New Dawn

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You will NOT get a chance to unload several attack chains. At most you may be able to get off 3 fast activating attacks before your enemy is out of range again.... (and guess what? Mace and Axe have no ranged attacks) this is why spike damage is so important.

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It takes alot longer than 3 secs for the Masterminds i have pvped to bring my tank down and what ya end up having to do in team pvp is all subject to team.

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Stone Melee wins for pvp.

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No. No, it doesn't.

Really.
See above: the "Spike damage" bit.

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Nope the spiked damage of the stone melee is comparable to the energy melee so much so its very very tight on the difference that you can make with an attack chain within 10 secs but what is also good and this is why i like stone is its various secondary effects. I mean hurl boulder got to love it!

/dev blasters have the highest potential spiked damage output so it should go without saying that it isnt everything.

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Scrappers do the most damage melee, they are designed to drop the beefier of sets

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No, Blappers do by far the most damage in melee in hero side pvp. This is why you'll very rarely see a scrapper taken into arena battles on small team fights when there's an /elec or /nrg blapper available.

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Once again no, even because the scrapper is more likely to do more damage in melee before he drops than a blaster. Scrappers also have a melee damage modifier of 1.25 where as blasters are 1.0, blasters range is 1.0 and the melee i think is 33% better than the range but still 1.0 . The elec does great end drain this is its secondary effect that helps greatly with its survivability (and is a seperate discussion to damage) which means scrappers when drained cant do the damage and even the very best elec/elecs cant necessarily still beat the beefier sets and i have played against them. Also id rather be talking about ATs in general not specific sets as largely there is no hard and fast rule. Different powersets have niche's. Rads are the best set to goup against in facing an AV but sometimes only in the case of saving time.

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That part of my post wasn't even knocking tank damage output. It was knocking the damage output of my katana scrapper, which is considerably more than that of a Mace Tanker.

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I dont know how or why it came into the discussion tbh.

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Most enemies in PvP will completely shrug off my scrapper's damage as they kite me about, only letting me get in one or two hits here and there. What makes you think a Mace, Stone or Axe tank would do any better?

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What would make any melee set do to deserve to be made to be any better in this scenario? I am pretty unkiteable with my tank as i have ss and hurl. Scrappers could get web grenade and have ss. Tankers without a range -fly could jump and air sup and ss. Then they cant really always be kiteable.

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My Peacebringer can take MMs apart. He does it in 3 steps: AoE disorient --> AoE Footstomp --> Blapp the MM. Or if I'm feeling particularly evil I just pop Photon Seekers on the MM's chin. The result...? The henchmen are disoriented and/or Knockbacked out of bodyguard range, the defenseless MM then gets their [censored] handed to them via a few well-placed blapps. Now a /SS Secondary could deal with MMs this way simply by using Rage, 'Hand Clap' and Knockout Blow. And Energy Melee has sufficent spike damage to deal with a MM on their own terms, with a 30% chance for an AoE henchmen stun in "Whirling Hands".

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And so could mace and axe, mace and axe has better aoe potential than ss, and the difference I can get between ss and axe on a single target is negligable. Where did ya say you got the 5 degrees from?

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By the time a Mace or Axe Tank has killed off enough henchmen to strip a MM's bodyguard defenses, the MM will have his summons recharged. Other ATs will kite you or outdamage you over time. My Robot/Dark/Mace MM could completely destroy a /Mace tanker without breaking a sweat. Bottom Line: As a low-spike-damage toon in PvP, with no ranged attacks and weak mezs, I'd stick to spamming taunt or poaching Dominators.

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I was talking about pvp duelling. You cant complain about any set in pvp teams because somebody can make up for somebody there is no win win. I have beaten a MM with my Invuln/ss mainly due to footstomp. Its of longer recharge than of both axe's and mace's aoes and its my only one. If an MM is gonna take me down he has to take me down on my terms and thats what i have to create using the environment to help. Mace, Axe and Fire are the best 3 for aoe. MMs in bodyguard mode dont like aoe and other sets could provide extra aoe support if ya in a team.

