Obsidian_Force2
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Posts
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Quote:No, I believe this is wrong. I believe the majority (correctly) believes there is only one way to do things "Best".Originally Posted by AlienOne
I happen to think "freedom of build expression" is the most important *flagship* I must "bear," mainly because the "majority" thinks that there is only *one* way to do things "right."
"Alien"
If you don't care whats best more power to you, but alot do. And (I believe) alot truely hate the faction of the Kheld community who seem bound and determined to make sure numbers are not run and if they are run that the numbers are disputed unless the numbers fall on their side.
The fact it is nearly impossible to prove one best way to do things because you can almost always say "Well what about this small difference in build or style?" to make a person run all the numbers all over again will not ever change the fact that given infinite time one best way will be found.
But beyond that it's rather easy to run numbers using reasonable builds to determine what provides the better results.
These results are not rendered invalid because you didn't play them as live or record them to be watched. They should be played live to further verify your results but in almost every case the numbers generated on paper will be close enough to what play will produce that saying "on paper isn't giving accurate results" is pure blind and obtuse determination to avoid anyone finding the best results.
There is a small segment of players who not only believe Kheldians should remain the "build it however you like it's all equal" AT, but also do their best to make sure Kheldians can never become focused AT/sets like fire/kin fire/rad and dozens of other "cookie cutter maxximized" builds that beginners can look up on the boards to have a 90% completed (and damn good) build with the last 10% for their personal taste.
The fact kheldians are more complex to build in no way logicaly means a "nearly perfect" build cannot be found it just means more time must be used finding it.
And I find this my biggest sticking point and one I will not let go of. -
your build isn't bad but I could spend alot of time explaining what i would change so instead I'm posting a build a friend asked me to do for her, it's also not what I would personaly do but she didn't like tanking much so I used less slots on dwarf than normal.
if you have any questions about why I did something feel free to ask as that will get you what you need to know.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
test ws: Level 50 Science Warshade
Primary Power Set: Umbral Blast
Secondary Power Set: Umbral Aura
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Shadow Bolt- (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
- (A) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
- (46) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance
- (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
- (11) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range
- (11) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance
- (13) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (45) Recharge Reduction IO
- (46) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (21) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (23) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (23) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
- (39) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (40) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (40) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
- (40) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
- (A) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
- (25) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge
- (25) Aegis - Resistance
- (A) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
- (46) Regenerative Tissue - +Regeneration
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (A) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod
- (27) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge
- (27) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Endurance
- (31) Efficacy Adaptor - Accuracy/Recharge
- (33) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
- (A) Stupefy - Accuracy/Recharge
- (29) Stupefy - Accuracy/Stun/Recharge
- (29) Stupefy - Accuracy/Endurance
- (31) Stupefy - Endurance/Stun
- (31) Stupefy - Stun/Range
- (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
- (37) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (37) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
- (39) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range
- (39) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
- (A) Soulbound Allegiance - Chance for Build Up
- (33) Soulbound Allegiance - Damage/Recharge
- (33) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Recharge
- (34) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage
- (34) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (34) Expedient Reinforcement - Endurance/Damage/Recharge
- (A) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (36) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (36) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (36) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (37) Obliteration - Damage
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Efficacy Adaptor - Accuracy/Recharge
- (42) Performance Shifter - Accuracy/Recharge
- (42) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge
- (42) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Recharge
- (43) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Recharge
- (A) Healing IO
- (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance
- (A) Stupefy - Accuracy/Stun/Recharge
Level 1: Brawl- (A) Empty
- (A) Celerity - +Stealth
- (A) Empty
Level 1: Shadow Step- (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance
- (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range
Level 6: Dark Nova Bolt- (A) Decimation - Accuracy/Damage
- (3) Decimation - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (7) Decimation - Damage/Recharge
