Nihilii

Ok ? I doubt we'll ever team ingame because with your attitude, I'd leave or kick you (nothing to do with SB/not SB).

Heh. And heh.

Much like taking any power beyond Brawl is mere icing, afterall you can perfectly level to 50 by punching -1/x1 missions. Again, I don't find it that fun. YMMV.

No, I'm pretty sure I didn't miss anything. I'm also pretty sure you perfectly understood me as your wording just screams "troll" with anyone with working brain cells, but I can pretend I believe you. This was in reply to the question "is SB needed ?". No it isn't, but why would you skip it and go slower for the sake of going slower ?

Teams where everyone have competent attack chains by level 26 would fall into my definition of "theorical perfect teams". I've never seen such a team ingame, but then again that might be because I'm not up to your über standards.

1/ If it doesn't miss. Which will happen, the maximum tohit chance is 95%.
2/ If it doesn't hit a dead enemy. Again, probably not a factor for your über self, but for the rest of us commoners it happens pretty often especially on fast-moving teams.
3/ To people in a 20 feet radius of your target. Even "theorical perfect team" wouldn't do justice to such a team.

As for the debuff part I'm just going to assume you had a brain fart, as surely someone as knowledgeable as you would know even defender Transference isn't a full drain on anything +2 and above (and even a full drain needs -recov to be actually efficient for more than a split second), making it basically meaningless as a debuff unless stacked with other end drains (we won't consider a team moving slow enough for the kin to use Transf twice on the same target as someone as skilled as you wouldn't play with scrubs like that).

Uh.

FS is a damage buff. Recharge =! damage. Both can be complimentary to each other, but are two completely different mechanics.

That would be great. Here's a few builds I can't manage to make and need your input on :

DB/invul, 45%+ S/L, 33%+ F/C/E/N, Hurdle/CJ, 300%+ regen, infinitely sustainable endurance (or 10+ minutes) while running a gapless AS/BF/AS/SS chain.
DM/SD, softcapped to all three positions, maximum acc/dam/heal/end% on SL, 300%+ regen, 90%+ DDR, slotted up OwtS and resistances, Hurdle/CJ perma-Hasten, infinitely sustainable endurance (or 10+ minutes) while running a gapless SM/SL/SM/MG.
Kat/FA, 45%+ S/L, Hurdle/CJ, infinitely sustainable endurance (or 10+ minutes) while running a gapless GC/GD/GC/SD chain.

(I'd also want the standard secondary powers slotted up on all builds as well as BU/SD, of course.)

My issue in all of these builds is I don't have enough recharge to use these chains and have to resort to weaker attack chains. Obviously I'm doing something wrong, and I'm looking forward to be enlightened. If you could post the results in the scrapper forum it'd be great as I'm sure other people could use the help.

That two line jump wasn't to make my post look cool.

You seem to be confused here, I'm lumping myself in with all the dirty commoners. You're the one elite skilled dude who should teach us.

Further confusion it seems as I can't help but wonder if you somehow thought we were talking about Night Widows ? Unlike FU/BU, SB and FS aren't mutually exclusive so this isn't an "either or" situation, but rather a choice between 2 and 2 + 1. Given the choice, I'll always pick 2 + 1 ; I'm crazy like that.

Not sure why did we go back to the "need" thing after we established SB wasn't needed. Not sure if there was a need for the leet "heal0rz" meme to further establish yourself apart from the unwashed masses.

Thank you. I'm sure it'll make an entertaining anecdote while you're sipping tea with your buddies and laughing about these people who "do not have the necessary intelligence" to be honored with your presence.

I would think you might have, you know, heard of that little thing called "travel suppression".

That you are going to recast every minute, with our theorical perfect team being in the 25' radius every single time. Okay.

Sarcasm is hard to do when presented with something so blatantly stupid. Most granites pick TP and are the ones least affected by movement suppression.

Face, meets palm, again.

Use Siphon Speed. Run. Jump. SB. Animation plays and stops you from controling your movement, but the momentum keeps you going. Repeat as needed.

This is Kinetics 101, dude.

Ok, I think we've officially moved from theorical perfect team to theorical crappy team. I doubt you could find 7 players who couldn't deal decent damage while SBed without FS.

Thirty seconds, right. So our theorical crappy team consists not only of ridiculously weak characters, but the poor players also run this game on a netbook.

Back to theorical perfect team who always stick together in a 20' radius at all time !

I'm starting to see a trend there, but that might be just me.

Sure, if you say you do.

(FS doesn't boost recharge.)

That would be true if you killed one spawn, then stopped there and logged out. That's not really super efficient though, most people like to take on spawns after spawns and occasionally finish missions too.

Of course... If you're going so slowly you're not even aware of travel suppression... You might have everything recharged for every spawn, and I guess endurance wouldn't be a concern either. Suddenly, it all starts to make sense.

An useful rule of thumb when doing maths to support your point : don't be wrong.

(Another even better rule of thumb is to do maths to understand how stuff works, rather than make up your opinion about how stuff works and then try to manipulate maths to support your view.)

Everything in there completely forgets animation time. Fortitude animates in 2.27s before server ticks, which means it actually animates in 2.508s. Let's say 2.5s.

Three even-level recharge SOs give you 94.93% enhancement (let's say 95%).

So, in that example Fortitude can be used every 2.5 + (60 / 1 + 0.95) = 33.27 seconds.

