New Dawn

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Apparently on the US forums they actually "try to" provide details of why they think INV tanks (or whatever other powerset/AT) should be changed

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Edited. The first post was without the right level of openmindedness to of stepped aside from that imo but being as I hate maths, thats good for me.

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ANY tank can solo on invincible without a problem unless they have a gimped build. To improve any aspect of any tank would make the game even easier for them. Every tank other than granite form can have trouble with 8 man spawns, but hey thats what team mates are there for. If there was no challenge the game would have died. If tanks could still do what they could prior to I5 then it would be City of Tanks. Nowadays the game is more diverse and team mates actually have a use.

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I agree with this, I have a pure build and will solo the Bank missions on Invincible with the Carnie bosses and sappers for cookies.

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You state why should you have to keep revisiting your main and changing him...well hey thats life..things change. I for one love the IO system it gives more options and longevity to level 50s. If the game remained static it would be pretty dull.

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I agree, but will say peoples expectations of Tankers vary, people have a different point of what a Tanker should be able to do and you dont need numbers to back up ones expectations.

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You have failed to provide any proof to back up any of your arguments and you have failed to convince most people following this thread that you are actually aware of the role of a tank. These are the facts. Yet you are the one who resorts to the level of personal attacks. If you want people to respect your opinion then give us a reason to.

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Like I say I dont think numbers are needed to back up ones expectations. Role of the Tanker is to get hit, try to stay alive through what they can do with any helpful dynamic and support from team some expert to be nigh on be without support. Also I dont think many of the people within the thread have been all to guideline abiding. I expect a person with a post count of 11000 to be a damn sight better than a post count of 12.

*Petitions everyone*

I am not sure continuing with the thread is going to bring about anything constructive at this rate, therefore I suggest agreeing to disagree and base someones capability as a Tanker upon seeing them and then pretty much keeping ones opinions to oneself because everyone has their own idea of what is good and what is not good and people should be left to take people as they find them.

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You really don't have a clue about tanking do you?

You don't have any concept of defense, aggro caps, taunt auras or even the basic principle of how aggro works

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A very constructive post...Not.

*Footstomps thread*

Please avoid "flaming", "trolling", "harassing", "profanity", "abusive (unknown but good enough to be censored) language" or abbreviations, personal attacks or personal slurs, racial, religious, ethnic, or sexual slurs.

Often times arguments can’t be won, so if you have a contrasting opinion, please state it simply and clearly. If necessary, agree to disagree with others who may have differing opinions. Discussions can get more and more hostile the longer they get, please be impersonal and keep things constructive.

*Repair cracks in thread and then waits for a telling off for impersonating any NCInteractive or NCsoft employee*

i think the aggro cap reduction is similar to a nerf to taunt but its a aggro cap reduction to anyone. Anyone can round up 17 and no more, a blaster can hit a group of 16 and get them on his butt, but when he hits another group of 16 a moment after he may just have 1 more than 16 on his case. After dropping some of the first 17 comes the Conga line of stupidity whereby those you hit, wake up to of been hit and take an interest in you.

The way things work with the aggro cap doesnt sound realistic, the idea of some getting hit or effected but not taking a interest. A virtual sense of having attention could be there whereby all will follow tanker but the moment the team are involved the groups that are above 17 cap could pick on anyone, much more realistic imo.

As it stands you can run between 4 groups of 10, pull 17 by running out with them or have 1 person follow you there into the middle and have 34 following you out.

You know your toons. I am not going to argue with that. Ill take that as a sure thing.

Have you ever been on teams whereby players could of done things differently and gotten more from you? I am not looking to rant, or come across holier than thou or anything just voice errors seen with the knowledge that people do things unintentionally and with no way of knowing otherwise. So with a voice as a defender I am highlighting things I find creates problems.

But surely there have been Leeroy Jenkins moments or times when you could of helped given that moment to spare or had it not been that someone was positioned behind a wall through a doorway that was blocked by more enemies?

