New Dawn
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Posts
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Quote:Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I don't know why these types of threads don't end at this:
Taunt is a good tool for gathering aggro. If you find that you want/need to gather more aggro on to you, it is one of the best tools around for doing that. If you don't want/need to gather more aggro (i.e., you do a good enough job at it without Taunt), then it isn't necessary. It is a great tool for holding aggro, but not the only tool you will likely need. A Tanker with Taunt is not gauranteed to be a better Tanker than a Tanker without it, but it might make things easier.
Even this quote doesn't counter the idea that the most competent Tanker will have taunt. Taunt is something every Tank can get, similar or same is something other ATs can use to fill the role at the crucial moments where the role is welcomed, therefore it is something all Armour Primaries or be they Secondaries can be balanced around in part, and it offers an easy way to obtain balance in terms of what can be made successful and what can't be achieved. I don't care which Tanker I am on. Taunt was designed for Tankers, tanking. Other powers, they could of almost as easily come from another AT elsewhere.
In a courtroom you have a prosecution and a defense to try to establish the truth. For the life of me I can't see the most competent Tanker being tauntless. In taking all epics across all my Tankers I can try to find ways to substitute it only to end up with a "what if?" situation that destroys it. It's easier for me to find something a Tanker without taunt game can't do than it is for me to find something that a Tanker with taunt can't do.
The Devs can bring Tanking down to doing damage in melee with a targeting frenzy and taking damage passively but then all that will happen is we will see more and more designer teams where just because you have X type of Tanker you need Y type of Defender, and peoples valued concepts considered mere pity spot takers and what not. -
Quote:He doesn't have lieutenents he has minions (he said soOriginally Posted by Ideon
I've kept it for incarnate trials where it has its uses.
But in normal gameplay, I'll probably use it when exemplaring or tanking all of Recluse's lieutenants at the same time or something, haha.
). There is actually a way to tank all of them without relying on Unstoppable but "in part" relying alot on Taunt instead. Horses for courses, how do we want to do things? Ofc there would be especially as other sets can't get unstoppable.
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Quote:There is underperformance despite playing by design and underperformance from playing without any clue about design.Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
I can't even count the number of times I've had this experience over that last 7 years only on the Defender and Kheldian forums alone. I remember when anyone who said Kheldians were less than perfect prior to their overhaul got crucified, even though they were clearly underperforming and the least played AT in the game. Same thing happens all the time with FF, Sonic, and TA threads in the defender forums.
Don't get me wrong I could be "doing it wrong" when it comes to Sonic. I am one of those who are pro change with it, but I'll read posts where people show through their thoughts that they're not getting the set or what they should from the set even as much as I am.
With TA there are tweaks I could get behind but I have seen posts of people showing perhaps that all that doesn't have to be failed with TA as support is failed. People do not play in the best way or whatever and it's the set that's wrong. I see this on SWTOR, people saying Sentinels can't do something because they can't and the Devs have got it wrong, and someone comes along and post a Youtube video of them doing exactly what was said can't be done with a Sentinel. I dare say something is wrong in early stages anyway.
Forcefield is so maligned people skip half the set like its useless, when it's not and there maybe circumstances where some of that skipped part could of been an asset but people do not have it to find out. The one thing I can say with Forcefield is it is bumped by power build up much like the survivability of SR can be by Aid Self. A Dev touching Aid Self or Power Build up is doubtful because of the effects on other sets/ATs.
I don't like to see pages of people turning TA into something that has healing arrow. No one is doing that thank god, but again I'd draw the line at seeing it turned into another set too. I actually don't agree with taking one power of one set and comparing it to another power of another set. I am more for how the whole set works.
