New Dawn

All attacks have to hit to gauntlet so acc is a must.

All attacks reduce your endurance bar quicker than your toggles when chained so endurance is a must to keep from getting low on end too soon and to have additional attack chains to keep on gauntletting if we should so need it.

Damage or taunt or damage and taunt add to gauntlet, but damage reduces fight duration.

Recharge means you can gauntlet sooner and more often with the better attacks.

Think in terms of damage to a "group" of 10 foes and not to a single target.

Scorch has a BI base rate of 3.1667 damage to a group in one use because it hits 1.
Greater Fire Sword has a BI base rate of 9.555 damage to a group in one use because it hits 1 (good on a boss).
Combustion has a BI base rate of 36.112 damage to a group in one use because it hits 10.
Fire Sword Circle has a BI base rate of 57 damage to a group in one use (because it hits 10).

Now imagine dam slots in those attacks and watch the damage to a group between each one become alot wider. I like the heavy ST for the 1 in the group thats most dangerous and as many aoes as possible for everyone else but only consume with a base rechg of 180 wouldnt have me slotting for dmg over rechg as its poor dot and good +end.

The amount of damage you do to a group for the endurance cost is lovely and if everyone stacked their aoes on a group and were able to keep them stacked then would we need stamina? Not as much because the amount of damage we would be doing for the endurance cost is much nicer.

If ya aint trying to get atleast 10 around ya even when soloing ya not making full good use of ya tank imo except of course inv/that cant get aoe or cone attacks just yet.

The damage slot in your attacks stack with taunt slots so gauntlet being as low a duration as it is per attack your having a taunt slot in place of a damage is pretty much gaining nothing. For taunt duration each taunt maybe not much different to the damage and being of fire secondary which puts attack chains together really well for ST and AoE id really recommend having attacks 3 dam slotted instead of 2 dam 1 taunt. Being a damaging tank is a good thing because there is only so long you can survive in some mobs and this really does count when the defense set on the team has no real healing quality although they may do alot for -fight duration and/or soft control though. I would if i were you spare more slots to the actual secondary taunt itself for AVs but in typical mobs /fire is pretty good in itself so i'd maybe 2 rechgs for long distance spamming if needed and then work on getting 2 taunts in.

2 things id say:

Blazing aura :3 dmg 2 taunt

This can miss but mostly its bad for firetanks that lack in aoe because the aoe in the secondary attacks can sometimes help compensate and if not then the secondary power taunt does. Damage stacks with taunt in aggro value but it wont if it misses and if it misses there will be no taunt so acc is very important when there is storm shamans, spectral daemons, nerva spectral daemons, force field generators, nemesis with vengeance, tsoo sorcerors to name a few, sets in your team or teams that -def enemy or +acc you could compensate for you. Foes remember damage well so even without the taunt component the aura id imagine would be good in the FTs case. My BA 'could' end up being 3 acc 3 dam 'depending' on my other power choices, survivability, enemy usually faced and the teams i am usually on.

Consume: 1 end enh 2 dmg 1 acc

This does do alot for damage and considering the endurance buff you can gain from it recharges would be better, recharge is often equal to a damage buff in terms of damage over time but in this case imo recharges are far superior.

i am sure you meant res and not def in all armours.

You'd think itll be impossible to tank with the way some people describe things. i have to ask "did they learn how to tank outside of a dreck map?" but in most cases these people will say "its not fun anymore". Fire/ice tanks dont rely on teams half as much as the others do but in certain ways you can be caught short. But thats life, dont expect to tank without proper support of the team just as anyone of the team shouldnt expect to be at the very least, overwhelmingly shot at, with proper support from you.

Take the acc from cj and put it in icicles atleast as rage isnt that good for +tohit and perma raging isnt something id always recommend but ice is in no doubt in my mind better than invuln to perma rage with.