My patience is paper thin on teams, it shouldnt be, but in places its "ah not this again". Its almost like people can just run in, mash keys and have a personal healer that doesnt have to see to anyone else at any given time with anyother power. Empaths have 9 powers to the primary not 3 for example and a place for a RA isnt within range of every enemy AoE attack going.

I see limits, limits like range, action times of powers and number of targets. Alot of people dont keep a map up and they are spread and some dont even have team bars up to find out why you cant help, I cant help because your over there and so and so is over there. "Heal pls" from a Tank could get an answer of "I cant I am dead from that AV that ran away from you". This more in PuG Rikti Invasion stuff but happens in other places too.

Today I saw not a good sight, a first, I have seen similar when Invincible was broken on Nems but this was a first in itself. I call for a buff prior to AV, Tanker just runs in, team acts immediately to help, AV runs out and takes me and the controllers out totally oblivious to the Tanker. The Tanker perhaps didnt think ahead, never had to before, he needed to look for the AV first, hold the target, for that someone who may of attacked in a hurry to offer immediate support. The AV then passes the Tanker between taunt aura ticks or before being found by the Tanker and went for rest of the team. A possibility, an unforeseen circumstance that a buff up period may of lightened the load with. When there is no chance for buff up and a wait for a defender to say ready on such an AV annoys me. After which then the Tanker can then assume control under support then when aggro is claimed the team moves in. The direction of cone attacks and most enemies, can be pointed away from team. Mistakes are made to be learned from and I have made a ton but in the end I was too uncomfortable to carry on reliving them. I have seen teams where plan A-Z was the same plan and the leader would have no one elses ideas, ground hog day with no changes so to speak.

Rather than come up with ideas of what teams can do that counts against a defender, every type of, I made every type of defender to try to see through most defenders eyes so to speak. I thought it best to also ask you guys if there was anything that "annoys you" or more constuctively "makes you happy" in terms of what teams can do to help you help them apart from the what some people may say "Just Kil skulz"

My pet hates are:

No buff up period so I could say I love a buff up period. You never know what could go wrong sometimes but a great increase in peoples abilities can overcome such problems there and then.

People, solo across maps, experimenting, showing off but then in need saving. I could go with let idiots die which is better for me, and sometimes I am just as bad for it with my scrapper (although they are kind of the more soloable builds). I do say things like "I will solo this", which means "solo" and let people know to please not get involved when I remember.

Blocked Targets.Nothing goes through objects and rather than enter a small room where the Warhulk and Fake Nemesis explode together with all the AoE removing all my innereds, I like things done in a place where visibility and range are offered. Also when someone pulls forward, blocks themself, its harder to be there in time.

On my empath its as if I am generally expected to only provide heals, any defender is more than that, especially TA and sonic and ff but with other types you also buff or debuff so that you have to do little in the way of healing and then can do other things, but without the time to buff or debuff you may end up healing more and if you do try to fit in the buffs or debuffs (more so talking about the single target type) then the action time is taken up whilst someone is actually in need of healing. Thats if you have a heal ofc.

Cone attacks or AoEs needlessly pointed my way. A large part of the survivability in the game comes from where you choose to stand and where the people being attacked choose to stand. If I taunted Malta standing next to you then you will likely be stunned therefore Id want you back or away from me, sometimes I end up as a defender with no say.

Anchors being dropped because they are so hypnotising, I do know that telling people is like talking to a brick wall on this one, it could be counted as one of those problems that for some unknown reason will never ever go away.

Groups not controlled tightly to be sharing any debuffs. If I am meeting my maker as a defender due to debuffing the enemy then there is no more debuffs. A defender is so damn good it can often be a keystone in the bridge, without one there is no bridge. they support the whole team, they make the whole team better than they are, so do controllers, but Ill suck up to them in their section though

Worst of all Defenders are often not listened to as a key member! Trick archer in a team, "ok I have never teamed with a trick archer, what would you like us to do so that you stand a proper chance of defending us...*after being told*.. I take it split up fights or out of the question then?"

Fair enough we may all have problems or for some, none at all, but I would like to know if there is anything more that teams dont do to help themselves by not helping you with any defender set.