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And don't even joke about Scrapper taunts...
("Calling the Wolf"??!? Are you INSANE?? I'd rather take MoG!!)

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No its great, its got great pvp potential and also its great to have on an AV in pve as well as saving the squishie.

It was no joke but i am talking in general terms, i dont see it as a must have and i dont see it as necessarily a plus versus all but it does offer flexibility.

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Now that I've cleared that up: Mace tankers will do just fine in PvE. As long as you're not intending to be a good PvP toon, it's definately worth considering.

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Its more PVE than PVP biased. As for PVP that depends on the player and the team. I really think PVP duelling should fade away. Some people say its like facing an AV. It aint.

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I had a lot of fun levelling my Katana Scrapper in PvE, and he's completely and utterly pants in PvP. Hammerfall and White Magus can testify to the truth of that last bit...

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The total damage capability of katana is great, especially if hasted. I could at one time make it pip broadsword but i think they either reduced its damage output or were possibly thinking about it since then, i dont keep on top of scrappers as much as i do tanks, they are my least favourite AT.

Hero vs Hero isnt a priority as ya both on the same side.

Scrappers are designed to lead the team in dps, its official and they do generally if you make them and play them to.

i really wouldnt advise ice melee for soloing without a damage aura and so 'any but invuln'/ice melee would be okay to me because it would be slow soloing. You solo better with aoes because you can do more damage to groups at a time rather than single targets and ss is very late on its pbaoe at 38 and also very late on its damage buff at 28.

For teams you cant go wrong with any as long as you play to your strengths and work on doing something about the weaknesses. Especially by playing to give the other people in the team the best chance to do what they do well - very well. If you dont allow time for buffs and/or safety for debuffs and controls then things can go badly.

All in all your not offensively thinking, scrappers are balanced heavier in offense than defense and sometimes dropping someone first is better than seeing a gradually losing battle but to be somewhere near ya thinking i havent slotted the attacks as heavily as i would my own asap.

How would i make a katana invuln, well i wouldnt touch them with a barge pole, but anyway this needs to use divine avalanche atleast once in every 10 secs for best result, also i do recommend build up but i saved it to the end for ya so that haste gives ya faster recharging dp sooner and as you dont use it much. Invulns in this circumstance for me has become a defensive set and on a kat scrapper id highly recommend it. Hit the last foe in a mob with DA so that ya prebuffed running into next group.

---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
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Name:
Level: 50
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary: Katana
Secondary: Invulnerability
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01) --> Sting of the Wasp==> Acc(1) EndRdx(3) Dmg(5) Dmg(37) Dmg(37) Rechg(42)if not rechg then end
01) --> Resist Physical Damage==> DmgRes(1) yes just one
02) --> Flashing Steel==> Acc(2) EndRdx(3) Dmg(5) Dmg(31) Dmg(31) Rechg(40)if not rechg then end
04) --> Temp Invulnerability==> DmgRes(4) DmgRes(13) DmgRes(13) EndRdx(43)
06) --> Dull Pain==> Rechg(6) Rechg(7) Rechg(7) Heal(15) Heal(15) Heal(36)
08) --> Divine Avalanche==> Acc(8) Acc(9) DefBuf(9) DefBuf(11) DefBuf(11) EndRdx(37)
10) --> Hasten==> Rechg(10) Rechg(23) Rechg(23)
12) --> Combat Jumping==> DefBuf(12)
14) --> Super Jump==> Jump(14)
16) --> Unyielding==> DmgRes(16) DmgRes(17) DmgRes(17) EndRdx(46)
18) --> The Lotus Drops==> Acc(18) EndRdx(19) Rechg(19) Dmg(21) Dmg(21) Dmg(36)
20) --> Swift==> RunSpd(20) RunSpd(43) RunSpd(43)
22) --> Health==> Heal(22)
24) --> Stamina==> EndMod(24) EndMod(25) EndMod(25)
26) --> Soaring Dragon==> Acc(26) EndRdx(27) Dmg(27) Dmg(31) Dmg(34) Rechg(36)
28) --> Invincibility==> DefBuf(28) DefBuf(29) DefBuf(29) TH_Buf(40)
30) --> Stimulant==> IntRdx(30)
32) --> Golden Dragonfly==> Acc(32) EndRdx(33) Rechg(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(34) Dmg(34)
35) --> Tough Hide==> DefBuf(35)
38) --> Unstoppable==> Rechg(38) Rechg(39) Rechg(39) DmgRes(39) DmgRes(40)
41) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(41) Rechg(42) Rechg(42)
44) --> Focused Accuracy==> EndRdx(44) EndRdx(45) EndRdx(45) TH_Buf(45) TH_Buf(46) TH_Buf(46)
47) --> Aid Self==> IntRdx(47) IntRdx(48) Heal(48) Heal(48) Heal(50)
49) --> Build Up==> Rechg(49) Rechg(50) Rechg(50)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Power Slide==> Empty(1)
01) --> Power Rush==> Empty(1)
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
01) --> Critical Hit==> Empty(1)
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Most power choices are ya own but i do like to make alot of builds for fun and no toggles arent end heavy, the attack chain is. Works best in herded mobs, invulns always do unless carnie :P but with your def and katana does more dps for great dpe for it.