When i first started i tried TS. i found i liked people more as their toon rather than the real person. People when talking about politics, religion etc and nothing about game can unknowingly make me go off them. I am also on a network, my connection isnt as fast as id like it to be and i crash at times, TS and MSN does increase this. Also I play on french server, i dont speak french and yet i have experienced some of the best PuGs ever not knowing what people are saying but seeing what they are doing and knowing why is enough.
I dont think ordering people about is a good thing or to constantly have to ask people the same things is a good thing but i do have macro's, people may ignore macros but they are there for those that wont. If i give a herdpoint i am most likely not going to change my mind on it and people can pass it or be too close to it if they want but if in doing so they may put my tank at risk of defeat (sometimes people do more to decimate survivability than create it). I am not sure theyre worth saving but often i try, but i dislike no cooperation because there are reasons for my methods, largely to not repeat mistakes made by me or as seen of others.
I probably am more fun on villains cos i dont care, the reason why my corrupter buffs people is to keep them alive so the enemy dont get to her conceptually, my brute needs to herd cos she is dark armour and has no fitness pool, if she doesnt herd she doesnt do very well plus debt is great as we get an accolade. You are more rewarded on villains for being less supported/supportive.

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Things like this are fairly easy to deal with when you can trust your teammates to do their jobs.

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I trust that when 2 empath defenders share the same team that they will AB eachother for more RA's and forts overtime or atleast keep eachother clearminded so that neither of them get held so that both of them can play better..erm nope.

I like tanks to be bodyguards, tell the team how their tank is going to play, what their tank is about to do and suggest what the team must do in order be safe with their tanker. On the first mob the team can get the jist and then you could trust the team to keep similar things in mind for the next mob so that they can do it faster...erm nope.

Many people mainly have one way of playing and thats mainly steamrolling and they forget whose in team, what powers the team have, what needs of support they or other people need, the ample time and space to give it or even what means of support they can give.

Thing is people tend to relax in my experience, after the first few mobs people become a bit laid back in their vigilance, a bit settled, the mission can become something of an "oh this is easy" and due to the laidbackness forget to apply what it is that makes it easy.

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Thanks for all the advice, I ended up playing it safe and just went for handclap..

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Yeah let me know if its any good. I like the additional defence from foes being in my aura. I see handclap as a "buy time" power a bit like burn.

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Final note: the endurance drain on this baby is very low even at low levels when compared to that of stone and ice.

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Whose stone and ice?

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Just don't pick Trick Arrow. It's more team glue to augment an already functional team, than a sole protector of the needy.

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You can actually play to not need external healing with a trick archer.

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Saying that passives give 15-20% defense is, at least, a confusing way to explain it. If passives give 15-20%, defense cap is not 45%, but 135%.
Yes, those that have played an /SR know each toggle/passive affect to a certain type of attacks, but hey, saying that without passives you'll miss 15-20% defense, one might think that it's 15-20% each.
And well, I'm not playing your game on giving credit to other players, just tried to explain something I didn't find clear enough

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now i am confused!

Having good defence against carnie can save you endurance. Sure you could be out of the end sapping pbaoes but with good defence they could miss anyway. Add to that most things would miss. You actually can have more end to play with. I dont and perhaps wont have fight pool on my tank ingame but i have various builds on test.
Weave is def to all. I worry about weave being what i think 'maybe' def to all positionally (although it might'nt matter or the def to all is literally def to all). With def though you rely on luck and the higher the level you face the more easier you can actually be to hit by the bosses and AVs etc and without passives you take more damage. Is the difference in passive resistance actually puny? Well i find that area grey.
I used to have fight pool with weave before def scaleability and i thought it was pants really but since being on test with it, against carnie, its a good option. I do think you can through good team support and playstyle live without it but for doing away with being damaged and getting secondary effected whilst herding it is good.
Is weave better than passives? Well atm i think it all depends what ya built ya tank for.
When it comes to dark ring mistresses i value fly by taunt, the less time to be attacked by them with minimal defense the better and when it comes to them reaching herdpoint i value controls.
The way i do sappers is scrapperlike. If its a case of possible ambush if i ran in I'd do a flyby taunt, then as the sapper is coming around the corner of my hidepoint i would jump out and knockout blow them and then fit in my attack chain (they are dead by the end). If knockout blow misses then 'oh ****'..no i click unstoppable if necessary or conserve energy.
If there is no possible ambush i just need a straight line of sight to ss in and knockout blow them followed by footstomp to get the groups attention, finish my attack chain on sapper and carry on.
If the sapper is hovering high i may have to flyby hurl instead of flyby taunt but the ranged epic holds are better than anything else you have a choice about. I dont have them because i play with the concept of choice. Energy pool on my invuln, ice epic will be on my icetank, pyre mastery will be on my firetank and stone epic will be on my stonetank. People wll just have to learn to expect me to perhaps play a little differently but in a pug a chance to would be a fine thing. But anyway being first in for me is important although not always necessary but as most tanks i will wager will tell you that often you have to sort the sapper out for yourself as no one else does.