Providing ingame experiences of where TA didn't measure up is best. I've said in the past that by the time I have got all my debuffs down in one group there is nothing to attack with a secondary attack, secondary attacks weren't something I was using in a team and I also said how my TA was so easily staminaless due to long cast times, as it can recover end over the process of doing something so well. Lo and behold shortly after cast times reduce making me able to use the secondary also making Fitness pool just as desireable for TA as other sets. That was in the days of the european forums but we all doubt the Devs read anything there but I think ingame experiences can give balance reasons or allow people to discuss the solution to the problem. A Dev may go "hang on they're playing it right but.." or we may go, "well there is an obvious balance issue what would solve it?" without turning it into Dark Miasma. -
I'll be reluctant with /empathy
You have to be a controller to do /empathy
My problem is when playing with idiots, the kind of idiot empathy doesn't save. To start I've logged on as a controller, there to control and if an idiot wants to take on the uncontrolled masses rather than controlled masses then that's fine only healing him is not my job and who I fort is a matter of choice. It's not the endgame where I can fort 6 people its the leveling up. Anyone who believes they should be the centre of my universe is an idiot. -
Powerset wise anything but I do get gooey over having a TA about come to think of it. I just love seeing them.
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When the forums were split, US and Euro. I was on Euro, you could guarantee that the person who professed to have it all being tauntless would be on one of two servers. Then you could guarantee that you will run into them sometime and see how they did things. Then you could pretty much guarantee that you could change their minds. Rather than have 49 page long debate over it, things were simple. You could even offer to meet ingame for a tank off only to end up in an argument on what Tanking should look like. They might have ideas from other games when other games don't belong here.
This thread isn't about people saying to people they should get taunt or even that they would definitely be better off with it. I keep repeating that just because you have it doesn't mean that you will excel with it. What I believe is simple : the most competent Tanker will have it.
If people have an idea of what Tanking should look like in anygame and wish to stick to it then by all means do because Taunt isn't needed.
Conceptually I have no idea why the power Taunt is so powerful in terms of turning an improbable endeavour or a trainwreck of an effort around. -
Quote:Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
and a Tanker who takes Taunt but not his God Mode power is just straight up sad.
Yesterday I even saw a Tanker with Soul Mastery who had Taunt but skipped Darkest Night....wow.....just wow.....sigh....... guess he justs likes to play low lvls cause a high lvls DN would be much better than Taunt...seriously.
Are you serious?
But just incase: The god mode power is more valuable than taunt? I can think up reasons why you need to use the god mode power often and those reasons can disappear if you had taunt.
The reason to take Soul Mastery is Darkest Night imo but I would still take taunt.
Some people can afford to skip the tier 9, there are ways to live without it. Some people don't think a self res is of value to a tanker as they hardly die, some won't take elude because well it just plain unnecessary. Some people don't take unstoppable because of the crash at the end.
What most people have incommon is not finding the positives or ways to get around the negatives. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Player D
Just to throw in my two cents. I've had tanks with taunt and tanks without it. No one has ever commented one way or another. I can honeslty say it hasn't made one bit of difference. My playstyle and technique adjusts to whichever situation I tank in. And that's what the game is about... diversity, options, unique playstyles. No one has the right to tell anyone how to build their toons.
This. Let's look at this.
I don't go about my ingame life telling people to get taunt or how to play their tanker (unless I care about them). As you say no one has the right to tell people about their toons.
So I would be one of those who wouldn't comment on you, therefore I'd be one of those who haven't commented.
But whether or not you will ever realise or know the difference or the impact it has had on me as a team mate is another thing. You could be happy with what you did. You could of thought that there was no better way than what you did but I could believe different. I won't tell you different because of as you say no one has the right to tell people about their toons.
Just because no one says anything doesn't mean that there wasn't something that could be said or a better way to of gone about things. -
I'm not completely going against what you are saying Trickshooter but with Dark Miasma, the cast times are pretty long and then when ya just made somit the anchor someone (no matter how many times you tell them) can't help but treat it like you called "Target". You can fit 3 powers of TAs in almost in one of theirs, the endurance might be higher but atleast you've created a zone that some snotty nosed kid doesn't ruin.
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Quote:Taunt is in places resisted, sometimes its inaffective, but never is it always the case where hitting with an attack is it going to be better either. When it comes to damage you don't need every attack under the sun. You just need the best of them quick recharging. Most builds could afford to fit taunt in and still be damaging. Being damaging isn't the foremost important part of being a Tanker. No one invites a Tanker for their damage. Now I know that some people have seriously damaging Tankers, which would make the best tanks for people looking for PL but I can think of a fellow forumite in this section for one with one heck of an expensive and damaging build, I am not mentioning names but he still has taunt. He didn't skip taunt for some other actually skippable power like most people would. The thing with getting through anything in this game is that there is always luck involved, Taunt helps in that it can reduce how much chance of luck you want to give.Originally Posted by Jagged
Not at all but people are claiming the best tankers have to have Taunt which is pure BS.