With a duration of 120 seconds, we can see it can be kept on 120 / 33.27 = 3.6 players. We can't have 3/5 of a player, even if he doesn't have SB and takes a nap between each spawn, so that's only 3 players.

Add SB into the mix.

2.5 + (60 / 1 + 0.95 + 0.5) = 26.99 seconds.

We can now see it can be kept on 120 / 26.99 = 4.44 players. Well, 4 players.

Now I'm pretty sure 4 is more than 3, so SB allows our theorical Empath to keep one more person under Fort.

Not going to bother adding the animation time to that, AB not recharging as fast as Fort the difference isn't as meaningful.

Instead let's use the numbers given and look at something else.

AB lasts 90 seconds. Without SB, it recharges in 150s. With SB, it recharges in 120s.

150 - 90 = 60
120 - 90 = 30
60 / 30 = 2.

That's right, in this situation SB just singlehandedly slashed the downtime on this buff by half.

Going from 180 - 90 = 90s downtime to 144 - 90 = 54s downtime on the buff portion, again quite the improvement.

How can you deduct that from math showing otherwise, math that you posted yourself will remain a wonder to me.

Suddenly we're all level 50s. It's nice, the goalposts keep moving - sometimes it's "when the kin gets transference", sometimes it's "with FS and transference", sometimes it's "at level 50". Randomness !

To balance that out, we're seemingly back into the "people need SB" thingy, after it has been disproved, what, one page ago ? Another familiar theme is confusing Fulcrum Shift for +recharge, or +recharge for +damage. I'm starting to think Warkupo read "+recharge translates to damage" somewhere and understood "+recharge = +damage" instead.

Hey, here's something I can actually genuinely agree with.

Well, the gist of it anyway, not the 19 second max figure which doesn't seem to come from anywhere that I can see. SB animates in a second (1.188s with server ticks), x7 that's 8.316, add a little bit of time for selecting your teammates and that's about 10-12 seconds and... Oh now I get it. You're the kind of guy who would actually use SB by casting it, waiting for it to recharge, casting it on another person, waiting for it to recharge, and so on.

Heh... And now I take a look at the posts made since I'm typing this, and I notice Smurphy made the exact same remark.

Right. The "lower levels" without animation times using level 50 invention enhancements in their powers. Right, right.

I actually agree with you and was misleading in my first reply as the FW part was strictly speaking from the recipient point of view. It's a great buff to have, not so much to give, especially to multiple people, what with the recharge that is at the same time too fast and not fast enough. As a Cold, I just like having it for hard fights or if I see someone's life consistently going down ; otherwise, I've got to admit I just FW whoever takes the alphas.

A dead blaster deals 0 DPS during the time he's dead and has to be taken care of unless he has RoTP or wakies. Letting teammates die is generally inefficient unless you happen to have Fallout/Vengeance and their damage contribution is low enough to be irrelevant.

Well, there's lots of ways to skin a cat in CoH but I'd argue you possibly weren't playing as efficiently as you could have been in that situation. If stuff dies so fast you don't take damage without toggling up, it's extremely likely there's some overkill damage in there. You could toggle up and aggro other groups, either to fight them or lure them near the tanker. I've been on teams like that (damage high enough that mobs just evaporate), and the difference in speed between everyone fighting just one or two groups at a time near the tanker, and scrappers/brutes/additional tankers going left and right aggroing more is night and day (although, to be fair, the potential for things to go south is also increased).

I actually dislike being SBed between fights, as for a split second while you're SBed the runspeed buff goes off ; while in combat I'm going to move much less.

Of course. It's slower. What's the point ?

Is anything really needed in this game ? I don't think so. Taking an extreme example, you could get to level 50 never training and just using brawl. Would that be entertaining ? Maybe for some, not for me.

Again, I don't understand the appeal in going slower for the sake of going slower.

If we're speaking about theorical perfect teams, ideally everyone should be a Fire/Shield scrapper and spam SC, imho. Well, ideally nobody should team as the best way to get maximum rewards-per-time is solo. That doesn't sound too much fun to me though.

Meanwhile in the real game, many PuG players tend to have end issues even at level 50, and most if not all builds can benefit from extra recharge and/or endurance.

That's cool and all for the almighty leet skilled player you are, but for the rest of us commoners with poorly designed characters, SB is a great buff useful in the vast majority of situations.


It's really ridiculous to see people trying to argue SB is useless. We're talking about a 50% recharge and recovery buff. People use one pool selection, pick three powers and use two slots to get that same recovery. People use another pool selection, pick one power and use two slots to get (roughly, averaged) that same recharge. People spend hundreds of millions, if not billions, on IOs to acquire the same effects on their builds. If the argument is "omg you are all idiots and I'm so much better than all of you", state it so rather than hide behind SB bashing. It's just ridiculous.

My thoughts exactly... Sure enough, the OP has proved the above with his behavior in this topic.

That said, I don't care that much about kins not having SB, much like I don't care about anyone not having X power. As long as you're not being annoying and actually try to contribute, I'm fine with anything.

I've downloaded the latest Mids (I17 version) this morning and it also comes up with 140ish. It seems they just never got around to update the values to post-buff values.

[Insert standard Nihilii reply about Shield on SOs being stronger than other secondaries in his experience here]

I guess I should just write it up nicely and copypaste it everytime someone goes "oh yeah but you're only talking about billion inf builds", like those folks do for server merges.

Well, 1/10th current damage would be 20 points.

That puzzles me too. Always wondered if there was a decimal error in FS recharge.