- (17) Decimation - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (17) Decimation - Chance of Build Up
- (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
- (3) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (7) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (15) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
- (19) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
- (5) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (5) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
- (15) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
- (19) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range
- (43) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
- (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
- (9) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (9) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
- (13) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range
- (21) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
- (50) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
- (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
- (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
- (A) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (43) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (45) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (45) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
- (48) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (48) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (48) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
- (50) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge
- (50) Numina's Convalescence - Heal
- (A) Winter's Gift - Slow Resistance (20%)
- (A) Perfect Zinger - Accuracy/Recharge
Set Bonus Totals:- 17.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 17.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 17.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 17.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 17.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 17.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 17.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 17.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 4.69% Defense(Fire)
- 4.69% Defense(Cold)
- 4.06% Defense(Energy)
- 4.06% Defense(Negative)
- 4.38% Defense(Ranged)
- 4.69% Defense(AoE)
- 2.25% Max End
- 58.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 3% Enhancement(Stun)
- 52% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 4% FlySpeed
- 76.3 HP (7.12%) HitPoints
- 4% JumpHeight
- 4% JumpSpeed
- Knockback (Mag -8)
- Knockup (Mag -8)
- MezResist(Confused) 2.5%
- MezResist(Held) 5.8%
- MezResist(Immobilize) 11.9%
- MezResist(Sleep) 2.5%
- MezResist(Stun) 9.1%
- MezResist(Terrorized) 2.5%
- 13.5% (0.23 End/sec) Recovery
- 38% (1.7 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 20% ResEffect(FlySpeed)
- 20% ResEffect(RechargeTime)
- 20% ResEffect(RunSpeed)
- 4.73% Resistance(Fire)
- 4.73% Resistance(Cold)
- 6.25% Resistance(Toxic)
- 3% Resistance(Psionic)
- 9% RunSpeed
Set Bonuses:
Steadfast Protection
(Absorption)- Knockback Protection (Mag -4)
(Absorption)- 3% Resistance(Psionic)
(Dark Nova)- 3.13% Defense(Ranged), 1.56% Defense(Energy), 1.56% Defense(Negative)
- 3.13% Defense(AoE), 1.56% Defense(Fire), 1.56% Defense(Cold)
- Knockback Protection (Mag -4)
(Grant Invisibility)- 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
(Sunless Mire)- MezResist(Stun) 2.2%
- 3% DamageBuff(All)
- 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
(Shadow Cloak)- 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
(Gravity Well)- MezResist(Immobilize) 3.3%
- 16.1 HP (1.5%) HitPoints
- 3% DamageBuff(All)
- MezResist(Held) 3.3%
(Black Dwarf)- 5% RunSpeed
- 3.13% Defense(Fire,Cold), 1.56% Defense(AoE)
(Stygian Circle)- 12 HP (1.12%) HitPoints
- 1.5% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery
- 10% (0.45 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 2.5% DamageBuff(All)
(Gravitic Emanation)- 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery
- 20.1 HP (1.87%) HitPoints
- 3% Enhancement(Stun)
- 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
(Unchain Essence)- 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery
- 1.58% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
- 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
(Dark Extraction)- 16% (0.72 HP/sec) Regeneration
(Dark Extraction)- Status Resistance 2.5%
- 3% DamageBuff(All)
- 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
(Quasar)- MezResist(Stun) 2.2%
- 3% DamageBuff(All)
- 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
(Invisibility)- 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
(Dark Nova Bolt)- MezResist(Immobilize) 2.75%
- 12 HP (1.12%) HitPoints
- 2.25% Max End
- 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
(Dark Nova Blast)- 2% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery
- 2.5% Defense(Energy,Negative), 1.25% Defense(Ranged)
- 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 4% RunSpeed, 4% FlySpeed, 4% JumpSpeed, 4% JumpHeight
(Dark Nova Emanation)- 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery
- 1.58% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
- 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 3.13% Resistance(Toxic)
(Dark Nova Detonation)- 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery
- 1.58% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
- 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime) (Exceeded 5 Bonus Cap)
- 3.13% Resistance(Toxic)
(Black Dwarf Mire)- MezResist(Stun) 2.2%
- 3% DamageBuff(All)
- 9% Enhancement(Accuracy) (Exceeded 5 Bonus Cap)
(Black Dwarf Drain)- MezResist(Immobilize) 3.3%
- 16.1 HP (1.5%) HitPoints
- 3% DamageBuff(All) (Exceeded 5 Bonus Cap)
(Black Dwarf Drain)- 12% (0.54 HP/sec) Regeneration
(Black Dwarf Step)- 20% ResEffect(RunSpeed), 20% ResEffect(RechargeTime), 20% ResEffect(FlySpeed)
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All set bonuses do carry over to forms. Some procs do not and some do, it's......complicated...