Please remark on anything.

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Not to mention mace should be better than all secondary sets bar fire and axe taking out MMs

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Axe has ONE AoE that does considerably less damage than Footstomp, and if you think you're going to hit many MM pets with a 5 degree cone you're wrong.

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Firstly where did ya get 5 degrees from? I think its wrong. Secondly you should look at recharge times for potential damage per second and at damage per endurance over time, be it damage to a single target to an endurance bar or total damage output on multiple foes. Thirdly MM pets are stupid, also some people who play MMs are not always the sharpest tools in the box as environments are good to use.

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Fire, I'll grant you has some very nice AoEs, but no mezzles at all to drop any toggles or get the henchmen off your back.

As to the other sets: Footstomp and Handclap, Fault and Tremor, Ice Patch? All good AoE damage/mezzles.

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The only thing I have said about is doing damage to MM pets being able to hit them all at once is better than one at a time. Mace, Fire and Axe can get real good at this.

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There's a reason that Super Strength and Energy Melee are the cookie cutter PvP secondaries. You could also argue the benefits of fire (indeed I have done in an earlier thread) but I seriously don't think anyone could promote War Mace as a "good PvP secondary".

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Stone Melee wins for pvp.

The energy is good at stunning as is Mace but its the high burst damage thats key about it. Superstrength is like Stone, but less high burst (high burst is often what people require) but Superstrength is more sustainable damage.

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Traps and FF secondaries both have AoE disorient protection. And remember that you're just doing (fully resisted) smashing damage.

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And all the others can take bfs. Itd the aoe damage factor against MMs that matters alot.

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Whirling Mace has a tiny radius. Crowd Control might help against tightly packed mobs (melee henchmen?) but you're going to be hard pushed to kill another player with just Jawbreaker and Shatter. You lack spike damage output so they'll just run away and laugh at you (believe me, my Katana Scrapper knows all about it...)

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A tank versus a scrapper isnt an ideal situation for a tank. Every AT has a certain amount of damage level and a certain amount of survivability. Scrappers do the most damage melee, they are designed to drop the beefier of sets. A tanks damage output isnt designed to compare with that of the scrappers, but there are ATs the tank will take down easier and in some cases maybe the only one with just enough survivability to do so.

And with that i really need to start going into the scrapper sections and tell everyone to get taunt....

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I wasnt talking about duel pvp. It is theoretically impossible to duel with mace. It couldnt kill a defender, dominator, fly or ant. Anyway Im too touchy about the subject and drop this now.

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I'm not trying to draw you back into this debate but I have defeated dominators one on one in PvP zones with my tank. I also defeated a corruptor or two, through use of clobber when they had no break frees (I assume they didn't have any because they didn't use one).

