- Adrenalin Boost

- Clear Mind/Thaw/etc


Just curious because I'm trying to figure out which sets it blends well with and which it doesn't.

I'd rather have Dark but Traps is high on my list.

Actually, I had totally forgotted about the -Regen in Benumb. That's funny, because I do have and use this power on my Mind/Cold.. guess I just never looked at it too closely.

That said, while I think the posted build would probably bring some AVs down, I still think Ill/Rad would have an easier time of it. Illusion Controllers are able to slot purely for Recharge because they never get attacked. With 31% Ranged Defense you are going to die, a lot, unless you bring lots of purples. The game is also going to be over instantly if you run into something that can mezz you.

IMO it all balances out though. Fire/Cold is much better at handling large groups than Ill/Rad is. Either one would be welcome in my team, but without knowing the makeup of the rest of the group and I'd slightly prefer Fire/Cold to Ill/Rad for the damage versus the AV killing gimmick.

It's possible but it's going to be hard.

I'm sure someone will object to me wording it this way, but the main reason Illusion/Rad peforms like it does owes to the gambit of an invincible pet + the recharge to make it perma or near-perma + the fact that most AVs are simply bags of HP.

Fire/Cold is a great combo. But it will struggle with AVs that an Ill/Rad could coast through, because Ill/Rad's pet is a tanker that can't die and most AVs are simply endurance tests that benefit greatly from -Regen. Fire Imps are going to die in two or three shots. You can IO yourself for defense but you'll have to give up recharge to do it.

In other words, Fire/Cold will do great on teams, great solo, but won't beat Ill/Rad against AVs because of how gimmicky AV fighting is. It's also the reason most people don't really care if people can solo an AV, because the ability to do so speaks more to the curious design of AVs than the actual power of the build.

Various replies.

I'm nitpicking but I'd argue Mind/TA is a competitor with Earth/TA for the most number of holds, depending on how you classify Confusion abilities. I tend to classify them as "reasons the mob is not shooting at me," and this elevates Mind Control in this category. Earth/TA is much better at locking enemies down in a specific location, and Mind/TA is much better at opening a fight on your own terms. I also think that the single target Confusion available to Mind (and Illusion) blows any other Controller sets' single target mezz abilities out of the water, in terms of both duration and net effect.

Either Ice or Earth works well. With Earth you'll find a fairly standard Controller with perhaps some slight extra emphasis on close action (because of the stacking between Choking Cloud and Volcanic Gasses.)

Ice/Rad is something else altogether. To me, it's the most extreme version of a melee-based Controller. I know someone said you can play this combo at range, but before you decide to do that, consider that Ice/Rad brings four player-based AoE powers to play with it:
- Arctic Air (pulsing slow/fear/confuse)
- Glacier (instant hold, 2 minute-ish recharge fully slotted)
- Choking Cloud (pulsing hold)
- EM Pulse (instant hold, 2 minute-ish recharge fully slotted)

In other words, an Ice/Rad loaded down with all 4 of these powers is a walking cloud of mezzes. It can heal itself, boost its Recharge rate, and lockdown just about anything. It's main weakness is getting mezzed, so the Mind APP's anti-mezz power is highly tempting.

In the end, I'd say Earth/Rad plays like a traditional Controller and Ice/Rad plays like something very weird. Ice's damage is pretty poor, and the pet dies a lot, but anything that gets near you is instantly out of the fight.


Special Note: I want to add that some people interpret "melee based" Control to mean literally standing so close to enemies that they can hit you with melee powers. This is generally not a good idea. Ice/Rad's Arctic Air power has a reach of 25 ft (the exact same radius as your heal), so its perfect for standing just behind melee folks and catching the things they are fighting at the edges.

If you slot Force Bolt up with 4 lvl 50 Knockback IOs you can hit mag 51.8 Knockback (3 IOs is 50.1), which may be enough to knock some AVs on their butts. I'm not sure I completely understand how knockback works, though.

I think I have heard that the equation is to first subtract magnitude, and if the result is zero or less, there is no knockdown. After resolving this, resistance is applied to determine how far the enemy flies. Looked at that way, it means ((51.8 - 50) *(1 - .9)) = .18, a successful knockdown. But I could be doing this all wrong.

[EDIT: Corrected math that dealt with resistance portion of the equation. Originally did math wrong and got a result of 1.62 as a result.]

A Control set based around constant movement. Perhaps something where several of your powers teleport you, and enemies at the start and end of your teleportation path get confused/dazed.

A melee attack set based around touches rather than punches or kicks. Essence drain or the like.

Insect Control.

A Gravity Blast set (picture the nuke!)

As it happens I'm available. I got snowed in a hotel in Virginia all day today. My global is @Puercospin.