Looking over the build now. -
Sadly, conflict breeds interest...
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See thats the thing, I might not like you, I might find your opinions wrong and your perception skewed, but I know you DO know what your doing
I might hate sushi, and the chef who makes it and the resteraunt the sushi is served in, but I do not doubt the competance of the chef.
I simply wish he would use his skills on something "I" view as more worthwhile. -
Quote:This I can agree on, but I always try to maxximize my potential even if it's not needed.Originally Posted by AlienOne
If they take the forms, they perform better, but not having the forms doesn't mean they can't perform well.
"Alien"
I have intentionaly gimped a couple of characters due to concept, they can perform well.
Their still gimped to me because I know they could be alot better.
My other main gripe about the human former thing is i have yet to see anyone give a good reason to human only without using the words "I don't like..." in the explaination.
I tried the fighting pool on my human only experiment and I spent too much time mezzed to justify the endurance use and power picks, I prefer the powers I can use as LoTG mules such as nearly everything in concealment. I find Leadership in the same boat as Fighting.
I did overstate the effect of not taking Gravitic Emmination, but like skipping the forms I just see no advantage in skipping it particularly on a human only build. The KB is only annoying if you cannot bowl for mobs and it's a simple matter to place them all in a nice pile to eclipse and mire off of.
As far as Dwarf to human AOE damage I have to assume your including unchain essence and Quasar as AOE damage which the dwarf will have as well. You cannot skew the numbers by assuming the human will have the 2 nukes and the dwarfer will skip them.
A former will most likely have both in addition to the dwarf powers, but assuming you exclude long recharge/not in an attack chain powers the Dwarf comes out ahead, more so if you count the effects of double miring. -
The comment was directed to LX not you.
Dispite what you may or may not believe everything on this forum isn't about you and your vids, builds, and opinions. And thats actually not such a bad thing.
LOLZ I'm luvin it. Great thread LOLZ.
Please, just back off.
Oops, almost forgot, the answer is: Tanks, Defenders, and Kheldians blue side. -
I'm actually kind of the opposite, I wish people would stop using team performance to say that something does or doesn't perform well.
I could use a well built team to say a Pure Empath rocks and does "loads of damage with her single teir one attack". -
Quote:Chefs and short order cooks alike can't just make the things they like, they have to be able to make even the dishes they dispise.Originally Posted by AlienOne
That's like saying, "I absolutely can't stand lasagna, but I'll give you the recipe on how to make a great dish of lasagna!"
Who exactly would want that recipe?
"Alien"
And to answer your question: anyone who actually does like lasagna.... -
It's no secret i do actually hate human only builds, I have been pretty plain about that.
The reason is because I have played human only for the first 40 levels on a semi-heavily IO'ed out WS. Now i'm sure this will undoubtably call my play skills into question on a human only build but before we go there, I can jump onto any of my 32 characters of all different AT's, Power sets, levels and degrees of Io'ed'outness and give a pretty good accounting of myself.
On my WS's I give better. I simply play that much and attempt different styles and builds when I do. I play WS's nearly 95% of my playtime.
In my experience, with every concievable (to me) build, slotting, and style my human form only WS's perform so far below my Tri-Formers of equivilent level and IO'ed'ness that it's actually painful for me to watch my damage output and wait while the stuns wear off or burn through yet more little pills to breakfree.
I never deneighed (sp) my hatred of human only builds (far from it) but in my experience anything a human only is able to do they could do it alot easier if they put the same time learning tri-forming as they did the "every other humanish AT in the game that plays nearly the same way".