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And I've seen Gen drop the stalker that nearly had me after alot of turrets whittled me down! Not to mention mace should be better than all secondary sets bar fire and axe taking out MMs...just a hunch though...cos my claws is multi target and she does em pretty well, whereas Shan she cant hit all pets enough at a time as constantly and against a thug poison MM it was pretty tight win but if he took his gun attacks as well as all his poison he'd of bodybagged me.

You know what i must of done 1500 posts or more in the tank section and so i think i am gonna invade the scrapper forum for a bit....and tell everyone to get taunt.

01) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(1) EndRdx(3) DefBuf(3)Slow(7)<---slow?

02) --> Chilling Embrace==> EndRdx(2) Taunt(5) Taunt(5) Taunt(7)Slow(9) <--omg uber!

14) --> Fly==> EndRdx(14) EndRdx(21) Fly(21) Fly(23)<--are you gonna fight with this on? its low end really now

22) --> Icicles==> Acc(22) Acc(27) Dmg(29) Dmg(29) Dmg(31) DefBuf(31)<---defbuff? end redux yeah i know builder is buggy

24) --> Taunt==> Taunt(24) Taunt(50) Taunt(50)<--do able not spammable but ya an icetank

Haste + sb, am or ab = perma hp which is good for psi AVs or any AV but AVs dont make up much of the game, but haste alone is good now are ya sure ya want grp fly?

Hammerfall, I dont have every toon as a great PVP toon, if i did, perhaps everyone else would and if we all did, we could be drawing in matches all the time and it would get boring.
Duels are meant to be one sided in certain terms. You should be able to knock of a storm defender where as a firetank is gonna have his work cut out. There are ups and downs.
The Firetank has the best overall AOE and ST capabilities but with no secondary effects he or she cant keep people standing still.
Energy Melee happens to be a great ST powerset it actually sucks at AOE but the total potential damage output combined with control varying from great to none at all is fairly balanced.
If i couldnt tank for a team with a secondary PVE or support a team PVP then id complain but for now toons vary on a scale as good to bad PVE and PVP against certain enemy.
Stonetanks have psi resist and other tanks dont but who helps make tanks survive a lvl 52 Giovanna Scaldi? The whole team does including the tanker themself.
Shannon like you has no fear resist, it could be a killer for me in PVP, do i care? No, as i cant have everything, someone else could provide me with the support i need against it.
You would of for total damage output PVE made my Shannon look weak for almost all of the game, against carnie and malta (that make up 40-50 content) in some teams, rage could be sometimes unexpectedly helping towards suicide and footstomp is my "one" aoe that takes along time to recharge. If you dont enjoy tanking enough to play PVE since being 50, its no ones fault. I personally love a challenge but hate uncourteous teams so for me its 50/50 but nothing stops me from making and playing them and talking about them so much you'd think my fave toon was one.
I come on here, with some of my thoughts on tanking learnt from the viewpoint of my squishies not just my tank and from having learnt from other tanks a thing or two.
Mr Cuddles for one showed me that you can get teams to behave (cos he'd sit on his butt if they never) which not only made his tanker more visibly a key member but more as a bodyguard too, I pretty much only had to heal him, its so much easier to not have to try and do everyone at once, I changed my style to more bodyguarding as a result and more people find me no fun but i am happiest for it and looking for likeminded people is what we need to do.
Id love a toon like Hammerfall, id play it, its just i am a tart with about 46 toons across 2 accounts (Id play anything!) And whatever i am not good at with one toon I can enjoy being good at with another. I see icetanks tank malta better than what i can with my invuln, i dont try to play like them, that would be daft each person in each and every different team has to change but i have it to look forward to on my icetank. Icetanks can get pwned by other enemies my invuln wont, i have this thing now where i am overambitious with one tank cos my other would of done it.

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ps. If you call a SINGLETARGET stun that does no damage and is up once every 20 seconds a boost in survivability I have nothing more to say.

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A single target stun that does no damage is a boost in survivability!