My wording may not be good, this takes alot of editing for me to even understand myself as a third person but in a way its trying to be about learning from others the game.

Only 29 posts like that so far today Max!

its 5:30pm already!

You are slacking!

*cracks whip*

I take the tohit formula to be like this now:

[(Total Tohit - Total Def) =>5 or =<95] * Total Accuracy =>5 or =<95 = Hit chance

So if i had 55% tohit and the player had 101.5 def and i had 2 acc SOs in an attack my chance of hitting with that attack look to be:

[(55% - 101.5%) =>5 or =<95] * 166.66% =>5 or =<95 = Hit chance.

5% * 166.66% =>5 or =<95 = Hit chance

5% * 166.66% =>5 or =<95 = 8.3%

When you run into 'even' level Rikti and herd up you probably get the desired result to what Tankers are supposed to be feel like. When you add levels and rank, they become more accurate and more damaging and so you dont feel like a Tanker should feel like and thats when support and playing to get the most out of your build comes in. The Devs base the game around one thing and then players play it around another and then go "this aint right".

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You're refering to herding which was as a result of being able to taunt an entire line of sight in one go. Taunt was the single invulnerable power that, for that reason and because it meant healers and controllers were not really necessary, was overpowered.

[/ QUOTE ]Taunt is not needed for herding, and never was. Aggro auras are there for a reason.

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Taunt can speed up the gathering process, bring very high level enemies straight into melee where one 18+ invuln has greater defense, removing extra fight duration to self, removing alphas whilst herding. Whether it is needed in a particular fight is subjective to whether your dead or not

On the american forums they want unyielding debuff removed, in a way this is asking for extra damage mitigation to almost all damage types.

Now a suggestion for extra resistance is a smaller request. How many would rather have 30% resistance to energy than say 27,3 in total? Its a nicer rounder figure and best of all Scrappers and Brutes who when it comes to invulnerability have passives abit more worth taking.

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Will you miss me?

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I personally feel that one person on this thread has had to answer to too many people at once who have suggestive judgement and/or inciteful words put within text along with non constructive stuff from Hammerfall as usual

I'd hate for these forums to lose anyone to the American Forums cos thats the ultimate low

I kicked a petless Mastermind and thought I start a troll thread that can have people flamebaiting eachother for months over the moralities of it.

Give me Bridger anyday!

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I do have to ask again.. are you going to put forward any evidence that Inv tanks underperform compared to the other tank ATs?

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In xp/time terms for me it does, I was Inv/ss to start and no way could she make the xp/time that my fire, stone or ice does. Damage auras count for alot imo.

On the American servers, a "need for fix" basically comes up everyday with so much maths, you wonder, do these people play? These people have been Tanking from word "go" and put down more "yucky" maths down than I could lift with a stick let alone shake one at. The "need" for extra energy resist, would get alot of support. Expectations differ.

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to be honest you just dont sound very good at tanking.....

edit: no offense

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For the record I've been a Tanker since the day the game started in the USA. I'm one of the best Tankers in the game.

But comments like this make me decide to drop this thread.
I'll leave the good fight to my American friends who are far more elequent than I am.

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There is no "I" in Team

*double checks*

Any person can be or not be as a result of themselves and their team. Cos you do PuGs your asking for trouble

I made an Icetanker on Infinity the other week, last week, i was lvl 6 and I gave it the "I will herd to here!" and i got floored...not what I am used to . On Vigilance my 14 energy/energy brute gave it the "I will herd to here" and some really nice Sonic/thermal Corrupter filled my Insp tray in the hope that:

A) I stay upstanding incase she doesnt do enough
B) I let nothing drop her

and thats how it worked for the whole night, great night!

My firetanker wouldnt of lasted in that 54 Rikti, not without some off and on kiting, flight preferred, she would of had to of RotP'd somewhere in all that and in the time my Inv/ss would of kept on fighting, she would of probably had to RotP again most likely, do I worry about Firetankers? Nope, they make greater xp/time that additional chance of debt is a bit balancing in terms of that.