I'm not saying "Don't play human builds". I'm simply saying I do not believe they are able to do the same things with the same ease or ability given players of equal skill and price range of build.
And amazingly enough I can have this opinion without demanding everyone subscribe to it. -
If I were forced at gunpoint to do a human build this is probably very similar to what I would
build. Though i would probably just let them shoot me instead. I would swap the whole fighting/leadership pools to something more like the concealment pool though as well as pick up the nuke, and gravitic emmination for offencive ability to not be slaughtered.
I already know your against the forms so I wont bother attempting to lure you but in the interest of others thinking this looks good i'll point out almost all your damage is going to be on a lower damage scaler as well as lacking the 45% damage boost your granted for squid form and have no ability to avoid mezz with dwarf form.
As I said, within the constraints you have placed on your build this is about as good as you will get other than the changes i mentioned. -
While technicaly not "procs" I was speaking of regenerative tissue +regen and numinas +regen/+recovery.
Also Miracle +recovery. -
And yet at the same time the procs you can place into fitness do carry over so long as you hit human form once every 2 minutes or so (which most tri-Formers do just to apply mires and eclipses).
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The question of wether or not EATs would be able to side switch was asked directly to the dev's at hero-con.
It was explained that starting in Preatoria was not allowed but side switching from your normal starting side was.
There is no quote, no citation, and no verifiable proof, thus I didn't bother posting it as most people will not accept an answer without verifiable proof.
Take this for what you will.
The Kheldian Empire has spies everywhere.... -
Quote:I feel confident in saying these were not any attempt at a pvp build, it lacked powers anyone semi-compitant with even the concept of pvp builds would most certainly take.Originally Posted by AlienOne
Hmm... Makes me wonder exactly what their playstyle was... Or if they were attempts at a "PvP build WS"....
Now I'm curious....
"Alien"
It was simply what I most commonly see on my server, people who quickly skimmed the forums and found advice advocating something similar to what they wanted to do.
Examples such as...
Reading somebody saying they find good results taking medicine pool (and ignoring the rest of the post stating after 40 and using minimal slots) so they take medicine pool (very early in their build) and skip the quirky (need to have bodies) Stygian Circle power.
Reading or seeing what some of the experienced and heavily IO'ed Human only formers
can do and deciding to skip their forms on their first forray into Kheldians.
(And just let me take the time to say now how glad I am that AlienOne is taking the time to place warnings on some of his posts explaining that human forming isn't maybe the best idea for starting out learning Kheldians on. I truely do appreciate this disclaimer going out, as I do believe people will have alot less frustration and we might see alot less "Khelds are gimp because I faceplant all the time" posts because of it)
People taking Orbiting Debt early before they even have enough defences and tricks to survive the agro it generates at low levels because somebody on the forums posted it does "Loads of damage".
People hate to read (if they even bother to come to the forums to read at all) and they seem to only read the parts of posts they want to hear and ignore the rest. This is why I believe I'm seeing most of the bad Kheldian builds I am (and 8 out of every 10 I see are of the sort I explained earlier) and as frequently as I am. -
Oh I'm well aware of the lack of NEED for Fitness, I just have never seen it thrown into the catagory of "not taken for concept reasons".
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Quote:I will always hate the glowing hands of doom FX and I can see skipping it for concept reasons, but whats the concept for skipping fitness "I'm an outta shape hero/villian"? I eat too many cheese puffs and twinkies?Originally Posted by New Dawn
I'll hold my hands up to skipping fitness pool and hasten on both my 4 yr old Khelds. They've never had them. Hasten may give people a best ST or AoE chain in some form or another and fitness may provide the endurance to keep up with that output but the concepts lay around being jack of all trade Khelds.
To each their own but that one i'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around on. -
Quote:I actually saw 3 today, one had the medicine pool instead and the other two were trying to get by on drain essence.Originally Posted by Psylenz
Seriously, not to mock, are there warshades that skip Stygian Circle?
All three were between 24 and 40, and had plenty of badges. They were NOT AE babies.