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I tried herding, for about 5 levels in the early forties - I was tough enough to do it, and quite good at judging my aggro cap, but at the end of the day it was quite simply slower than normal tanking. To get the attention of a couple of mobs, wait around a corner for two minutes while they all arrive, keep the team informed of what's going on - it all interrupted the flow and xp gain slowed down for everyone even when it was working well.

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Herding could be moving horses foes 3 feet just to get them into a pen. I think your idea of herding is trying to aggro maps but its not. It could be moving 1 group of 10 to a safer position at which to fight or making them tighter for debuff areas. I just do one group at a time since ED sometimes going for more is just plain stupid especially as some foes create pets and buff pets which all stack past aggro cap and often its not the size of the mob you worry about its the amount of bosses or certain types of minions in it. Another thing is I never try to look good. Team size and make up vary on what kind of result your herostat will have and as a tanker your herostat should be least important anyway, other people do matter, to a hero friends matter, people turn the game into a business where economics matter. Most i think they would of been happy with any game reading "Earn XP!" or "be a thug and hit things!".

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I dont see haste as a good to have recharge buff for taunt though as its not perma anymore cos what happens if you was relying on it and it runs out?


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Hit "Geas the Kind ones"? Or ask to be AM'ed/SB'ed?
Or start using lower damage/higher recharge attacks for gauntlet?

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None of them ideas are good enough to me. Thats now you saying Rad and Kin ftw!...or go get an accolade.

I have mine 2 rechg 2 taunt i can spam it about conserving endurance if i had too, without unherding a debuff zone and to keep high level AVs on me, a range slot is also nice as it can put you out of cone attack range on an AV limiting their damage output and choice of attacks.

Gauntlet is poo on an AV and GM and you can actually safely get through missions with either a trick archer, sonic, ff and a stormie if ya try and obviously more so if they didnt skimp on slotting the primaries.

Clobber mainly, disorients buy time, they may even knock off npc armours, id have to say id love that, its not as great as energy for disorient but energy isnt as great for aoe dam or aoe disorient.
I use knockout blow on anything that will overcome my resistance or defence and take down one of my life bars pretty fast, its like a controllers "active defense". Axe has nothing but knockback which is imo pants really. Id have to get a hold from an epic pool but then i wont have conserve energy to keep my attack rate up against other things. Downtime is also -dps. Foc Acc is nice too versus arachnos as there is not much in the way of "oh i am blinded". Knockout blow i can get upto 10 sec duration on a +3 sapper and solo it, so with clobber id imagine i could get a 16 sec duration and solo it and due to less single target damage i might need it. Build up can be recharged every 30secs with haste, a fight takes about 20 secs, 10 secs between groups to assess, group and say ready. With the multihit potentoal of mace id have to herd.
In fights where i have to keep my attack rate up or need more attack chains than id expect i like my end conserved, i can non stop attack as long as there are no end drains involved and like i say +per and +tohit is nice for me too, i just got to land knockout blow and if i was mace id need to land clobber.
Just like damage auras offer great damage per endurance so does aoes providing your attacking over a certain amount of foes with them.
Mace is definately more PVE than PVP and i think you get that in the way of balance in some cases. In PVP your not like a high burst damage scrapper so for attacking you need to do squishies and in teams apart from assisting damage you could be almost constantly locked on a taunting contest (i am glad it needs acc for pvp) while the others are free to have fun with possibly neither of you taunters able to take the other down.

I will say building a mace tank up isnt easy cos id want to lose a secondary but finding the right one wouldnt be hard. My attacks would have to fill the hole made with no pulverise through recharge and then id also know what ppl mean by being unhappy waiting for haste to return as the last four attacks can make a chain on their own thats great on groups. I might even consider fight pool but that would make me even more pve than pvp.

Conceptually i have no idea why clobber does so little damage, they should buff that and then buff the other sets relatively.

Whats bugging me is with the no damage aura on an invuln i have no idea how i levelled one cept for the fact i almost never soloed which is far more doable and enjoyable on the other tanks.

