New Dawn

If ya have seen one, let us know about it, and I'll tell ya if its mine or not.

[ QUOTE ]
Was just talking cross purposes (since when Shannon commented on the cone Taunt that effects >17 targets, I assumed we were talking about the actual taunt effect rather than the mob's subsequent behaviour!!)

[/ QUOTE ]


See we do look at things differently from wording!

AOE Attack, "Effect Area Sphere", Radius 15 feet, Cast Time 1.67 seconds, Range 70 feet, Recharge Time 10 seconds.

41 second Taunt (magnitude 4) to Target if (target = critter)
10.25 second Taunt (magnitude 4) to Target if ((target = player) and (Attack does not miss [Autohit overridden]))

I know Im not a funny girl

But now that I have played chess well enough and shown a love for fish. I just want to say something. Not directing anything at anyone in particular or everyone cos that wouldnt be fair especially not fair on Maelwys I might add whose done nothing dodgy on this section. Hammerfalls always dodgy . I just keen to point out that alot of the time one has to try and think for the third person when a post is written. I say to myself "how would they read it?" and the newer to the boards a person is or as "unused to people" they maybe then the more chance they are going to be misunderstood or misunderstand. Id guess maybe they are not likely to be thinking "How would someone read or take my post". People dont always interpret other peoples posts as the other people intended or for that matter do so, with awareness of the rules. The more posts one makes the more one learns (so really by the time I get to Golden Girls number of posts I should be a open minded kitten to someone with a post count of 500 no matter how insulting they may come across but thats just a theory).

The one thing about having lots of toons is this now, you dont play anyone as good as you used to when you had less of them and most certainly when you levelled them. My ability with my Empath now is unquestionably bad in comparison to when I levelled her however there are other toons that I dont quite lose it with as there are far too many hours of experience, i just might need to get drunk to play normally is all . There are other toons that with some additional knowledge that has been found since even being 50 I opt to go about things differently.

I have some "sweet moves" with claws, when solo anyway where I can promise Id get what I want done, done!

Run in middle if tight follow up spin, knock to a corner with shockwave, stacking them and then eviscerating more than one. Or run in shockwave pull to an outside corner eviscerate more than one and use spin. Either way I herd for myself. Claws is second to Spines for AoEs and can have the best ST dps, I have all but the first attack to try to capitalise on both. I dont PVP and so can afford to.

Not arguing, I have debated on an issue where I agreed with Maelwys before, just worded differently, looked at things from another angle, its amazing how things can be worded and 'possibly' lead to misconceptions as in what someone is trying to say.

[ QUOTE ]
Mmmm, Knightly has a point here, tbh, playing with defenders/trollers has improved my scrapping, since now I realize how annoying some things I usually did are and how easily they affect the team's performance. Perhaps the problem Shannon mentions improves when people try playing a defender or a troller and see things from a different point of view.
On the other hand, I also have found defenders and trollers unaware of the problems they cause to melee toons, but to be honest I found less of them than dmging toons which are unaware of the trouble they cause to the defenders job.

I think the best education in this matter comes by itself when players try different AT's and see things from a very different point of view.-

[/ QUOTE ]

Being someone with more toons of all ATs than alot of people mainly due to altaholism over 2.5 years I can vouch for seeing a different picture. However the largest part of that picture came from levelling each AT to 20 in the beginning despite having a main to level. Generally speaking, those that get to 50 on one type of toon without trying others tend to have a rather limited picture, they see the movie, but others who play all ATs understand the making of the movie better so to speak. I might be asking my question in other sections later but with arising problems of those ATs. All in all team survivability in any team usually isnt as good the total possible team survivability.

Debuffs vary on what your up against, enemies vary in debuff resist, buffs are there and 'stand' so to speak. Buffs also arent subjected to tohit requirements like some debuffs or location of enemies and they dont entale aggroing like many. A resistance bubble for example is more often greater than any damage debuff. More often Id much rather a sonic bubble than any damage debuff going against what Id actually consider tough, like an AV. When it comes to types of defenders though, I dont get picky.

If I go to hold a Invuln Tanker with my Mind controllers dominate in pvp and it doesnt miss, the hold buff icon will be on the tanker but Id have to use dominate about 3 more times to actually hold the tanker. That one hold despite being on the Tanker doesnt actually hold the Tanker, therefore I wouldnt describe the Tanker as held, would you?