*names withheld to protect the ignorant*
I almost cried. -
My understanding was all EAT's will be allowed to switch but none will be allowed to be created as natives to Preatoria. They must start in their respective sides and proceed from there.
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Quote:Much better.Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Great post. I think the excuse that "Epic" meant epic story were blown out of the water with the introduction, and power level of the VEAT.
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I'll try to quickly cover my thoughs more clearly but I am pressed for time as I work in about 40 minutes.
I do think PB's need a buff to get to where WS's currently are.
I do think there needs to remain enough benefit to form dancing to justify the forms use on what "IS" a shapeshifting AT.
I have never thought there was just one way to play Kheldians but there simply is ONE most effective way to do so curently and I would not like to see this change.
I do not believe everyone needs to build my way or anyway, but we do have to acknowledge for the new Khelds that the one way (with a few style choices) will on average give better results assuming a zero sum point of learning Khelds.
I believe Bill's suggestion would place PB's at the point WS's are currently at because on a PB the human form has enough front loaded damage where the squid form can actually be skipped and very little functionality will be lost.
In my opinion WS's are a whole different animal that would require a whole new debate reguarding any changes.
Thats all I have time for atm. -
This I can fully support.
I would go into details as to why but I have been told by my SG/Coalition members I'm far to longwinded on kheldian matters as it is.
So I will simply say I can find no downside to this proposal. -
Quote:I find this to be an opinion (and there is nothing wrong with that) but it seems to be thrown around as a fact rather than an opinion.Originally Posted by Socorro
So many Powers and Slots that are mutually exclusive to shapeshifting... In light of this, *IF* Shapeshifting is intended to be the path Kheldians should take (and it's considered gimping if you don't), then as Billz says, it's Bad Design... Very Bad.
If I build a scrapper and massively deviate from the norm of how scrappers are played and built the only poor design is mine. I cannot deviate from the AT masively and then claim the AT is poorly designed.
"IF" Tri-Forming is the design intent I guess my question would be "who exactly is it badly designed for?"
(Although even I will admit the shape shifting could be streamlined and tray switching improved and built into the AT.) -
Quote:"She exacts a heavy toll for nine months lodging...."Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Dude! I'd rather fight Rularuu, Reichsman, and Hamidon solo, during a simultaneous Rikti Raid and Zombie Apocalypse, them buffed, me debuffed, mezzed and exemped to level ZERO than have to put up with my mother.
When you drive past the restraunt chain "Space Aliens" and giggle over ordering a plate of extracted essence.
My Kheldian would so eat there.. -
I really appreciate the chance for informed and calm debate based on logic and provable facts as oppossed to raw "feeling" on matters relating to Kheldians.
If i were you, I would possibly attempt to sway the developers in a direction more specificly to the PB side as their efficiency seems to be the one in question.
More specificly (and I loath making any changes as it always makes somebody unhappy) possibly extending the duration on build up(while lowering the damage buff to say perhaps 50%) and possibly lowering the numbers on lightform while allowing it to cross into the forms.
This would follow what "appears" to be the company line of promoting the use of forms while improving the PB to closer to WS levels of performance.
As far as some of the other things you said, I'll point out a few things I seem to recall.
(in no particular order)
The Developers recently did have another look at Kheldians leading to the I13 changes that seem to support the use of forms mentality.
I believe you could be correct about the Kheldians being poorly designed, I believe the intent was to make using the forms an integral part of the Kheldian AT but I think due to it being so early in the game they really could not have seen how the game would change and therefore made decisions counter to their intent inadvertantly.
One of the other things that my friends discussed at one of the two last hero-cons was that the developers were trying to find a method of streamlining the form changing mechanic (another reason I believe that the Kheldian intended style of play involves using the forms) but had run into alot of coding and animation problems that sent tham back to the drawing board.
I think your conciderable skills would be best used in such a way as to go with the apparrent current thinking of the developers reguarding any proposed changes to the PB's or Kheldians in general.
Again, thank you for the calm and rational debates reguarding this matter.