Def scales dont it but not in the way people may like, i think my SR is obviously more likely to get hit by bosses that are +4 than +3 but by not just simply because the bosses are higher but because the tohit calculation makes it even easier.

i feel like i am talking to a brick wall sometimes. I have a claws scrapper in its own way mace is very similar. If you dont play it to multihit you dont really see its damage, you dont see how it excels but yes multihit attacks are more easily applied in PvE than PvP. Some toons do better at single targets than groups whilst some do better at groups than single targets. In terms of taking on a mob one tank may have a hit 5 attack, whilst another tank may have a single target attack that does 5 times the damage of the other tanks multi hit attack but hits 1, the damage to the group is damage to the group so in PVE its fairly balanced. We cant all be the same until they make changes to every set in every AT so that everything suits everyones idea of pvp and pve.

Acrobatics offers some form of mezz protection therefore it is a form of mezz protection.

Mace has nothing to cry about compared to Ice melee in PVP but /ice is damn good if your a firetank with burn. Some sets just go together better than others.

Mace should be 2nd second to axe and 3rd to fire for aoe damage in teams. What it lacks in comparison it gains in survivability.

To get a balanced change theyd have to increase aoe effects of those that are low on aoe to compensate for the increase of single target effects for those that are low on single target and then so the game stays the same, go and buff the npc villains but then i wonder what new problems would arise.

No but its a good idea.

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Fight me in PvP with a mace tanker. Anytime, anywhere, any lvl. And thanks for [censored] me off for the rest of the day.

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i dont know how you will manage to fight yaself i really dont.

You are putting PVP as your priority. Winning in PVP starts at the Powerpool choice screen for most people.

I have seen better quality Mace tanks than Axe tanks. I have played with a lvl 40 Inv/Mace and all i can say is "nice!".

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You call acrobatics mez protection in PvP. Right.
I think I had best stay quiet now. Not a good way to start a day especially after suffering from insomnia.

ps. You HAVE a mace tanker, dont you?

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Acrobatics is protection versus holds and kbs so against some people using it, its enough but against a Mace tanker it isnt and so you get to stun people and they have a bf to get through, against Axe tanker with an epic hold it should be and would certainly make the kbs of Axe worthless. What i mainly do is compare Mace to Axe as they are so similar.

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Well, lets take valkyrie fight for example: I was pumping her with all 5 energy attacks, including endurance drain and she still turned around and made for the nearest squishy after 20 seconds or so, without taunt, that squishy would have been eating sidewalk.

There is definately a place for it and certainly needed at higher levels.

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Yeah but villains are villains, you can have whatever villain you like, ones that simply doesnt care about team mates (like the kind of heroes we often see). If a villain joined my sg, robbed our base and buggered off i couldnt complain as he was playing a villain but if a hero did that to my hero sg id be pretty miffed.

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Superstrength has rage. That might be the reason why people dont complain about SS that much. It also has knockout blow, which afaik does noticeably more damage than Shatter (my builder says about 1,5 times the damage of shatter but im not trusting my builder). And is a hold, whereas shatter has pantsy knockback and no disorient element of any kind. Could go on but im tired.

ps. But ID VERY much like to hear why people keep mentioning 'better survivability' when talking about mace? EM has more and better disorient chances hands down..