If I manage to put a hold on someone and they arent held, they arent held. If i put a taunt on someone and they arent taunted, they arent taunted. I see what you guys are saying but thats how I look at it. A disabled taunt isnt taunting.

If a taunt buff icon on a pet means the pet is taunted to you, thats your way of looking at it, for me it doesnt count just like a hold icon on a Tanker doesnt mean a Tanker is held, until something else helps happens like more holds are stacked. A MM pet can be hitting someone that didnt taunt them therefore taunt mode is disabled and the pet isnt taunted until the taunt mode can be abled.

You can physically try to taunt, but unless a villain over the aggro cap is attacking you its not taunted, taunt mode is disabled till room within the aggro cap is made.

Anyways I took a hypothetical taunt (which allows room for some fantasy) as a taunt that actually taunted, not tried to taunt, but actually taunted.

If its taunted and taunt is abled then its taunted!

*throws book*

We have 2 ways of looking at it, mine is no different to the difference between putting a hold on a tanker and the tanker actually getting held despite the mechanics being different.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I always wanted to tank a few, but hard enemies, not humongous amounts of ants. Pity that the devs did not agree with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do know that making costumes takes time. If like in the comic books each villain came with its different set of costumes due to being a "hard" enemy, they'd be fewer harder enemies which doesnt cover the 100s of hours of game play thats needed to be filled. So they did super powered street mobs instead with some harder enemies like AVs and then Named Bosses.

I am open to there being good reasons for the aggro cap that are good reasons without me knowing them. The Devs do what they do for a living for a reason. 17 has never been a problem for me. I dont need to gain attention of more for any reason mainly because the need to gain more attention is avoidable.

[ QUOTE ]
As someone who has a TA defender, some of our debuffs are placable (ir not bad guy centric) where as others need a target to fire upon. Bunching the bad guys together=good for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true, how often do Tankers bottle that part as though to try and pass aggro off with only a TA in team (due to lack of confidence) I wonder..hmm, I'd love to Tank for my TA, cos then Id know exactly what to do with one when it comes to AVs, not from my Tankers perspective but from that of my TAs, what matters first? Well with so much in the way of debuff resistance that AVs have Id be best of looking to do these effects Rechg, Defense, RunSpeed, PerceptionRadius, ToHit <---lol at tohit debuff due to less resistance... (Actually Id chuck everything fwiw).

Level AV Res Mod for those effects.
1 0.6
2 0.6
3 0.61
4 0.61
5 0.62
6 0.63
7 0.63
8 0.64
9 0.64
10 0.65
11 0.65
12 0.66
13 0.66
14 0.67
15 0.67
16 0.68
17 0.6818
18 0.6919
19 0.6920
20 0.721
21 0.722
22 0.7123
23 0.7124
24 0.7225
25 0.7226
26 0.7327
27 0.7328
28 0.7429
29 0.7430
30 0.7531
31 0.7532
32 0.7633
33 0.7634
34 0.7735
35 0.7736
36 0.7837
37 0.7838
38 0.7939
39 0.7940
40 0.841
41 0.842
42 0.8143
43 0.8144
44 0.8245
45 0.8246
46 0.8347
47 0.8348
48 0.8449
49 0.8450
50 0.8551
51 0.8552
52 0.8653
53 0.8654
54 0.8755
55 0.87

As a Tanker Id either pop lucks, hit unstoppable, instant kite (taunt at range is often the biggest (psuedo) damage debuff I know and with entangling arrow itll be easy) and watch the fight end in a possible average of 3-4 mins.

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine for hypothetical reasons a taunt power, which, when activated, "taunts" every mob in a five-mile radius and has no target cap. Taunt duration is for instance one hour. Everything else with the tank remain the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

See I was imagining that hypothetical taunt, "taunting" every mob with no disabling. Because if something is taunted, its taunted, disabled taunting is not taunting.

Long ago, when aggrocaps came out I went to Rikti island and quickly established Taunt doesnt work beyond 17. I know that once you have aggro cap, thats it, but I am thinking that Taunt doesnt Taunt anymore, if it did it'll work, it doesnt work because its disabled.

"If something is taunted its taunted"

and if its taunted then it cant target anyone else.