@maelwys

When it comes to shadow shard tfs i find being put in detention field most annoying.

Axe usually doesnt actually get as much complaints as Mace. The difference between Mace and Axe is that with Axe you get less secondary effects that aid survivability than Mace but you get slightly more damage to make up. Mace conceptually would be more disorienting anyway and Axe would, rather than bruise an arm, would take the arm off.

Fight pool offers sustainable passive defense, presence pool is unsustainable active defense. I'd take fight pool and bring the endurance cost of the whole build including attack chain cost down (not simply picking a power and 3 slotting end). Weave for herding is great as its better to not be hit at all and good to also miss out on most secondary effects.

Best thing for sappers or anyone dangerous is probably a ranged hold from epics as they have good duration if ya not fussy which one, go for fire or ice because you get the hold at 41, but fire would give ya more frequent ranged aggro grabbing skills too. Are you actually really wanting flight btw? cos combat jump and haste would be nicer.

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War mace was bearable when you could 5 slot the attacks for damage.. Now it isnt. Thats my main grife really.

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maybe i should rethink my lv10 invun/mace tank then

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Mace is poor single target damage but 'potentially' great multiple target damage if my maths is right and with good additional survivability. Still not as good damage as axe though.

When rage drops a whole lot of defence imo is lost, its like its all gone and with it 35 points of end iirc. So although i dont like to have to worry about rage drop whilst tanking for teams (with all the panning (especially on maps with trees), tab hitting, taunting, planning, checking mobs, chatting, checking buffs etc, etc,). Rage drop is something i dont particularly have to like to add to the list of worries mostly versus carnie and malta (unless i am teamed with certain other sets) so that lowers my dps below that of mace especially with maces use of build up. Without build up mace would probably be less damaging than superstrength without rage (uninclusive of maces multihits) and due to the secondary effects and mace has more gains in survivability.

Now people will probably say that if i am not raged i am not pulling my weight as much as i could be or even if i am starting out as more of a tauntbot than a damage dealer but lets look at aoes for one of the reasons why taunt control can be effective:

Take a popular Rads debuffs, radiation infection and enervating field (there are more but just think of these 2 alone) both just 15ft of aoe, lets pack 16 foes into both of them through taunt control and get the 16 foes -dam,-def,-acc and -res all of which in the 30% region. (Packing them in is part of my job as a tanker, allowing me time to do so is a good idea.)

Then take damage aoes and how they can compare to single target attacks. An electrical blasters ball lightning 15ft radius aoe that hits 16. It does slightly more damage than the tier one, considered more useful as a chainfiller if anything of an attack charged bolts (despite is comparable dps on its own) but BL hits 16 so its worth 16 charged bolts on a group. Thats not even the best aoe about so when ya add up everyone in the teams aoe stacking at once on debuffed foes whilst using build up then omg!

Does it pay to have spread splintered groups for everyone to single target because the lack of targets in an area may not warrant the endurance cost of the aoe? Putting the fact that foes maybe undebuffed aside you still have blasters cone attacks, but can you always get the best position of use for them with safety as a blaster? And dont they hit only 10max and not 16 like aoes?

My tankers pbaoe will only hit 10 and i can only hope they hit more of those slightly out of my aura than in, i can only hope that my gauntlet isnt just effecting those mainly in my aura. In an egg shaped herd i may have to taunt the ones slightly out of my aura.

When thinking about all the different types of aoes theres nothing wrong imo with tanks who concentrate on taunt control from an early stage because with the right team behind them it can still make good sense.

Damage is important from the tank though especially as sometimes you dont have a healer and the buffs or debuffs only allow you so much of a fight duration in which to last in, and if you have got all the aggro needed or taunt is recharging what better else is there to do? (I do know that debuff zones can build to awesome areas of sanctuaries to some toons where ya think you could stay there all day).

With impatient teams i dont get things as whats the point in attacking before the tank has actually done enough taunt control? Whats the point in fighting plus levels only to get half the xp because you never waited that extra 3 seconds to be sure of some control? Or atleast for the tanker to make an opening aoe?