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Lets see, mace gets build up at 16 and ss get rage late at 28 but ok priorities may make you take build up late. Superstrength gets 1 pbaoe that hits 10 every 20 secs what does mace get? Whirling mace and Crowd control which both are multihitters that both recharge faster than footstomp. Mace makes up in damage to a group what it lacks in damage to a single target. Not as much as Axe though, whose level of damage can do much more than Mace on a single target. When faced with end draining foes a Mace tanker can slap them with clobber and then beat them, an Axe tanker has kbs, how great arent kbs? But the axe can take a hold from the epic pool whilst the mace tanker can more easily afford conserve energy which would mean it can keep beating up opponents whilst the axe tanker is tired because of it, not to mention that mace isnt as end heavy as Axe anyway. Flexibility is a bonus. Ive said Mace can have more survivability than Axe, not comparing it to anything else because of disorients. Ice melee is the real poo damage dealer but everyone would agree that icepatch is such a great power for tanks to have, thats a sacrifice. Mace is less damaging than Axe but more disorientating. I compare Mace to Axe cos they are so similar.
The thing with rage, is it has a downside when it crashes it hurts in end drain and defense and just because its always up but for 10 secs doesnt mean its constantly of value for a ss tanker as there are often gaps between groups, gaps where you wouldnt have build up running and times in some missions where you would think twice about using it. There are times when you just have to stop, keep above 35 points of endurance despite end drains.
Mace cant reach the level of Axe or Superstrength in damage to a single target in a short period of time. Ive said that but i think you have to look beyond that, some things are balanced in ways people may not like for concept variation.
Energy does win hands down on high burst single target damage with secondary effects but not multiple targets, it really does pale there. Its great damage in short time but it does mean it goes through its end bar sooner and so the end recovery doesnt really stand as much of a chance. If end rec had a good fight against end cost then it would have more attack chains to its end bar.
Perhaps now there is the PVP element in the game since the sets were made a change should be made, i think clobber is a bit silly in being so disorientating but not very damaging, the disorient is good so perhaps a trade of in the level of aoe damage would be better if as far as the devs are concerned there isnt really anything wrong with the set.
I havent made any attack chains up atm i am basing my opinions on the figures i have on my excel with which i min/max so i am not 100% and i maynt be totally correct.
I think they could very well put more damage in clobber and lower the damage in aoes to compensate providing there isnt any misbalances.

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Those disorients that mace gives soon knock mezz protection off some ATs in PvP

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EX
CUSE
ME??

edit:..........just exactly WHAT are you basing THIS on??

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My statement is true. Even jab from superstrength set can knock of acrobatics and acrobatics does offer mezz protection to holds and what stalkobot said about stacking disorients.

Axe i think is the best multihit damage dealer overtime with a weapon (foes armours aside). Stone can beat it on a single target but is more high burst. Mace isnt all that far behind Axe and can probably squeeze out extra attacks to make up from better endurance and has disorients to add survivability to do so. Those disorients that mace gives soon knock mezz protection off some ATs in PvP and can better keep a sapper dizzy endgame.

Smash is highly resisted and superstrength is also smash also but i think superstrength lacks more than mace is potential multitarget damage overtime, do you hear people complaining about superstrength? Well ss can be made to pip Axe overtime for singletarget damage whereas Mace cant so "no you dont", because most people i think look at the damage to the single target and not at damage to a group of foes. Superstrength has no weapon but i mention it because I want you to see that people dont look at things in terms of potential damage over time to a group but to a boss, AV or someone in pvp.

Ofcourse its better if you put on an anorak and look for the best attack chain ya can get from axe and mace and see how much damage over a ten minute period you can do and all figures will be potentially speaking.

Energy is the 100 metre sprinter in terms of damage to the single target but that has no weapon. It rocks on the single target so is great in PVP but in PVE against a group it isnt all that much of a king cept for the disorients.

In a choice between Mace and Axe on an invuln i would go Mace PVE but thats without me checking on how much smash is more widely resisted compared to lethal and thinking about how much i love secondary effects.

I say all this with my maths on excel left unfinished from when i got bored after thinking damn these sets are pretty balanced but in different ways partially due to concepts and no, there is no pleasing everyone. Why i started it i dunno, but bcos there is a whole mountain of stuff to look at, i just thought bugger it, i am going back to playing the game.

I am with Blind Minotaur on this one, i dont care if brutes have taunt, they are villains, the times when it would come in useful could equal debt, debt leads to an accolade and saving other villains is damn well...heroic.
However considering i have successfully kited almost every AV at lvl 52 without defeat on my super reflex scrapper since ED keeping the team from even being hit and considering the amount of buffs and debuffs you can probably get endgame (cos almost the world and his mum lvlled an MM first) you can taunt AVs and limit them in what powers they can use and who they are likely to plant. Taunt exists on a brute for concept and useful to gameplay reasons, not because the devs didnt know what else to have there.
Conceptually speaking what brute wouldnt be mouthy enough to lure wolverine from the marvel comics?