Some people don't ever do PuGs, they'll have their team mates and basically have everything they need to not need taunt. People can be that way but its not usually fully adaptable. Often the difference is shown when two of the team mates are gone and perhaps two people arrive without the same tools. I personally don't do design a team. Some people are "we need a <insert AT with powersets> here. Tankers with taunt don't have to be like that.
I think most people in the know can think up situations where a Tauntless Tanker have from their limitations helped get people killed, and on the other hand I can think up situations where Tankers with their taunt and how they used it got people killed, just because you have it doesn't mean you will use it wisely. I'll be fair, I can see where and why, to me having the choice of both worlds, of acting tauntlessly or using taunt with a bit of common sense or more than that, when necessary, is better. -
Any power or any build, people either work well with it or they don't. Any Tanker, they all differ and what pleases people about Tankers differs.
All powers add some form of flexibility, in taking one power you miss out on a power that offers you something else.
I personally believe that in all the powers people take in a build there is always some power that was far more skippable than taunt.
I have every Primary, more than one of some. At no time did I find an excuse to skip it because of what pleases me.
Most of the people ingame for some reason or another prefer a Tanker with than without. You can usually make life alot easier for them and so they can for you. -
Quote:I would tank most every AV for way longer keeping aggro off a team and keeping damage off of a very not for the win team too, increasing their survivability way better.Originally Posted by Leo_G
I still don't know what this means.
What is 'out tanking' anyway? That the foes I'm engaging will be aggroed onto whomever is 'out tanking' me?
Well, control trumps aggro. I've been in numerous situations on my TW/WP Scrap where I just chain KD practically the whole spawn, just a matter of switching targets for your KD cones and a gracious helping of the PBAoE.
The only situations where its the other way around is vs hard targets that can't be mezzed, in which case, you can out tank someone with this one power...yay? There's a reason the scaling AS buff was revoked which helped stalkers kill those hard targets faster...it wasn't very useful in most of the game.
Like it or not I tanked the entire STF with a scrapper, with no support sets and this is repeatable. I can do the RV AVs without any support sets for a team using a Scrapper. I will go thru the entire list of Praetorians using a Scrapper so when it comes to Confront I am down with it let alone Taunt on a Tanker. You would have to defy game mechanics to offer the same level of plausible support with a Tauntless Tanker when without any support at all.
In my world I look at someones PB, they don't even have to have Glowing Touch, they'll do, I am now going to tank Ghost Widow for an unlimited period of time without worry of a Soul Storm or worry of being Black Holed, both of which a tauntless Tank could lose aggro. Scirroco the same. I'll see a Warshade or a Blaster and they'll suddenly be all it takes for support. Defenders, Controllers, they're great to have but no necessity.
Most teams do not need a Tanker. Most of them might believe that they do. Usually only when something really tough comes along where a Tanker would make things easier do Tankers become something you "could do with". No AT is a necessity and when these teams really can do with a Tanker often a tauntless one doesn't quite fit the bill for if it did then as eggs is eggs then its highly likely a Brute would be better or a Scrapper could of sufficed. Most Scrappers skip confront, half of all Brutes might skip Taunt, Taunt on a Tanker is really what seperates it from these other ATs which are literally up its backside in terms of doing the job for them. -
Quote:I can quite happily out tank people without Taunt. There we go!Originally Posted by Jagged
* For a very narrow "taunt-based" definition of "tanker".
Its a pretty trivial exercise for most tank primaries to aggro a cap-worth of mobs without Taunt. Once you've hit the cap you only become more capable by killing/arresting mobs and Taunt doesn't help you do that.
Then there is the fact that damage + taunt beats Taunt. In my opinion this can make Taunt a crutch for lazy players. Spam Taunt a few times and everyone thinks you are doing your job? Not really.
I would happily see Taunt removed from the game.