It works with the aggro cap but unlike other effects taunt is disabled above 17. I have as a controller mass hypnotised more than 17, however only 17 would want my body if it aggroed and was seeing things in terms of Taunt actually working beyond aggro cap from what Hammerfall was saying with the hypothetical taunt actually taunting. It doesnt work beyond aggro cap unlike my ability to mass sleep beyond aggro cap, it works with the aggro cap. If taunt actually worked beyond it then enemies will target no one just like slept enemies cant attack anyone. Only if something is defeated and room is made within the aggro limit Taunt might work hence the existance of the Congaline of Stupidity trick (that I know I have mentioned on the forums before). Taunt beyond aggro cap is therefore disabled where as other effects arent and so no taunt effect is there till room is made within the aggro cap. So when I looked at the taunting of 100 foes with the hypothetical taunt I thought of it actually taunting as disabled taunt doesnt taunt.

If it were possible against 20 people in PvP Id be looking to expect a possible 'unaffected' to change to 'taunted' after a short delay when taunt has worn off someone else.

But like I said above in the Edit which was roughly 5 minutes after that post, I get what people are saying, the picture I had from Hammerfalls wording was if Taunt was actually able to work, otherwise it is disabled and there isnt a taunt in effect.

If I have to reiterate more than this:

*chucks book*

The idea of players getting ambushed beyond a Tankers means of control maybe part and parcel of the artificial risks to be had in game. What Maelwys said is basically what I am down to really, I agree with him. Like I said aggro cap suits aoe cap fine. If any one group was above 17 foes or peoples AoEs can hit more than a maximum of 16 then I see a real point but Id hate for Tankers to feel pressured by other players, even just to get a team into outside pools and beyond concept to achieve it.

Personally I think if your tanking in a position where someone can aggro more than you or they can handle then your tanking position isnt very good. Tankers tend to choose the place in which to fight and players act as soon as its good to reduce fight duration and damage mitigate in the process.

I have complained in the past when I have had offered a whole football field one side of a group. Someone still "needlessly" had to be on the other side, nearer extra groups. They get seen, they get attacked, its a mistake, and they may get debt for it which is an experience they but mainly the Tanker imo should learn by. If using a "dont pass the Tanker" fight point (which it is sometimes quicker to chance one than for a Tanker to have to pull away) once you find your with players that have no knowledge of perception, start pulling. Same goes for blind corners I have to simply start pulling. Most players have little knowledge of Taunt control and attack pre taunted and possibly get debt for not waiting that extra second, thats something for them to learn by but often a Tanker will say "Ready" to let people know when he has control, I like my Stomp for that. If people choose to be pre-emptive they can, in a risky circumstance, only hope measures are made intime to ensure they dont fall flat on their face

If you dont want people aggroing more mobs. Then dont fight so close to other groups. Be aware that extra villains can come from above in some places, around the next corner, in the room next to where your fighting or spawn. Think for the team.

If to get through a mission without a defeat takes a little more thought on the Tankers part then I am all for that.

Raising the aggro cap slightly may have its implications, 17 isnt a normal figure, its a odd figure not like a "lets make it 20" figure. For me there is a reason for that figure.

16 tripmines I believe could hit the entire 100 and so Id agree with keeping that figure down and no I dont find /devs unbalanced at all so lets leave tripmine rechg well alone

If I could with my controller hold a group of 100 for 1 hour I would but then with aggro cap at only 17, only 17 would want to attack me but 83 would still be held. Taunt duration limits an enemy to whom they can target. Its either there or gone.

Edit: I think I see what people are on about, I am talking about if you could apply a taunt duration to more than 17, with aggro cap, once you have 17 you cant effect more with the effect until one of the already had 17 loses it.

How bout! return it to Pre ED and see what happens! Gosh I have no idea what could happen!

/devs ftw! Tanker herds mission to the door where there awaits 16 tripmines...

Aggro caps effect all players not just Tankers btw

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aggro cap suits AoE caps fine. If someone pulls extra groups then maybe the herdpoint isnt offering safe ample range for others to get the best output of their attacks especially cones. Other than that people pulling extra groups have something to learn by.

[/ QUOTE ]

lets face it, in PuGs you dont always get the best companions to team with... and once one nut case aggros another group, if you cant get the aggro on you, then after it's defeated its agressor the mob will happily work its way through the rest of the team

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes then you kick the nut! Alot of peoples idea of tanking is, get a good build, run in and hit the boss and thats it. But no, apart from many other things its also "think ahead", "think for others" which is why I like to tell people what I am doing and hope theyd cooperate, its all to ofc make allowances for the LoS and perception of enemy on the teams behalf but if they dont the price maybe paid. In an atta cave I'll see a T junction, large group one side, but no large group the other as far as I can see, now if a n00b wants to run ahead of me and get planted by those around the blind corner then I will assume that is the case. No point compromising the rest of the team over an individuals mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
I think an increase in aggro cap would show the weakness of a fire tanks primary.