I am slightly underwhelmed with RotP personally, the mode after resurrection is simply a let down with only the graphics and chance to regain aggro after defeat being a good thing (although since you are immob for first couple of seconds its not that good) the movement should be allowed back! Priority? Nope. I see the problems going on with Oil slick as a bigger problem.

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The rest of the rikti generally aren't too bad to tank, I've tanked the Honouree outside unstoppable without recieving outside healing on my INV/SS... the trick is often to keep your foes into melee range. If you do that, they'll mostly (drones aside) be hitting you with attacks that contain a S/L component, and Invincibility will be increasing your defence.

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With Frozen Aura that can get even easier, cos that matches what I had been saying about what can be done with the power however iirc Honoree is Energy Melee, like Tyrant and Siege and they are easily limited into what and how many attacks you can allow them to do.

The melee to get smash and lethal is why as a Firetank Id of had to on and off kited 54 rikti, to get as much ranged energy as possible instead of melee lethal.

I was on Shannon the other day and I spied a lvl 54 Rikti street group, "great xp!" I thought (no I didnt) "Great xp/time" I thought, (no I didnt once again because thats not necessarily true) but however I am gonna solo "All of them!" and so I did, sometimes even I like a good fight.

I herded them up fast and started with my stomp, kb on a boss (atleast 3 bosses in that iirc), a portal opened up and more came (Good to not herd 17 then have a portal aint it) I was taking too many hits and needed to Dullpain and use Rage to reduce as much fight duration as possible and then Unstoppable to survive, I needed them all finished before my crash! The fight was then quite easy and Geas was used as +rechg etc despite its -defing me I was fine, I was Unstoppable anyway and so I kept on fighting. Rage and my greater dps was still not quite cutting the mustard then came the Unstoppable crash and so I used that Archmage accolade cos I decided defiantly I wasnt going to move, I was gonna crash in the middle of them and so I did, then to a dullpain and fought as bravely as I could till I was down to 3 last Rikti. My health wasnt good, I needed time, I used movement, splitting and hitting, splitting and hitting my last 3.

My Firetanker version is alot messier, plenty of blood and guts all over the place, none of them Rikti

Ofc with a single person offering support Id of done everything better but not if they got aggro and got defeated and so Tanking is all about Taunt control. Survivability also comes from support. Support doesnt come from dead people. I dont care if I cant tank it all. I will damn well try in the hope that when I give perfection in supporting the team I get perfection back

The challenge was taken away. On dreck for example, even levels as a Inv/SS you can herd 10 and then defeat 10 of even levels, then as you got higher the amount you herded got less and less. The end draining effects stacking with your attack chain and rage crashes and haste crashes was the only main worry for the Tanker "without support". The challenge existed for the Tanker, 1 in 8. Was it easier to repeat missions than go through Malta and Carnie arcs? Yes it was, herding maps of basic groups was less challenging (although fun) especially with some so called "Pros" in the team who like to get the team ambushed with their skillz.

Im glad those days are gone tbh.

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Nice build. Only thing I would change is to slot nothing in Inhernet - there are other Enchancements that would be more useful by not putting it in Inhernet powers.

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I am open to the idea of you getting a data error.

Bridger:

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Nope. It works the way others have described, so in the example of 20 mobs, 50% chance to hit and cap of 10, it checks the first target for a hit, then the next target, then the next and so on until either (a) 10 targets are hit or (b) there are no more unchecked targets remaining in the AoE.

I think that in the case of AoEs, the game starts checking at the centre of the area and works outwards to the edge, and in the case of Cones, I think it starts with the targets closest to the entity using the power and moves out away from them.

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i dunno why i am so lazy.

With my firetanker if solo and its on unyielding I herd 10 in the direction I am going and i defeat 10, I dont count, its more of a rough count but usually things go as planned. From 20 onwards this has been doable with struggles with Tsoo and Banished Pantheon mainly who tohit and acc debuff but after a while with a few more slots they go down comfortably. Build up at 22 was good for tohit and also my psuedo stamina. I do more damage per end and therefore I saved on attacks and lowered fight duration.