I don't have a very narrow idea of taunt. This what I see other people as having. However telling people how to use taunt is not something I see myself doing as its upto people to play their own way. If somebody has issue with Tanking something ingame its usually because they have limits. Limits I don't like. Limits most people don't like to see. I don't like limits at all which is why by and large if someone can't tank with their Tank then its wholly likely I would prove it can be done with a Scrapper at the same time removing all the support sets they failed to tank with, just to beat them over the head with how they could of done it.
Its almost like every now and then you have someone who comes to the Tanker section going against the grain with game mechanics thinking that someway somehow tauntless is better and there was that epic power which was somehow more important. I would like to see a Developer come along and say tauntless is better and then have them meet me ingame to prove it.
I really disbelieve it. It's only better if you are happier without taunt and despite whether or not you know what to do with it or not. I have never come across a tauntless tanker ingame that could do more than my tankers and actually have a 100% record of converting those who had. I am bound to find someone stubborn about it but overall on the whole taunt is an asset worth skipping some power for in my book. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Ironblade
"All tanks need Taunt." or "No one needs Taunt." is a fool.
With inherent fitness alot of Brutes thought wahey a 1 slot power, increase fury why not and it gets easier to fit the power in. Some people will claim that their build can't at all because everything else is much more needed but 99% of the time I doubt it.
I don't like the word need when people put a team together. I was on my Firetank and readying to do an MoLGTF for a pug ready made that I had no clue about and when they said about MoSTF, I still hadn't seen the team and wasn't fussed. I'm not great but I am in for a penny. I would of out tanked that tauntless Ice/SS btw
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Quote:Don't want to seem disrespectful at all but for me I am looking for people who would jump at that. Thats the only one I want to do and it looks like I would be transferring from my server to do it too, because I have been finding people. 6/8 lfm.Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
*shrug* Have fun on your server, then, I suppose. I guess the rest of what we can pull off means nothing in comparsion to not being able to form for an STF the one time we tried it.
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My Bad, posting at 2am and 6am, is sleep deprivation. I do apologise for being out of context.
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I have been thinking about transferring to Protector, as it is something of an unofficial Kheldian server? Things may not form for many reasons. I just wanted to know which it was. Lack of interest in that server for such a thing would make it no better than the server I am on so I would have no reason to move.
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Yeah you're looking at single target per power and I am looking at maximum number of targets per power using the dps readings from Mids. It's better to compare aoes to aoes and STs to STs really. Freezing rain is lol dps until you multiply by max number of targets and so for a single cast time you can do a decent amount of damage to enemy group.
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Quote:Do you mind if I ask why it was not meant to be? There is no record of it being done afaik so the very thing could be a first and a first is always good.Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
We attempted to form for an all Kheld STF, but alas, it was not meant to be.
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I did minor changes. Everyone gets moody with me so why bother:
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Anything can happen in Beta and be chucked in Beta to a point where whatever happened in Beta may not even count. I go by the website I first saw when I bought the game which described Blasters and the booklet I had which came with the game. It is well within a Blasters capability to not have melee damage, just look at Devices so, Ranged/Melee damage is not a good description at all.
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Thats all I been getting at Ironblade. I would gladly team with a tauntless Tanker, gladly do it without criticizing, never seen a point where a Tanker is needed really cos I do it with other alts, Doms, Controllers, Blasters, Pbs you name it all have something on offer that can turn a nightmare around.
I was expecting you to say something like "I have a Inv/DM with Darkest Night and get by!" for some reason and it is a power really worth having but it just comes at 41 when ya might of had to deal with a number of AVs prior like that Countess Crey.
If I could see Quicksand, Darkest Night and Conserve Energy all in one epic then there would be no other epic worth taking. Concept makes me take Fire epic on one of my Firetanks rather than me looking to be most flexible like take Earth Mastery or Soul Mastery so I myself do not hold people down to anything unconceptual but I still make up for any build shortfalls and many team dynamic shortfalls with my use of taunt. -
Quote:You're obviously percieving that I come to the forum to pick an argument and say things in all seriousness.Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Please stop trying to nitpick/pick fights with me. It gets old quick.
I'll leave you alone.
Touchy. -
Quote:I'm still wondering why EMP Arrow costs so much endurance. I saw Green Arrow use it on Smallville once and he didn't break into a sweat.Originally Posted by Redlynne
(and finally shoot).