You can play without tanks but anyone else could get defeated in more of an instant than a tank might depending on enemy.

Despite all this i am not saying there is one drill to play to because i know there isnt but any variance for speed and the survivability of the whole of the team is good as long as hopefully all foes are getting debuffed, controlled and being hit by maximum damage in the minimal time with minimal casualties. Then if ya think that aint fun/dangerous/challenging enough just up the difficulty.

Old news to most people, just with some people i dont think they knew/could see why people played that way. From playing my squishies I do see that many people playing their tanks certainly dont think of all this when they play and even in the lower levels my blaster may run in and take the alpha just to get proper aoes off, with less hp than the tanks, because the tanks are worryingly standing back waiting for a snipe which will end up in scatter. My less hp blaster often still easily survived.

A vert similar thing had been done with */rad corrupters in my VG, i got sick of the word Rad being past about like its the "in" thing, but its best not to be so strict on powersets and perhaps have a choice of either primary or secondary and make whatever one powerset that floats your boat the theme to get people interested.

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I actually dont agree with the word especially coming from n00bs

More often i hear it used jokingly amongst friends or on people who are longtime players just to 'get' to them. If it 'gets' to you there is a problem. I tend to call people from the so called top sgs who usually call other people n00bs just to 'get' to them. I have n00b moments that i know i shouldnt of, but "everybody" does.

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Yea I dont mind it when ppl are messing about but last night it was used in the other context.

Even worse when you get killed in a pvp zone and all you see in broadcast "hahaha i pwn'd you n00b" that is dishearting bit infurating to...

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He is taunting you. Placate him.

Tanks were more independent pre ED and people were also less vigilant, certain things were a run through but all the game content with the right team can still be pwned as i am sure you know. People if they dont fancy hospital trips or want to up their game just need to talk more now, pay attention to eachother, cooperate more and actually become more of a team.

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Oh and the quote doesn't really apply to most dominator builds where taking more secondaries than primaries, and concentrating on them accordingly, is the way to success.

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My quote dont apply to villains at all afaik. Defeat leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to a nice accolade. I'd say with villains they can be 50/50 in builds more, well heroes can, but your free to be more uncaring about your role to team mates or caring (cos if they go down you go down) or for Lord Recluse regard failure as not an option.

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Actually, if the tank is holding the aggro, and there arent many AoEs flying about, the scrapper CAN normally turn of armours (best to keep the mez one on I guess!). In a solid team with a solid tank, a scrappers armours ARE pretty useless (whereas every other AT will have fairly helpful secondaries).

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Yes thats correct if your a super reflex you can turn off all shields except the aoe shield and practised brawler and the empath pretty much only has to heal the tanker and no-one else except perhaps meleers who may need it from being aoe'd no matter what is faced including any lone AV (usually after mob is done) and CM anyone that has to be within 30ft of melee (a tank can always offer enough range aslong as the teams never up the tanks **** and people if not invised are 40ft back from herdpoint during a herding process should i prefer one). There are tons more other stuff but they are often too difficult to get through so many experienced/inexperienced peoples heads and some people dont want all that, which is understandable....My tank is only going to be played on teams that arent xp craved now. I have no reason to play her. 1100 hours is enough. She isnt my first option anymore, only new game content or friends that are gonna give me some courtesy on allowing me my terms would bring her out.

Is this thread still going on?

Concentrate on your Primary role first and fit in your Secondary role when you can or if its seriously more needed.

I actually dont agree with the word especially coming from n00bs

More often i hear it used jokingly amongst friends or on people who are longtime players just to 'get' to them. If it 'gets' to you there is a problem. I tend to call people from the so called top sgs who usually call other people n00bs just to 'get' to them. I have n00b moments that i know i shouldnt of, but "everybody" does.

An empath could be made to have lots of free time or have no free time to use secondaries its all on the team dynamics. You can either have 1 person as an empath to pretty much worry about or 8 people.

I am one of those people who doesnt like to PvP an unwilling opponent. Its like placing my fun above someone elses. I know its a PVP zone and i dont mind getting ganked. Only on test server do i feel that getting ganked by alot of people is thug minded *waves to them chavs*. I think there is more xp to be earnt in that zone because of the additional risk of being pvped and it is a risk you must take if you want the better xp.