Other tanks would cope much more easily with bigger mobs

[/ QUOTE ]

You got numbers to prove that?

If you taunted a 100 for a one hour duration and the aggro cap was 17 then you will have only 17 looking for you at any one time and any unaggro'd but taunted foes will not be able to attack other players who cant exceed the taunt duration.

A greater ability to multihit with taunt of say 17 would make the need for gauntlet or taunt in the aura, for those with taunt, unnecessary. It would save a whole lot of n00b butts by preventing herdmessing on Break of LoS pulls. It would also mean that I can slot for 3 taunt duration, taunt a group to me, then have them firecaged and bugger off, leaving the team to it, safe in the knowledge that no one is getting hit.

Aggro cap suits AoE caps fine. If someone pulls extra groups then maybe the herdpoint isnt offering safe ample range for others to get the best output of their attacks especially cones. Other than that people pulling extra groups have something to learn by.

2 things Id like to say.

1) An amazing great effort. I give it *****
2) Your on the wrong server. The RP in you can be made stronger! When the time comes just transfer!

Glacial Blade, Ice/Axe iirc, Only 3*50s? *cracks whip*

Too much time on the forums...100 hours of grinding for best sets..best get going!

Scrappers, some can be first into the middle of the Rikti ship and do battle unaided for mins on end and, then go get a bomb drawing crowds with them, getting attacked whilst removing a grate, then getting attacked as they go and click a glowie bomb before returning to the middle of the ship and fighting totally without support, that is until they return to the middle. Some scrapper called Katalina who regards herself as "The worst scrapper on Union" was just doing that the other day. Therefore they can handle themselves.

Teams arent always made up of squishies and teams arent always made with adequate support versus enemy. The not taunting of some enemies in order to not overwhelm oneself without overwhelming anyone in team is a viable move if scrappers can take up the slack!

In teams, controllers, blasters, defenders are my concern. Scrappers dont often need me at all, not that I do much for them anyway, they share my AoEs sometimes, but even blasters and controllers have 'asked' for stragglers to be kept free so atleast they can have some fun. I dont do fun but sometimes I allow for it by allowing one or two strays.

Dont get me wrong I hate a single chance of an enemy hitting a defender, controller or blaster but if its a trustee scrapper its not normally in anyway compromising.

Those foes iirc, you didnt need a thing, once they clapped eyes on you they would follow you the entire map. Knives of Artemis versus my SR "OMG so many caltrops!" However Freaks only had so much interest. I went for herd 10 groups defeat 10 groups, keeping that many interested meant having to aggro again.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You really don't have a clue about tanking do you?

You don't have any concept of defense, aggro caps, taunt auras or even the basic principle of how aggro works

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
A very constructive post...Not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shannon, this non entity doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Like I said, I find it eye opening how, compared to the USA boards, there are so many flamers and juveniles that can't put forward a proper arguament so have to tell me how [censored] I must be at Tanking instead.

To be fair, I see the game from a different perspective than a lot of people on this side of the pond so maybe that's why I seem to antagonise them so much.

[/ QUOTE ]

US boards have the same thing, except if you made a post like yours you would probably have half the Tanker section agreeing with you and producing numbers for you because the expectations of a Tanker differs.

This thread is unpleasant. I dont see carrying on with it as a good idea. I think when you said you'd leave it. That was the right decision but you came back. Sometimes its best to go away, create numbers and dig up the grave with something convincing as you now know thats what people want but try to bear in mind peoples ideas of Tanker differ and expectations of Tankers differ.

[ QUOTE ]
on a side note, it's nice to see the tanker forum being active!

even if it is mostly just the usual posters posting more often

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things I dont like to see.

1) Too many people arguing with one person at once. Its like being launched at from all sides. I personally love it if its me.

2) Remarks like, "You cant be any good at "this" if you dont know "this".

3) When people are arguing about 2 different things thinking they are the same thing due to how its worded.

Edited: for my recount of 3

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and mobs don't stack on top of each other any more.


[/ QUOTE ]They do, at certain spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree with this, I have pics!! One with CE on 10 foes all in one spot. That was after ED, however I cant get jab to hit 5 anymore So ideas of stacking differs, another one for the pot.