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After leveling a boring but resilient Invulnerability tanker up to level 28, my Fire tanker feels somewhat squishy and I think Tough should be a must... but in the other hand I try to tank a lot of enemies (too many) at the same time. The lure of having them all around me and fry them with Blazing Aura and Combustion is... well, difficult to resist.

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Those attacks only hit 10, unless you have a blaster, defender or controller etc helping you to keep a fight duration down its not always best to go above that.

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The duration of the HP Boost is 2 minutes, the power itself is up every 3 minutes with Normal Slotting (Or just under every 2 minutes on my current IO'ed-out build... Perma-HP-Cap plus +regen bonuses is FUN kids!! )

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Similar to what its already like with haste and teaming with a empath or even a kin. "I'd imagine"

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this could be me getting it wrong, but i was under the impression that the way the tohit calculation works means that the cap is applied after the tohit, so the more badguys around you, the better your effective accuracy with your PBAoEs...

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After leveling a boring but resilient Invulnerability tanker up to level 28, my Fire tanker feels somewhat squishy and I think Tough should be a must... but in the other hand I try to tank a lot of enemies (too many) at the same time. The lure of having them all around me and fry them with Blazing Aura and Combustion is... well, difficult to resist.

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Those attacks only hit 10, unless you have a blaster, defender or controller etc helping you to keep a fight duration down its not always best to go above that.

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The duration of the HP Boost is 2 minutes, the power itself is up every 3 minutes with Normal Slotting (Or just under every 2 minutes on my current IO'ed-out build... Perma-HP-Cap plus +regen bonuses is FUN kids!! )

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Similar to what its already like with haste and teaming with a empath or even a kin. "I'd imagine"

Well I liked the guide. There are sometimes certain elements to peoples guides I dislike which makes me go off but yours didnt have any of them.

One thing I think people worry about too much is redraw, sure it is annoying to keep seeing but I think the animation = cast + redraw anyway, although I could be wrong and so I bring it up. What I do see is a lot of weapon attacks lacking in fluidity with a attack stop pose, attack stop pose, type thing to them. I think Back Alley confirmed it, at least thats how I understood it.

In the text of Glue Arrow and in the text of Oil slick (of the top of my head) it states the recharge slots effect attack rate, well in a "over time way". I am thinking "providing you use it". It could say that the recharge slots effect "recharge time" of oneself like most other powers for less confusion, but it says "attack rate" (I should go on game and confirm this) but the power I think doesnt -rechg anymore with as it does without slots without an over time factor. Some say slows aint worth it in glue arrow but they do carry on slowing the enemy after the glue effect has gone and with -90 run speed effect there is no point using that on the same group twice. 2 slows can be better than 2 rechg, 3 rechg can be better than 3 slows and all visa versa.

Powers are more valued to some sets than other sets, and even then depending on who you team with, but I think you made the right choices as to what works with your gravity and I shall be borrowing some of your slotting decisions an all.

Every power in the empath set alone should do for game content. You might want stamina and haste and a travel power. The leaderships are a nice plus for teams but arent as needed as people say imo (I have it atm to see the difference) and medicine is no replacement to what you already have in the primary. Rather than add medicine just speed every primary power up in recharge and/or make them do more per use. If people are falling about alot or your having to heal every 2 seconds then wow you are probably having a great deal of fun but there are less suicidal ways for the team to play and there should be opportunity for you to attack if you dont mind attacking.

Well when I get time, shall I put as many toons as I am prepared to do and put them in Atlas on test for you to demo record all at once?

I would possibly have a footstomp that was 1 end 3 dam 2 rechg using rage and invincible for tohit and then have a very good footstomp overtime to allow for a footstomp to aid self as and when needed.

I dare speculate that in melee you may need 1 interrupt and at range 2 interrupts "without" a secondary effect use from the secondaries like footstomp (for numbers) or Knockout blow for a (single target).

What ultimately you will find best is going to be something you have to work out.