"that slows things down and lowers XP gain across the board."

I bought the game to play a hero, whats is this XP?

Running in then running out type herding can lower xp more than necessary as just taunting, disappearing and letting them run to and build up around you is quicker or providing one mob isnt in the perception range of another just running in and aggroing is ok. As for XP/time stacked aoes on a mob can hit upto 16 at a time, if everyone stacked their aoes, without ever getting defeated no one is gonna say "this is how i imagined my hero face on the floor". There is a time and a place for everything, its non sensical to rule things out completely. Normally in teams where aggro control isnt allowed to be as good as it could its the same one person that keeps getting faceplanted all the time. I dont look at them and go "tut there he goes again" and treat it as an "it happens thing" because if it was me faceplanting i wouldnt be too impressed or even i might get annoyed. Actually i wouldnt of attacked in the how and way the dead in every mob type of person would of. I would for my own personal survival would of lowered my dps through lack of any aoe which would lower xp/time for the team but would increase my own. If nobody is doing me any favours why should i do them any?

16 foes all debuffed for -def and -res all attacked for hit 10 or 16 aoes is faster xp than 16 foes, 2 foes per person each with a couple of people getting more than they expected unluckily and defeated on the floor ready to earn half xp.

Herding is the moving of numbers, it could be making 3 horses move 3 feet.

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If I can give a good piece of advice here: found out that taunt on a brute 45+ is a good idea.

I have used it a LOT since I picked it up on 47 with heroes and EBs. Many times in a fight with a hero they head off to pound someone who is doing a lot of dmg, one taunt and they come running back.

Great power to have at a level where heroes in missions is common place.

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AVs and GMs attacks tend to be a bit heavier in melee than ranged (abit?) so its sometimes best to take the lesser damage. Also if your taunting the attacks away from the team then the team arent getting hit. If a pbaoe wont hit you cos your not close enough, then the pbaoe may not even happen and dont forget they are what tends to wipe the team.
A masterminds 'uberlicious' -regen poison trap isnt gonna get dropped if ya causing the GM or AV to do something like footstomp cos itll get interrupted.
Auras and gauntlets have low taunt durations on foes in general and are currently useless on GMs and AVs, on test they get a buff but not a great one.
An aoe affecting one lone brute is better than the aoe effecting all those that keep everyone else standing. Of course you dont have to always taunt at range as different buff/debuff sets + heals have different effects that are either enough or not enough on top of peoples builds. Different sets have different requirements of play too.
But anyway i for one wouldnt be walking into LRSF without taunt as a brute even if i ever only have to periodically taunt at range to give the team time to recoup by removing the direction of fire from them.
Also to not sound too heroic i will need it to keep mobs on me. Mobs suddenly leaving my brute and going onto some other brute isnt good for my dark regeneration or dark consumption or fury.
For PvP teaming its pretty essential, no one on ya team is any good defeated and sometimes its a case of "if ya team mate falls, you fall" or the opposing team claiming wins out of squishie hunting.

Chronometric Manipulation.

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Im looking for a challange is ICE as squsihy as I keep hearing or is it all just idle chatter.

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You can create survivability from your secondaries and extra powerpools, also in how you play in a team and how the team plays with you let alone your primaries. Knowledge of how the enemy are buffing themselves or debuffing you is also worth gaining. Learning is part of the challenge. Many people just go "this is ftw" without looking at how the so called gimpier sets could be played and choose the easier sets to get along with. If you find something challenging and like a challenge then aim to rise to it but imo the icetank is no slouch.

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Nobody holds the aggro like an ice tanker, they even take it off blasters. When I play my Warshade & there is an ice tanker in the team, I know I am in for an easy night :=) Ice ftw

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All tanks can hold aggro, if the tank is built and played around that then its just upto the team to allow them to do that. But icetanks can steal aggro from other tanks although fire despite needing acc can on occasion put up a fight for it.